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Author Topic: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other  (Read 67814 times)

jeremyrh

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2019, 12:18:34 pm »

Another one missing the point. Where was it that I was arguing against criticising, or mocking, public figures, including Trump?

Err you weren't. And nor did I claim otherwise.

However, on a more substantive issue, are you not appalled that your president should exchange pleasantries about their common problems with the press with a man who presides over a state where journalists are routinely beaten, imprisoned and even murdered? Or has political discourse in the USA  really reached a point where nobody cares about these things any more?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2019, 12:27:36 pm »

... However, on a more substantive issue, are you not appalled...

No, I am not.

That is called politics. You have to work with people and states you do not like. If not, no one would talk to anyone. Is there a saint state anywhere in the world? 

jeremyrh

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2019, 12:55:03 pm »

No, I am not.

That is called politics. You have to work with people and states you do not like. If not, no one would talk to anyone. Is there a saint state anywhere in the world?

Well, thanks for answering the question, anyway. I was going to write a longer response, but really there is no point - our basic values are too far apart.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2019, 01:17:21 pm »

... Dictatorships are not necessarily socialist...

No, but socialist are by default dictatorships.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #104 on: June 29, 2019, 01:30:18 pm »

Well, thanks for answering the question, anyway. I was going to write a longer response, but really there is no point - our basic values are too far apart.

Ah, yes, values...

As I wrote in another thread:

Quote
... politics is not some lofty activity of "caring for the common good," whatever that might be, as the really naive would like to believe, but politics is a brutal contact sport of promoting interests of your constituents.

Has Britain, for instance, not done anything shameful in its recent past?

As for your example about journalists in Russia (unless you were referring to Saudi Arabia?), why everyone in the West thinks Putin is behind every single individual case? What is happening to journalists is deplorable of course, but there are many players that can be behind it, besides him. It is a nation of 150 million, with many different interests, from local to federal, and many different players, from local mafia, to local politicians, local "biznismeni" to all those at the federal level. Too many people that might be annoyed by a particular journalist's writings. Given the general lower level of democracy and rule of law, it is too easy to take the "justice" in their own hands. I lived there eight years, and met many of those players first hand. Trust me, some of them were quite capable of snapping your neck for much less annoyance, like cutting them off in traffic, or not moving out of their way fast enough, let alone an article affecting them.

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #105 on: June 29, 2019, 01:38:49 pm »

No, but socialist are by default dictatorships.

Britain has had many socialist governments without becoming a dictatorship. Many would argue that some conservative governments have had that inclination more strongly.

From being a staunch conservative until the Brexit fiasco, which revealed both a stupidity and cynicism I had never expected, I find myself unable to write of them using a capital c. As for the rest, exactly the same. It seems there is no longer any point in political parties. The whole show should just be handed over to civil servants who will be no worse than the folks we have. But they may be more effective if we can keep the unions out of it.

The population just lost via an own goal.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #106 on: June 29, 2019, 02:15:58 pm »

Britain has had many socialist governments without becoming a dictatorship...

This is a new fad as of recently, to conflate socialism with certain parties, even when they have that word in their name, operating within a capitalist democracy.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #107 on: June 29, 2019, 03:29:03 pm »

No, but socialist are by default dictatorships.

Not true. 

Again referencing "The Usual Suspects".  Also, America frequently refers to Canada as "socialist", yet we are far from a dictatorship.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #108 on: June 29, 2019, 03:29:16 pm »

Err you weren't. And nor did I claim otherwise.

However, on a more substantive issue, are you not appalled that your president should exchange pleasantries about their common problems with the press with a man who presides over a state where journalists are routinely beaten, imprisoned and even murdered? Or has political discourse in the USA  really reached a point where nobody cares about these things any more?

The context is that Trump had for over two years been accused by the American press of conspiring with Putin and Russia during the 2016 elections. Yet after a two year investigation by Mueller, nothing was found.  Neither Trump, his family, or any other American for that matter was charged with conspiring with the Russians.  It was all fake. While I think Putin is a bastard, I can see why Trump feels the American press has done him and America a great disservice.  So his comments about the press said in front of his supposed conspirator is sweet justice to the press.  It has nothing to do with how Putin runs his country.  That's a separate issue. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #109 on: June 29, 2019, 03:35:05 pm »

Not true. 

Again referencing "The Usual Suspects".  Also, America frequently refers to Canada as "socialist", yet we are far from a dictatorship.
My understanding is that socialism is the government taking over the means of production, the business enterprises.  On the other hand, while high taxes to distribute wealth smacks of "socialism", it isn't exactly.  Of course when taxes become confiscatory, it's pretty hard to have the freedom to create businesses and enjoy the fruits of your labor.  So you wind up the same way as in traditional socialist countries - poor and unfree.

faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #110 on: June 29, 2019, 03:38:27 pm »

Neither Trump, his family, or any other American for that matter was charged with conspiring with the Russians.  It was all fake.
Are you familiar with the concept of conscious parallelism from antitrust law? It is another way to look at the behavior of his campaign vis a vis Russia. You might not agree that it is applicable, but it is something worth thinking about.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 03:47:43 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #111 on: June 29, 2019, 03:50:54 pm »

Are you familiar with the concept of conscious parallelism from antitrust law? It is another way to look at the behavior of his campaign vis a vis Russia. You might not agree that it is applicable, but it is something worth thinking about.
Explain the concept.  I'm not familiar with it.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #112 on: June 29, 2019, 03:56:34 pm »

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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #113 on: June 29, 2019, 04:03:53 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscious_parallelism

Cheers,
Bart
Thanks Bart.  But I don't want to read the article.  I want faberryman to tell me what the term has to do with Putin and Russia and the presidential campaign. .  How else would I know what point he's trying to make?

faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #114 on: June 29, 2019, 04:13:49 pm »

Thanks Bart.  But I don't want to read the article.  I want faberryman to tell me what the term has to do with Putin and Russia and the presidential campaign. .  How else would I know what point he's trying to make?
You would read the article and think for yourself. I know it is a lot to ask.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #115 on: June 29, 2019, 04:31:58 pm »

You would read the article and think for yourself. I know it is a lot to ask.
I don't respond to people who insult me. 

jeremyrh

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #116 on: June 29, 2019, 04:38:02 pm »

The context is that Trump had for over two years been accused by the American press of conspiring with Putin and Russia during the 2016 elections. Yet after a two year investigation by Mueller, nothing was found.  Neither Trump, his family, or any other American for that matter was charged with conspiring with the Russians.  It was all fake. While I think Putin is a bastard, I can see why Trump feels the American press has done him and America a great disservice.  So his comments about the press said in front of his supposed conspirator is sweet justice to the press.  It has nothing to do with how Putin runs his country.  That's a separate issue.

The fact that  you seek to  excuse Trump's failure to defend the free press and staying silent on the repression in Putin's Russia speaks volumes. Maybe it's God's Law to kill journalists?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #117 on: June 29, 2019, 04:58:42 pm »

... Again referencing "The Usual Suspects".  Also, America frequently refers to Canada as "socialist", yet we are far from a dictatorship.

Oh, for God's sake! The "usual suspects" are all capitalist democracies. Referring to some as "socialist" for rhetorical purposes does not make them so. There is this desperate attempt to make socialism more palatable to those who never experienced it, never learned what it is, and were hardly born before its demise, by falsely identifying it with certain capitalist democracies.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2019, 05:02:43 pm »

... Maybe it's God's Law to kill journalists?

The US President Frank Underwood killed a journalist.

Rob C

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #119 on: June 29, 2019, 05:08:54 pm »

I don't respond to people who insult me.

You just did.
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