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Author Topic: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19  (Read 4044 times)

Dan Wells

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2019, 04:57:16 pm »

There's still a role for backs (although I'm not sure either of the current systems has a great future). If you sometimes want to shoot with a tech camera (or any other contraption that isn't a "straight" body), but you also want handholdability, it's a shame to pay for the sensor twice.

Does the 907 (with the grip) show the way forward? A simple, lightweight device that provides control and a lens mount to turn a back into a mirrorless camera? It would be harder, but not impossible, if it needed to contain a focal plane shutter (does electronic shutter mean that it will soon be practical to have no physical shutters at all)?.

 A viewfinder would be relatively easy to add - it would need a video collection, assuming the finder was part of the body instead of the back, but little else.

There is no reason that a body that takes backs has to mean a body derived from a film-era design with a huge mirror that slaps and center-point only AF.

To work perfectly, the backs might have to be slightly different from what we have. The back would have to support PDAF, or the combination would be CDAF only (the AF processing would be in the body, but PDAF would require the right sensor toppings in the back, plus the right data interface).

It would be relatively easy to offer adapters for older lenses. Depending on what the lens mount on the body is, there should be plenty of space to offer Phase/Mamiya mount, H Mount and V mount adapters (any conceivable mirrorless mount could offer those) and possibly GF mount and/or Hasselblad X mount as well (if the body mount were shallow enough).
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2019, 06:30:23 pm »

I definitely intended the system as a whole.  The size of an H system with lens, battery, viewfinder, l-bracket is definitely different than a gfx 50s and same lens for instance.  At 100mp the current gfx camera body might be similar weight... but future versions I’m sure will be smaller.  Regardless, the shape of a camera makes a difference in handling too and how that weight sits in the hand. 
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BobShaw

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2019, 07:41:59 pm »

While there are lots of folks who talk about wanting to own a Hasselblad, the actual purchase of them hasn't been to the same level. 

The larger problem is the dealer relationships - the number of mis-steps by Hasselblad has hurt them.  For example, the CFV 50c, they never put it in dealers hands so folks could try them out on their Hasselblad cameras.  There needs to be one at every dealer, available for rentals & as a loaner unit - to the point where folks can experience them & decide it's the accessory that they've been missing.  Counter space is expensive & the training that the staff needs to best sell & support the cameras is important.  It's doable, but it is a business decision that Hasselblad has to make.

Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.
Do you have an evidence to back up the first sentence?
The X1D seem to have all been sold

As for dealers having stock sitting on the shelves, those people probably went out of business.
I was in NYC last year and B&H had some Hasselblad stock. That is the only place I have seen it in a long while. You always have to order. Even the distributer in Sydney (+4M people) does not have stock there. They have it in Melbourne and ship it up as required.
I bought my X1D having never held it. I bought my last Canon the same way.
Have the people queuing up outside Apple Shops to buy an iPhone on launch day tried it before?
Welcome to the 21st Century.
If you read the test results, specs, user guide and reviews you probably know more than the dealer anyway.
If you are lucky you can try them at roadshows.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 10:58:24 pm by BobShaw »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2019, 11:14:02 pm »

Do you have an evidence to back up the first sentence?
The X1D seem to have all been sold

As for dealers having stock sitting on the shelves, those people probably went out of business.
I was in NYC last year and B&H had some Hasselblad stock. That is the only place I have seen it in a long while. You always have to order. Even the distributer in Sydney (+4M people) does not have stock there. They have it in Melbourne and ship it up as required.
I bought my X1D having never held it. I bought my last Canon the same way.
Have the people queuing up outside Apple Shops to buy an iPhone on launch day tried it before?
Welcome to the 21st Century.
If you read the test results, specs, user guide and reviews you probably know more than the dealer anyway.
If you are lucky you can try them at roadshows.

I don't have evidence, I have anecdotal discussions with multiple dealers and I pay attention to the folks around me.  I've seen/chatted with many 500 series shooters, and there seems to be a mental block to purchasing a back for more than $2,000 or there about.  People won't do it - there's always an excuse.  Ever read how polling numbers go - no one ever says they'll vote against a school levy, but somehow the levy either fails or barely scrapes by the 60% required.  People say a lot that makes them feel good, but when it comes to cash on the table they make other decisions.  I know that the local rental shop is doing great business renting out their 503cx'es, and they'd be able to rent out a CFV-50c II more than a few times, but the cost of the unit prevented them from risking the investment. 

Order your 35mm gear site unseen and have fun - you can resell it for a minimal loss, as the marketplace is 500x larger.  Same with the iPhone, though no one has lined up for the last number of years - these are consumer electronics.

MF gear, especially when you look at $10-50k purchases really need to be held in hand.  There is no other way.  Ask a dealer what the return policy on a Hasselblad - they'll get any issues fixed, but it's yours.  It's a market that requires a lot of user experience & understanding to be successful.  Having stock is different to having a demo or a rental setup.  I don't expect to see a set of HC lenses just sitting there, but if you purchase today, you'd walk out with the one from rentals and in 1-2 days when yours shows up we would swap.  That is what a dealer does.  If a dealer doesn't move enough Hasselblad, or can't support a rental kit, how are you supposed to handle an emergency equipment failure?  Spares? Demos?  It's why I see the dealer relationship as so important.

Camera stores I've chatted with order gear in 1 of 2 ways: cash up front for inventory, or on terms based on the sale.  The camera store makes more money on the resulting sale when they do cash up front.  There are downsides for dealers when it come to rebates, where they have to wait for the mfg to cut then a check.  When they sell on consignment it's not like there is money on the shelf, but what then end up with as a margin is significantly less. 

Buying a camera, especially your first medium format camera based on a review is the worst possible decision.  It's either a puff piece from a mfg rep'ed photographer, or a reviewer who doesn't shoot MF commercially.  It has to work in your workflow, with your methods & you'll most likely have to change how some things are done.  The only way to do this is with experienced support.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2019, 04:59:43 am »

Whether we like it or not, I think the traditional dealer structure is a thing of the past for the simple reason that the traditional buyer structure is also a thing of the past. In the 90s, at the beginning of digital photography and digital MF, most buyers were professional photographers who needed the service of a dealer to set up a studio system for them, including tethering, etc...
At present, I think that most buyers a amateurs who simply want what they perceive is the best. They are not use to subcontract expertise work and may actually enjoy solving their hardware problems themselves. It simply is a different market.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2019, 06:51:16 am »

Whether we like it or not, I think the traditional dealer structure is a thing of the past for the simple reason that the traditional buyer structure is also a thing of the past. In the 90s, at the beginning of digital photography and digital MF, most buyers were professional photographers who needed the service of a dealer to set up a studio system for them, including tethering, etc...
At present, I think that most buyers a amateurs who simply want what they perceive is the best. They are not use to subcontract expertise work and may actually enjoy solving their hardware problems themselves. It simply is a different market.

*shrugs* the “traditional dealer structure” (what we would call value added partner)  is stronger than ever at DT. Ten years ago it was a four person company with a small office, now we are 25 full-time employees with big test studios in NYC and LA and dozens of events hosted through the country each year. About half our clients are professionals, but I don’t see the difference you’re referring to regarding their appreciation for things like expert advice, testing before purchasing, training, and support after purchase.

Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia. I would think that is relevant to whether the buyer is comfortable buying based on a brand name or whether they want to kick the proverbial tires.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 06:55:20 am by Doug Peterson »
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Rob C

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #66 on: June 27, 2019, 06:53:50 am »

I don't have evidence, I have anecdotal discussions with multiple dealers and I pay attention to the folks around me.  I've seen/chatted with many 500 series shooters, and there seems to be a mental block to purchasing a back for more than $2,000 or there about.  People won't do it - there's always an excuse.  Ever read how polling numbers go - no one ever says they'll vote against a school levy, but somehow the levy either fails or barely scrapes by the 60% required.  People say a lot that makes them feel good, but when it comes to cash on the table they make other decisions.  I know that the local rental shop is doing great business renting out their 503cx'es, and they'd be able to rent out a CFV-50c II more than a few times, but the cost of the unit prevented them from risking the investment. 

Order your 35mm gear site unseen and have fun - you can resell it for a minimal loss, as the marketplace is 500x larger.  Same with the iPhone, though no one has lined up for the last number of years - these are consumer electronics.

MF gear, especially when you look at $10-50k purchases really need to be held in hand.  There is no other way.  Ask a dealer what the return policy on a Hasselblad - they'll get any issues fixed, but it's yours.  It's a market that requires a lot of user experience & understanding to be successful.  Having stock is different to having a demo or a rental setup.  I don't expect to see a set of HC lenses just sitting there, but if you purchase today, you'd walk out with the one from rentals and in 1-2 days when yours shows up we would swap.  That is what a dealer does.  If a dealer doesn't move enough Hasselblad, or can't support a rental kit, how are you supposed to handle an emergency equipment failure?  Spares? Demos?  It's why I see the dealer relationship as so important.

Camera stores I've chatted with order gear in 1 of 2 ways: cash up front for inventory, or on terms based on the sale.  The camera store makes more money on the resulting sale when they do cash up front.  There are downsides for dealers when it come to rebates, where they have to wait for the mfg to cut then a check.  When they sell on consignment it's not like there is money on the shelf, but what then end up with as a margin is significantly less. 

Buying a camera, especially your first medium format camera based on a review is the worst possible decision.  It's either a puff piece from a mfg rep'ed photographer, or a reviewer who doesn't shoot MF commercially.  It has to work in your workflow, with your methods & you'll most likely have to change how some things are done.  The only way to do this is with experienced support.


Again, I have attempted to post a reply on my iPad and it has refused to stick! All that got through was the post, as above, to which I attempted the response. The iPad is at 98% charge...

Strangely, this present, brief message has obviously got through.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2019, 07:19:21 am by Rob C »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #67 on: June 27, 2019, 11:22:05 am »

*shrugs* the “traditional dealer structure” (what we would call value added partner)  is stronger than ever at DT. Ten years ago it was a four person company with a small office, now we are 25 full-time employees with big test studios in NYC and LA and dozens of events hosted through the country each year. About half our clients are professionals, but I don’t see the difference you’re referring to regarding their appreciation for things like expert advice, testing before purchasing, training, and support after purchase.

Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia. I would think that is relevant to whether the buyer is comfortable buying based on a brand name or whether they want to kick the proverbial tires.

I said that the traditional buyers had been disappearing. Quite simply if that is not the case in your area , your business may continue to thrive. Globally, however, the buyer structure has changed considerably, at least in Europe and in Asia.
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Rob C

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #68 on: June 27, 2019, 12:22:20 pm »

I said that the traditional buyers had been disappearing. Quite simply if that is not the case in your area , your business may continue to thrive. Globally, however, the buyer structure has changed considerably, at least in Europe and in Asia.

The incredibly vanishing dealership started a long time ago - late 70s/early 90s in my area (Glasgow, Scotland). My Hasselblad dealer stopped stocking them because he was removed from their list: he could no longer compete on price: he told me (I was a long-time client of his for 'blad and Nikon) that he could not buy from Hasselblad at the price that London dealers were able to sell to the public.

There was clearly a terribly uneven playing field going down. If you can sell more cheaply as a big dealership, that should be as an economy of scale, superior management and efficiency, not because the manufacturer sells to you at a lower price. That manufacturer is also shooting himself in the foot: people able to buy camers in that price bracket are not going to be dissuaded by a few pounds here or there, but not being able to touch the camera in the shop was a huge disincentive. Today, with a public conditioned to accepting lower standards of final inspection, sending bodies and lenses back until they get a good one, anything goes. We have all lost by some being so greedy.

Joe Towner

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #69 on: June 27, 2019, 07:19:45 pm »

We as a camera buying public have become greedy - the window shopping of retail stores to then go for the cheapest price online is a great example of it.  We want it all, and we want it yesterday, and at below cost.  There are times when it's easier/faster to just order directly something that a local store doesn't have in stock, but the I need it now has come in handy personally multiple times in the last month.

The dealer relationship isn't for everyone, you can most definitely go it alone, but for me & my clients, I need every tool I can get.
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TechTalk

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #70 on: June 27, 2019, 08:22:00 pm »

Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia.

Feeling a little passive-aggressive today Doug? Relax!

There's enough appreciation (and customers) for your company and Phase One in the photo community to keep you happy for a good long while. No need to imply that photographers that choose some product you don't sell don't care about performance and image quality.

Wish I was in your neighborhood. I'd buy you a beer and we could talk about the good old days in the business. I'm feeling nostalgic for a time when cameras had less automation and competition was given more respect.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
« Reply #71 on: June 27, 2019, 08:42:33 pm »

Feeling a little passive-aggressive today Doug? Relax!

There's enough appreciation (and customers) for your company and Phase One in the photo community to keep you happy for a good long while. No need to imply that photographers that choose some product you don't sell don't care about performance and image quality.

Wish I was in your neighborhood. I'd buy you a beer and we could talk about the good old days in the business. I'm feeling nostalgic for a time when cameras had less automation and competition was given more respect.

If that’s how you read my post then I was not sufficiently clear. My apologies.

 There are no shortage of cameras that offer very good performance and image quality today; in fact, you have to search pretty hard to find a camera that doesn’t. You can care a great deal about image quality and performance and arrive logically at a startling range of makes and models based on how you balance those two attributes with other perfectly valid priorities such as size, weight, ease of use, hand-fit, availability of specific accessories, existing familiarity with a previous model from the same maker (meaning less time spent relearning how to channel your craft through the new camera), and of course price. I even think that nostalgia, feel, appearance/styling of the body, and community belonging are perfectly good reasons some people might buy a camera

My point is that in targeting the high-end of performance and image quality, Phase One attracts buyers who will far more often treat the buying process a certain technically-oriented way, and in turn allows a value added dealer to offer more value to add. This makes for a plausible theory as to why P1 dealers represent a buck to the overall trend away from value added dealers and toward box stores, at least in the US market I’m familiar with.
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