Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs Ė and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: Joe Towner on June 18, 2019, 04:20:32 pm

Title: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 18, 2019, 04:20:32 pm
I really hope Hasselblad can generate some excitement around what ever they're announcing. 
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 18, 2019, 04:54:19 pm
I hope so as well but I have read several comments that a 100mp X1D should not be expected.

I hope these are not factual.

Iíd be happy if an H7D were part of the story but have little hope here too...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: onasj on June 18, 2019, 09:03:06 pm
- XCD zoom lens (long awaited)
- Black X1D mark 2
- V1D (!!!), black with chrome trim, a modern digital V that uses XCD lenses
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 18, 2019, 09:15:48 pm
- XCD zoom lens (long awaited)
- Black X1D mark 2
- V1D (!!!), black with chrome trim, a modern digital V that uses XCD lenses

Do you know the specs of these 2 cameras? Body color and presence of chrome is probably the one spec I care about least. :)

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: hexx on June 19, 2019, 02:36:58 am
- XCD zoom lens (long awaited)
- Black X1D mark 2
- V1D (!!!), black with chrome trim, a modern digital V that uses XCD lenses

Iíd like to see if V1D will be announced and at what price. Was intrigued by the prototype. If Hasselbladís twitter feed is anything to go by, thereís a chance of something like that, although a small one.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: mcbroomf on June 19, 2019, 08:15:19 am
Specs listed here at B&H
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1487057-REG/hasselblad_x1d_ii_50c_medium.html

And on DPR their take on it and the press release
https://www.dpreview.com/news/4385995693/hasselblad-launches-x1d-ll-50c-with-improved-handling-faster-responses-and-lower-price

And lastly the new body and back CFV ll 50C and 907X
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0860053743/hasselblad-updates-cfv-digital-back-for-v-system-film-cameras-produces-tiny-907x-body
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 19, 2019, 08:30:55 am
I really hope Hasselblad can generate some excitement around what ever they're announcing.

They have. Pricing is finally reasonable and the used ones will bring in new users.

Edmund
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 19, 2019, 09:07:02 am
Hum...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BAB on June 19, 2019, 10:51:26 am
Love the new EVF and new LCD brings the camera partially into a 2019 solution for me. Still on the fence about the usability of the AF, bracketing still an issue as well as Phocus Mobile very basic.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: hasselbladfan on June 19, 2019, 10:59:56 am
I am not in the 100MP league, so a better EVF / screen and a new CFV (with incorporated battery) will make my day. Just wish it would have come 2 years ago.  8)

The fact they call it 907 X, would this mean a 907 H will be coming for the HC lenses?
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 19, 2019, 11:28:57 am
I'm mixed at best with these announcements.  The X1D was announced 3 years ago, and this one is the same sensor, but with a faster cpu and better screen.  You have to wonder how many times they've pulled it back as it wasn't ready to announce - like every time the 'discontinued' status showed up on B&H/etc.  The USB-C is nice, but I am not seeing the ports on the camera & the lack of a wired shutter release until earlier this year was beyond frustrating (still not sure I can plug it into 2.5mm trigger).

The CFV II 50c is an interesting idea, especially with the plate 'camera' to accept the X1D glass. I make a point of acknowledging every V shooter I see, and I haven't seen many in the past few years. I expect it's the same landscape orientation only as in previous CFV's.  One thing they should steal from Phase/Fuji is the idea of baking different film emulsions in camera.  I hope the back is the same price as the X1D II - $5,750 - and the 907 plate is $500ish.

The biggest issue is I don't see how this camera body will get them from the 50mp to the 100mp sensor. Then again, would they take the X platform to 100mp without the H being at 150mp or better?

Please Hasselblad, going silent for so long is not good for anyone.  Keep talking, keep innovating, keep shipping & don't forget the H platform.

-Joe
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 19, 2019, 11:36:40 am
The fact they call it 907 X, would this mean a 907 H will be coming for the HC lenses?

I'm thinking they'll rely on the XH adapter for $350.  The XV adapter for $250 looks like it may be the real winner with these announcements - V looking back, V glass, without a temperamental body in the middle. A bag of a V body, film back, CVF II back, 907 plate w/XV adapter & a few lenses would cover every possibility & not be too heavy.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: pschefz on June 19, 2019, 11:49:44 am
glad there actually is an announcement....XD II sounds....ok...ish...biggest problem is that the fuji is probably still the faster at least as good camera for a lot less....
I just really think they should have come up with something to really make it exciting....some AF improvement....46% faster startup time is a joke....the XD1 might as well have a hand crank attached....rear LCD looks great but overall its the same sensor that at this point just isn't that much better then high end mirrorless....
really like the new back, we will see how much that is....

i would buy into the system if it had AF PD, 4fps...the size and the iPad tether (finally!!!!) is great and as much as i like HSS, central shutter makes things easier.....but not at the cost of all other short comings....

also: XD II + 35-75 is the same price as GFX100 + 32-64.....yes, not comparable in size and weight (although the 35-75 lens looks way too big for the XD body)....but there is just no comparing this XD II to the gfx 100...
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 19, 2019, 02:37:11 pm
So what is the shutter lag?

Edmund

glad there actually is an announcement....XD II sounds....ok...ish...biggest problem is that the fuji is probably still the faster at least as good camera for a lot less....
I just really think they should have come up with something to really make it exciting....some AF improvement....46% faster startup time is a joke....the XD1 might as well have a hand crank attached....rear LCD looks great but overall its the same sensor that at this point just isn't that much better then high end mirrorless....
really like the new back, we will see how much that is....

i would buy into the system if it had AF PD, 4fps...the size and the iPad tether (finally!!!!) is great and as much as i like HSS, central shutter makes things easier.....but not at the cost of all other short comings....

also: XD II + 35-75 is the same price as GFX100 + 32-64.....yes, not comparable in size and weight (although the 35-75 lens looks way too big for the XD body)....but there is just no comparing this XD II to the gfx 100...
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Gary Mulcahey on June 19, 2019, 04:35:19 pm
....but there is just no comparing this XD II to the gfx 100...

Unless you need/want a leaf shutter. Different tools for different jobs. I was looking at the Fuji and was seriously considering it. I like it. But this new Blad has me thinking. Not that money is not an object but you need the tools that suite your work and make your life easier and the leaf shutter does it for me.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 19, 2019, 04:59:35 pm
Unless you need/want a leaf shutter. Different tools for different jobs. I was looking at the Fuji and was seriously considering it. I like it. But this new Blad has me thinking. Not that money is not an object but you need the tools that suite your work and make your life easier and the leaf shutter does it for me.

Just use the H adapter for the GFX if you need leaf shutter lenses. A second hand HC 100mm can be bought very cheap and is an amazing portait lens with a sweet look that is also compact and light.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: pschefz on June 19, 2019, 05:36:01 pm
Unless you need/want a leaf shutter. Different tools for different jobs. I was looking at the Fuji and was seriously considering it. I like it. But this new Blad has me thinking. Not that money is not an object but you need the tools that suite your work and make your life easier and the leaf shutter does it for me.

you are correct....and there are 2 reasons i will look at it...i tried the XD1 when it came out and was really disappointed with the camera (and the lenses).....
i do shoot athletes on location and HSS works great BUT shooting 5fps AND HSS is tricky....using large modifiers and battery powered studio lights...HSS is no issue whatsoever 1fps or slower.....but at 1/1000s or faster at f5.6 of f8 with a large octa 6-8ft from the subject...in california sun...it gets difficult....
that is where LS is still king....BUT 2.7 fps is not really fast enough and AF is still pretty slow or unusable for these shoots....so it is great that the shutter and the flash can keep up but in reality 2.7 fps is probably just too slow and AF won't cut it (a lot of these sets can be manual focus, but once you are used to A7RIII like AF ease and speed.....)
iPad tethering is something i have been dreaming about and its finally here.....but it will probably come to C1 as well (pretty soon i hope)

and the price.....great that the body is more affordable....and i do like the back as well...seems like a nice combo to have....but lenses are crazy expensive...and i shot with a few....its not like they are in any way exceptional.....i would rate fuji glass higher overall and what sony is doing with their GM glass is wonderful.....and both fuji and sony are a lot cheaper.....

50mpix is enough for me, easier to handle anyway....
i guess it will come down to a sony announcement with a new sensor that will have higher DR, better high ISO, higher mpix count along with even better AF and all that will in the end make a better package, even if it means getting a math degree to fine tune HSS, flash power settings, exposure and f stop to get it all right for enough light at a fast enough exposure at 3-5fps...and never have to worry about focus again...ever...all tethered to iPad with C1 of course....for a fraction of the cost.....
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Dan Wells on June 20, 2019, 11:38:02 am
Why is everything still tied to the old 50 MP sensor? It's not even that it's 50 MP, which is plenty for most things - it's that it's an old, pre-BSI sensor. A fully modern 50-75 MP MF sensor could avoid the premium pricing associated with the 100 MP sensor, which may also have cooling questions (the big body of the GFX100 is partially to hold the IBIS unit, but I thought I had also read that power and cooling were part of it). Of course, Sony doesn't make a modern 33x44mm sensor other than the 100 MP, and there may not be the market demand for one.

There are presently four problems for any camera introduced using the 50 MP sensor - Z7, A7rIII,S1r, D850. Any of the four is capable of essentially the same image quality, with many more body features, and potentially a much more compact system. Hasselblad does have leaf-shutter lenses, an advantage in some applications. When (not if) a 65ish MP FF camera shows up using a slice of the 100 MP sensor (which is itself a slice of the 150 MP Phase One sensor, and the 26 MP sensor in the X-T3 is a small slice from one of these), it will almost certainly have better image quality than the old 50 MP sensor. From Sony's viewpoint, they'd rather make four physical sizes of the same sensor than an old sensor on an old process that competes in image quality with the very best of sensors one size smaller.

I almost wonder if the 50 MP sensor is already out of production - but Sony made a lot of them for some reason (maybe a big, later cancelled order for something we don't think of as a camera?), and they're sitting on a shelf somewhere, selling cheaply.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: faberryman on June 20, 2019, 11:49:26 am
There are presently four problems for any camera introduced using the 50 MP sensor - Z7, A7rIII,S1r, D850. Any of the four is capable of essentially the same image quality, with many more body features, and potentially a much more compact system.
Is a lesser magnification with a  MF sensor for the same size print no advantage over FF?
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: pschefz on June 20, 2019, 01:40:26 pm
Why is everything still tied to the old 50 MP sensor? It's not even that it's 50 MP, which is plenty for most things - it's that it's an old, pre-BSI sensor. A fully modern 50-75 MP MF sensor could avoid the premium pricing associated with the 100 MP sensor, which may also have cooling questions (the big body of the GFX100 is partially to hold the IBIS unit, but I thought I had also read that power and cooling were part of it). Of course, Sony doesn't make a modern 33x44mm sensor other than the 100 MP, and there may not be the market demand for one.

There are presently four problems for any camera introduced using the 50 MP sensor - Z7, A7rIII,S1r, D850. Any of the four is capable of essentially the same image quality, with many more body features, and potentially a much more compact system. Hasselblad does have leaf-shutter lenses, an advantage in some applications. When (not if) a 65ish MP FF camera shows up using a slice of the 100 MP sensor (which is itself a slice of the 150 MP Phase One sensor, and the 26 MP sensor in the X-T3 is a small slice from one of these), it will almost certainly have better image quality than the old 50 MP sensor. From Sony's viewpoint, they'd rather make four physical sizes of the same sensor than an old sensor on an old process that competes in image quality with the very best of sensors one size smaller.

I almost wonder if the 50 MP sensor is already out of production - but Sony made a lot of them for some reason (maybe a big, later cancelled order for something we don't think of as a camera?), and they're sitting on a shelf somewhere, selling cheaply.
this
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 20, 2019, 02:20:24 pm
Why is everything still tied to the old 50 MP sensor? It's not even that it's 50 MP, which is plenty for most things - it's that it's an old, pre-BSI sensor. A fully modern 50-75 MP MF sensor could avoid the premium pricing associated with the 100 MP sensor, which may also have cooling questions (the big body of the GFX100 is partially to hold the IBIS unit, but I thought I had also read that power and cooling were part of it). Of course, Sony doesn't make a modern 33x44mm sensor other than the 100 MP, and there may not be the market demand for one.

I almost wonder if the 50 MP sensor is already out of production - but Sony made a lot of them for some reason (maybe a big, later cancelled order for something we don't think of as a camera?), and they're sitting on a shelf somewhere, selling cheaply.

There's no intrinsic price incentive to do a new-gen 50 as the cost is defined by the surface and so would be the same as the 100. On the other hand, the old design and old process lines can run off the same chip indefinitely with zero investment and *increasing* yield.

At this point the 50MP chip is probably sold at less than a cutting edge 35mm design, and of course a loss leader chip provides a strong incentive for camera companies to keep selling it as long as they can - witness the Fuji 50R.

Edmund
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Dan Wells on June 20, 2019, 07:34:29 pm
A lesser magnification is an advantage, but an old, pre-BSI sensor is a disadvantage. From what I've been able to see from looking closely at prints from the Fuji 50 MP cameras and making prints from my own Z7 files, the two just about cancel each other out.

This is not to say that the 50 MP cameras are bad (at all)... Just about the same as the very highest resolution 24x36mm pixel monsters is darned good. Both are far more than good enough for most applications. It's just that they don't seem to have a unique advantage over those few 24x36mm cameras.

If it is a loss leader chip sold for the same price or less than a top 24x36mm chip, then it makes a lot of sense... Fuji can offer a camera that is somewhat price competitive with the 24x36mm pixel monsters and has an upgrade path to the GFX 100. They have a few extra build costs over Sony or Nikon, even if the chip's around the same cost. They aren't making as many of them, nor are they sharing a lot of parts with a cheaper, higher-volume camera (a few shared bits, and a lot of firmware, with the X-series, but not like the Z7 and Z6 or the A7rIII and A7III).

They're also running at a higher voltage, using a custom three-cell battery that's not really related to anything. There are several basic sizes of the usual two-cell battery, but a Nikon EN-EL 15b is a very close relative of a Canon LP-E6 or a Sony NP-FZ100, just as the smaller Fuji W126 is a relative of a Sony FW50 and several others. The Fuji MF battery (T125) is actually the same voltage as the D5 and 1Dx II batteries, in a much smaller package with a much lower capacity (mAh).

None of these things make a huge difference in cost compared to a Z7/A7rIII - that's why the GFX 50R can sell for as little as it does. Hasselblad is trying for a slightly different market, especially with the expensive lenses. Of course, the problem (for both companies) is that, once Sony runs out of however many old 50 MP sensors they have stockpiled, they either won't be willing to make more, or will charge much more for them. I wonder if I'm right that a big order (quite possibly from some three-letter Federal agency whose employees favor trenchcoats) might have gotten cancelled? If so, how many sensors is Sony selling as loss leaders?
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 21, 2019, 05:49:17 am
Dan,

 The 50Mp is a very old sensor. When the first camera with it got released, I think the Phase, images from the sensor were seen which were 2 (!) years previous. Now Fuji and Hassy are selling cameras with it, and these are just simple retools of an existing design, so basically it's all profit for everybody - chip run off on old lines, cameras with old designs.

I don't think they're using old chips necessarily because the Fuji version has a bespoke microlens/CFA covering, and also I can't imagine *anybody* needed a stock of 10K+ 50Mp chips for remote sensing, unless someone was planning to put a high-rez people recognizer on every street corner of every major city in the US, and the format and frame rate isn't right for that (I believe).

My belief is that these sensors continue to be made, their CFA possibly still might get tuned again - eg a monochrome version released as a "special edition", and when they get stopped in 2 years or so, the current 100MP BSI sensor will be the loss-leader legacy product. This strategy keeps everybody coming to Sony for chips, and gives MF companies an entry-price product which was sorely lacking.

Edmund


A lesser magnification is an advantage, but an old, pre-BSI sensor is a disadvantage. From what I've been able to see from looking closely at prints from the Fuji 50 MP cameras and making prints from my own Z7 files, the two just about cancel each other out.

This is not to say that the 50 MP cameras are bad (at all)... Just about the same as the very highest resolution 24x36mm pixel monsters is darned good. Both are far more than good enough for most applications. It's just that they don't seem to have a unique advantage over those few 24x36mm cameras.

If it is a loss leader chip sold for the same price or less than a top 24x36mm chip, then it makes a lot of sense... Fuji can offer a camera that is somewhat price competitive with the 24x36mm pixel monsters and has an upgrade path to the GFX 100. They have a few extra build costs over Sony or Nikon, even if the chip's around the same cost. They aren't making as many of them, nor are they sharing a lot of parts with a cheaper, higher-volume camera (a few shared bits, and a lot of firmware, with the X-series, but not like the Z7 and Z6 or the A7rIII and A7III).

They're also running at a higher voltage, using a custom three-cell battery that's not really related to anything. There are several basic sizes of the usual two-cell battery, but a Nikon EN-EL 15b is a very close relative of a Canon LP-E6 or a Sony NP-FZ100, just as the smaller Fuji W126 is a relative of a Sony FW50 and several others. The Fuji MF battery (T125) is actually the same voltage as the D5 and 1Dx II batteries, in a much smaller package with a much lower capacity (mAh).

None of these things make a huge difference in cost compared to a Z7/A7rIII - that's why the GFX 50R can sell for as little as it does. Hasselblad is trying for a slightly different market, especially with the expensive lenses. Of course, the problem (for both companies) is that, once Sony runs out of however many old 50 MP sensors they have stockpiled, they either won't be willing to make more, or will charge much more for them. I wonder if I'm right that a big order (quite possibly from some three-letter Federal agency whose employees favor trenchcoats) might have gotten cancelled? If so, how many sensors is Sony selling as loss leaders?
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: SrMi on June 21, 2019, 06:06:03 am
A lesser magnification is an advantage, but an old, pre-BSI sensor is a disadvantage. From what I've been able to see from looking closely at prints from the Fuji 50 MP cameras and making prints from my own Z7 files, the two just about cancel each other out.
<snip>

What is wrong with pre-BSI sensors, especially on FF and larger sensors? BSI is most useful on small sensors. Nikon has stated they use BSI more for speed increase than for anything else. When camera manufacturers switched from non-BSI to BSI sensor there was no noticeable difference in image quality, AFAIK.
Your claim that there is no image difference in FF and "crop" MF  opens a can of worms :-), a claim that probably anyone who owns both FF and MF cameras would strongly disagree.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: mcbroomf on June 21, 2019, 06:28:52 am
The main difference on the Sony A7R series from going to BSI sensors (when the A7R2 was released) was the edge and corner colour cast was eliminated on lenses with short rear pupil distances (typically wide angle RF type lenses)
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 21, 2019, 07:12:14 am
We happen to have a straight-shooting Fuji (and Hassy?) dealer here, Steve Hendrix, maybe he can tell us what people say about the 50MP generation sensor cameras as of now.

Edmund

What is wrong with pre-BSI sensors, especially on FF and larger sensors? BSI is most useful on small sensors. Nikon has stated they use BSI more for speed increase than for anything else. When camera manufacturers switched from non-BSI to BSI sensor there was no noticeable difference in image quality, AFAIK.
Your claim that there is no image difference in FF and "crop" MF  opens a can of worms :-), a claim that probably anyone who owns both FF and MF cameras would strongly disagree.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Rob C on June 21, 2019, 07:29:59 am
Unless you need/want a leaf shutter. Different tools for different jobs. I was looking at the Fuji and was seriously considering it. I like it. But this new Blad has me thinking. Not that money is not an object but you need the tools that suite your work and make your life easier and the leaf shutter does it for me.


Congratulations on a lovely portfolio!

Rob
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Gary Mulcahey on June 21, 2019, 08:18:36 am
Thanks you Rob!!That site is due for an upgrade.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Jim Kasson on June 21, 2019, 11:08:46 am
What is wrong with pre-BSI sensors, especially on FF and larger sensors? BSI is most useful on small sensors. Nikon has stated they use BSI more for speed increase than for anything else. When camera manufacturers switched from non-BSI to BSI sensor there was no noticeable difference in image quality, AFAIK.
Your claim that there is no image difference in FF and "crop" MF  opens a can of worms :-), a claim that probably anyone who owns both FF and MF cameras would strongly disagree.

I didn't see that Nikon statement, and IMHO, the big improvement in BSI sensors is drastically reduced CFA crosstalk. I saw that with the Sony a7 line when they made the switch. I think that BSI should be a huge improvement for MF with short, symmetric  lenses. The reason you see more BSI in small sensors is that it's easier to use that technique for small sensors.

Jim
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: pschefz on June 21, 2019, 01:07:46 pm
Your claim that there is no image difference in FF and "crop" MF  opens a can of worms :-), a claim that probably anyone who owns both FF and MF cameras would strongly disagree.
the difference between top of the line FF and this 50mpix sensor are very, very slim and for most applications not visible....
if anyone looks at the XD or GFX 50 cameras to go to a different level of IQ, it wont happen....
there are some areas where they might make more sense and if those applications aren't impacted by overall speed, AF and size/weight then there is a case to be made for a XD or GFX over A7RIII or other latest FF.....but even then the differences are very small and final format (3:4 vs 2:3) and that extra sliver of DR might be a deciding factor in favor of the crop MF sensors....

at this point these two new hasselblad announcements to me are a few years too late....i would love to have both the new XD and that back, along with a few lenses...as a MF system for higher IQ....and a high end FF for faster work....turns out the FF does both....for a fraction of the cost and in reality with the same IQ....not very sexy but.....

and this does not take into consideration that sony will have a new high end FF out in the next 6?9?12? months that will beat these hasselblads in IQ as well....and provide all other advantages.....for a fraction of the cost....and sexiness.....
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 21, 2019, 04:58:33 pm
The painful thing with the X1D II and the non communicating Hasselblad is that there may be nothing else for years.

Yes, itís a sweet camera today with very nice lenses, but arguably it doesnít expand the range of applications vs the original and progresses slower than both itís FF and small MF competition.

Since I still hope to get an H7D-150 to mount on my Arca at a fraction of the cost of the born broken IQ4-150, I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but honnesty speaking, I fail to see how this announcement contributes to securing the viability of Hasselblad as a provider of top end equipment.

It feels more like an acknowledgment of ďdefeatĒ... they are whispering to our ears.. ďthatís all we can doĒ.

They have not even attempted to add a joystick for AF control... this makes this update err on the side of tiny rather than minor. It speaks of extreme cost control rather than photographer satisfaction.

I mean, I wish them well and some fans seem happy so... letís at least hope that the camera will be bug free when it reaches the shelves.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: hubell on June 21, 2019, 11:32:34 pm
The painful thing with the X1D II and the non communicating Hasselblad is that there may be nothing else for years.

Yes, itís a sweet camera today with very nice lenses, but arguably it doesnít expand the range of applications vs the original and progresses slower than both itís FF and small MF competition.

Since I still hope to get an H7D-150 to mount on my Arca at a fraction of the cost of the born broken IQ4-150, I may be shooting myself in the foot here, but honnesty speaking, I fail to see how this announcement contributes to securing the viability of Hasselblad as a provider of top end equipment.

It feels more like an acknowledgment of ďdefeatĒ... they are whispering to our ears.. ďthatís all we can doĒ.

They have not even attempted to add a joystick for AF control... this makes this update err on the side of tiny rather than minor. It speaks of extreme cost control rather than photographer satisfaction.

I mean, I wish them well and some fans seem happy so... letís at least hope that the camera will be bug free when it reaches the shelves.

Cheers,
Bernard

Really, the answer is simple. If you want the stuff that Fuji is peddling, you should buy a Fuji. Anyone who buys an X1D thinking they will be getting an upscale version of an XT3 is sadly mistaken. Fortunately, the thousands of photographers who bought the X1D knew thatís not what they were getting, and thatís precisely why they bought it.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 21, 2019, 11:45:22 pm
Really, the answer is simple. If you want the stuff that Fuji is peddling, you should buy a Fuji. Anyone who buys an X1D thinking they will be getting an upscale version of an XT3 is sadly mistaken. Fortunately, the thousands of photographers who bought the X1D knew thatís not what they were getting, and thatís precisely why they bought it.


Hassy could speed up its camera a bit, there's no shame in a camera actually taking a picture sooner rather than later.

Edmund
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: TechTalk on June 21, 2019, 11:57:52 pm

Hassy could speed up its camera a bit, there's no shame in a camera actually taking a picture sooner rather than later.

Edmund

You must have missed it. They announced an upgraded camera called the X1D II that does what you suggest a couple of days ago.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 22, 2019, 12:25:02 am
Really, the answer is simple. If you want the stuff that Fuji is peddling, you should buy a Fuji. Anyone who buys an X1D thinking they will be getting an upscale version of an XT3 is sadly mistaken. Fortunately, the thousands of photographers who bought the X1D knew thatís not what they were getting, and thatís precisely why they bought it.

You're the one bringing Fuji into this discussion.

But ok, there are 3 things that come to my mind:
1. As a now happy H6D-100c owner, I would like to get updates about the future of the H platform. Nothing has been released for 2 years and their main competitors announced a 150mp back 10 months ago. Even if they don't have a product ready to ship (P1 still isn't ready to ship anyway although they have been shipping for months a non fully functional camera), it wouldn't have been easy for them to communicate about the platform, but they didn't, hence the "non-communicating".
2. As a Hasselblad customer, I want to be reassured that the company continues to invest, and when I see that they didn't even want to redesign the back of the X1D to add a joystick to speed up AF point selection, probably due to concerns about die mold costs, I am not reassured,
3. Finally, I can understand that Hasselblad isn't able to reuse components developed for larger volume platforms, but you must be aware about the fact that the world keeps evolving. When the X1D was released, Fuji also only had contrast AF. This isn't the case any longer. So yes, X1D customer accepted the limitation of the AF of their camera... but there was nothing better at the time. I would agree that the GFX100 isn't in the same category as the X1D/GFX50 since its much more bulky and that as we speak all compact MF bodies still only feature contrast AF, but we all know that the GFX50 II will most probably get on sensor PDAF also and it cannot be more than a few months away.

I am not a Fuji customer poking fun at Hasselblad. I am a customer of both companies who is worried about his very high investment in Hasselblad.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BobShaw on June 22, 2019, 03:27:46 am
To me at least, what Hasselblad has announced makes huge sense.

Those people who invested a lot of money to buy a CFV back to supercharge a horse have been rewarded for their nostalgic tear in eye love of the 50 year old square format V series with a new body and the ability to use not just V series lenses but X and even H series as well. If you were looking for a portrait format camera then the 500 series was never that.

Those who bought the X1D have probably been very happy with their purchase. The new model is faster and has a built in GPS allowing GPS with flash. Both good things. If you can't afford the X series lenses, of which there are now a lot, then you can still use your H series or V series, or even X pan lenses. Lots of choice really and for landscape the Canon Tilt shift lenses.  A zoom is a welcome addition. I haven't tried the new Phocus Mobile yet but apparently it has more features. I never found it lacking features anyway. I shoot tethered to a MacBook while the customer monitors and rates on the iPad. Direct to an iPad or iPhone is fine for me.

If you need 100MP or more then you have the H6. I don't think that there will huge developments in these huge cameras going forward. The design will just get minor refinements.

If you truly need a camera to photograph athletes then unless they are standing still at the finish line then you are in the wrong part of the forum. Buy a Canon or Nikon.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 22, 2019, 04:49:51 am
Yes, giving access to X1D lenses to CFV back owners is a smart move.

Itís a great way to optimize existing assets with minimal investment.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: faberryman on June 22, 2019, 08:49:05 am
Yes, giving access to X1D lenses to CFV back owners is a smart move. It’s a great way to optimize existing assets with minimal investment.
With no price announced, we do not know whether it is a "minimal investment" or not.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Rob C on June 22, 2019, 09:17:53 am
And as with all of these matters, it comes down to what the individual's business - or private wallet - can afford.

But having nothing more than what you need to get the job done is not always the point. Though I might have been doing a studio shoot on Nikon was no reason not to keep the Hasselblads and lenses on open display: some clients were informed about these things, and took notice, sometimes just by looking, but often by questions about why not use them instead of the camera actually being operated. When both are obviously available, your replies are taken at face value, not as excuses for something you can't afford to have. Confidence matters greatly in business, probably more than anything else. Hence the Mercedes, Jaguar etc.

Rob
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 22, 2019, 09:18:12 am
With no price announced, we don not know whether it is a "minimal investment" or not.

The investment is minimal for Hasselblad... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: hubell on June 22, 2019, 09:35:16 am
You're the one bringing Fuji into this discussion.

...you must be aware about the fact that the world keeps evolving. When the X1D was released, Fuji also only had contrast AF. This isn't the case any longer. So yes, X1D customer accepted the limitation of the AF of their camera... but there was nothing better at the time. I would agree that the GFX100 isn't in the same category as the X1D/GFX50 since its much more bulky and that as we speak all compact MF bodies still only feature contrast AF, but we all know that the GFX50 II will most probably get on sensor PDAF also and it cannot be more than a few months away.

I am not a Fuji customer poking fun at Hasselblad. I am a customer of both companies who is worried about his very high investment in Hasselblad.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, I brought Fuji into the discussion. Until Fuji entered the medium format market, photographers  understood and accepted that you didnít buy a medium format camera expecting to get the kind of ďfeature richĒ experience that you would get with a Sony or Canikon or whatever. (Thankfully, IMO.)Fuji changed the landscape overnight. Fuji is trying to import into the medium format market the same features, menus and overall Gestalt as you would find in its APS-C cameras. So, what happened to the two major existing players in medium format digital? Phase essentially left town. Hasselblad has chosen a different path, by creating the X1D and now refining the X1D, which offers a clear and distinct alternative to what Fuji is offering, particularly in the GFX 100. This is GOOD! There is still a choice for those who arenít interested in the GFX line and what FUJi is trying to offer. I bet that if you polled 1,000 buyers of the X1D and asked them what was the single most important feature of the original that they did not want to change in the Mark II, 1,000 would have said the form factor. If the choice is between IBIS with a bigger camera and no IBIS with the same body, 1,000 would vote for the latter.
BTW, if the Fuji GFX 50S/R II uses the same Sony 50 MP sensor, how can they offer on sensor
PDAF? 
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: faberryman on June 22, 2019, 09:38:56 am
BTW, if the Fuji GFX 50S/R II uses the same Sony 50 MP sensor, how can they offer on sensor PDAF?
Upcoming PDAF is for the GFX100, not the GFX50S/50R.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: eronald on June 22, 2019, 11:20:50 am
You must have missed it. They announced an upgraded camera called the X1D II that does what you suggest a couple of days ago.

So what is shutter lag now? Nobody seems willing to say

Edmund
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: SrMi on June 22, 2019, 01:33:42 pm
So what is shutter lag now? Nobody seems willing to say

Edmund

Shutter lag was not bad with Mark I and should be improved with Mark II. More bothersome was the blackout after the shot. The blackout should have been improved with Mark II as well. I think we need to wait until X1D II ships with final firmware before we can read about the shutter-lag.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 22, 2019, 05:15:32 pm
Upcoming PDAF is for the GFX100, not the GFX50S/50R.

There are 2 options
- integration of the 100mp part in the compact form factor body that I called misleadingly GFX50 II. The fact that Fuji has decided to package the 102mp part in a higher end GFX100 does not necessarily mean that it could be used in a more compact body, for example without IBIS,

- modification of the 50mp part to add pdaf. I am not sure whether Fuji can do this with sensor toppings changes alone or whether a modification of the sensor base is needed. My understanding, but I could be wrong, is that pdaf is implemented in a layer on top of the sensels ans not in them, which is a key difference with the approach used by Canon?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BobShaw on June 23, 2019, 12:46:31 am
Shutter lag was not bad with Mark I and should be improved with Mark II. More bothersome was the blackout after the shot. The blackout should have been improved with Mark II as well. I think we need to wait until X1D II ships with final firmware before we can read about the shutter-lag.
Here is a video test shoot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct_jNFwDN2U&frags=wn

If you are doing tripod work then the MQ mode on the old camera really speeds it up.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 23, 2019, 05:57:23 pm
Those people who invested a lot of money to buy a CFV back to supercharge a horse have been rewarded for their nostalgic tear in eye love of the 50 year old square format V series with a new body and the ability to use not just V series lenses but X and even H series as well. If you were looking for a portrait format camera then the 500 series was never that.

My understanding is the only back able to use the 907x is the new CFV 50c II model with the additional pins to support the camera to lens communication.  As to a 'portrait' camera, Phase did quite well selling a back that could be rotated into that orientation, while film shooters would just crop accordingly.

Given the frame rate limitations on the legacy 50mp chip, doing things like adding PDAF or increasing the bandwidth for more fps just isn't profitable for Sony.  I wonder what the next Sony roadmap will entail - given they've doubled the resolution on the largest MF camera (80mp CCD to 150mp CMOS).  Hopefully these two most recent chips will get 2+ years before a next gen comes out.

Hasselblad has a lot of work to do around both platforms, and will need to invest in their dealers to accomplish their goals.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BobShaw on June 23, 2019, 08:01:08 pm
Hasselblad has a lot of work to do around both platforms, and will need to invest in their dealers to accomplish their goals.
No doubt there will be a trade-in program as there is on the H series.
I think that they will sell every one of these that they make.
It was not the long ago that people could only dream of owning a Hasselblad as they cost the price of a pretty good car.
Now even enthusiasts can buy one if they want.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 23, 2019, 10:52:48 pm
While there are lots of folks who talk about wanting to own a Hasselblad, the actual purchase of them hasn't been to the same level. 

The larger problem is the dealer relationships - the number of mis-steps by Hasselblad has hurt them.  For example, the CFV 50c, they never put it in dealers hands so folks could try them out on their Hasselblad cameras.  There needs to be one at every dealer, available for rentals & as a loaner unit - to the point where folks can experience them & decide it's the accessory that they've been missing.  Counter space is expensive & the training that the staff needs to best sell & support the cameras is important.  It's doable, but it is a business decision that Hasselblad has to make.

Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 23, 2019, 11:03:45 pm
Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.

Very much my feeling also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Kirk_C on June 24, 2019, 04:17:36 am
Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.

I don't see a future for the H platform and I'd be surprised in Hasselblad does either.

Hence the development to support the classics and the XD II while they develop the H series replacement, IMHO.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2019, 06:04:15 am
I don't see a future for the H platform and I'd be surprised in Hasselblad does either.

Hence the development to support the classics and the XD II while they develop the H series replacement, IMHO.

Frankly speaking, tech camera usage is pretty much the only use case that still makes sense for 6x45 sensor in a post GFX100 world.

I agree that the H platform is probably dead as a competitive camera platform for productive work (just like the XF platform btw), but I still would like Hasselblad to release an H7D-150 back.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on June 24, 2019, 09:07:06 am
Ive loved the H platform, own one,  and have used the H for years.  However, when shot side by side to a modern Mirrorless camera with IBIS and 1/4 the weight....it really starts feeling like a dinosaur.  I was fine with all the downsides of an H...but lately itís feeling time to modernize.  More and more so as Mirrorless gets better. 
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 24, 2019, 09:59:08 am
While there are lots of folks who talk about wanting to own a Hasselblad, the actual purchase of them hasn't been to the same level. 

The larger problem is the dealer relationships - the number of mis-steps by Hasselblad has hurt them.  For example, the CFV 50c, they never put it in dealers hands so folks could try them out on their Hasselblad cameras.  There needs to be one at every dealer, available for rentals & as a loaner unit - to the point where folks can experience them & decide it's the accessory that they've been missing.  Counter space is expensive & the training that the staff needs to best sell & support the cameras is important.  It's doable, but it is a business decision that Hasselblad has to make.

Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.


There have been very very serious mis-steps with the dealer relationships, at least from the standpoint of most of their previous and remaining dealers. To the extent that I would not call them mis-steps but intentional re-directs and business model changes. If you value a strong dealer channel, you don't cut your dealer margins to less than half of what they were previously. You do not sell against them. You do not pool assets to one primary distribution resource at the expense of the remaining channel. These are not missteps, but intentional course changes that ultimately may or may not be helpful to Hasselblad. That remains to be seen.

With that said, it is not incumbent upon the manufacturer to provide "loaners" to dealers. It is incumbent upon dealers to purchase demonstration equipment. It is also incumbent upon dealers to educate themselves on the product and to provide a robust support mechanism for clients purchasing that equipment. For that (minimally), it is helpful if the manufacturer is knowledgable and accessible to augment the learning path that the dealers themselves have already embarked upon. To sell high end products requires a sincere and serious commitment from the dealer. It should be a partnership.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: SrMi on June 24, 2019, 10:32:40 am
Ive loved the H platform, own one,  and have used the H for years.  However, when shot side by side to a modern Mirrorless camera with IBIS and 1/4 the weight....it really starts feeling like a dinosaur.  I was fine with all the downsides of an H...but lately itís feeling time to modernize.  More and more so as Mirrorless gets better.

Fuji GFX 100: 1400g
Hasselblad H6D-100c: 1655g

Mirrorless is not really 1/4 the weight and note that Hasselblad has a larger sensor. I wish there would be a lighter mirrorless 100Mp camera (maybe with no IBIS, no video).
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Jim Kasson on June 24, 2019, 11:45:53 am
Fuji GFX 100: 1400g
Hasselblad H6D-100c: 1655g

Fuji 120/4 macro: 980 g
HC 120/4 macro: 1410 g

Fuji 45: 490 g
HC 50: 975 g

Fuji 32-64: 875 g
HC 50-110: 1.65kg
HCD 35-90: 1.4 kg

Fuji 250: 1.4 kg
HC 300: 2.12 kg



Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: SrMi on June 24, 2019, 12:10:46 pm
Fuji 120/4 macro: 980 g
HC 120/4 macro: 1410 g

Fuji 45: 490 g
HC 50: 975 g

Fuji 32-64: 875 g
HC 50-110: 1.65kg
HCD 35-90: 1.4 kg

Fuji 250: 1.4 kg
HC 300: 2.12 kg

TonyVentourisPhotography talked about camera weight, but he probably meant system weight. Maybe he was comparing m43 with MF as well?

Yep the lenses are heavier, still far away from 1/4 weight claim :-), even though we are comparing a larger (H6D) to a smaller (GFX) sensor camera.

It is a pity that Fuji did not launch a smaller and lighter 100Mp camera (maybe without IBIS and video). Looking forward to your posts about GFX100.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: George_Cleansman on June 24, 2019, 12:21:41 pm
The H-System is my favorite Hasselblad camera. The H6D-100c is not so heavy and well balanced with most of my lenses from 24mm to 150mm. The optical viewfinder is much more better than every EVF. I think the H-System do have a future for Hasselblad. If we need an expensive 150 MP Back - I think not.  :D
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Jim Kasson on June 24, 2019, 12:28:16 pm
TonyVentourisPhotography talked about camera weight, but he probably meant system weight. Maybe he was comparing m43 with MF as well?

Yep the lenses are heavier, still far away from 1/4 weight claim :-), even though we are comparing a larger (H6D) to a smaller (GFX) sensor camera.

It is a pity that Fuji did not launch a smaller and lighter 100Mp camera (maybe without IBIS and video). Looking forward to your posts about GFX100.

The weight differences were significant enough to me that I sold all of my H system gear soon after I started using the GFX.

I agree with you on the GFX 100 design choices. I'm hoping to have mine at the end of the week.

Jim
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2019, 03:14:32 pm
Fuji 120/4 macro: 980 g
HC 120/4 macro: 1410 g

Fuji 45: 490 g
HC 50: 975 g

Fuji 32-64: 875 g
HC 50-110: 1.65kg
HCD 35-90: 1.4 kg

Fuji 250: 1.4 kg
HC 300: 2.12 kg

Indeed, the one exception being the portrait lens.

Fuji 110: 1010 gr
HC 100: 780 gr

But the HC is a much more simple design that is not that well corrected.

Now looking at it from another perspective, it means that shooting portrait with a leaf shutter lens on the GFX through the adapter has little weight penalty.

The Hasselblad 100mm f2.2 is likely to remain a collector lens for this reason. Thatís the only HC lens I bought new in its latest orange dot version enabling 1/1000s synchro for this very reason. ;)

This being said the Fuji is probably a much better lens and oof highlights are likely to be nicer on the non leaf shutter optic,

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Dan Wells on June 24, 2019, 04:57:16 pm
There's still a role for backs (although I'm not sure either of the current systems has a great future). If you sometimes want to shoot with a tech camera (or any other contraption that isn't a "straight" body), but you also want handholdability, it's a shame to pay for the sensor twice.

Does the 907 (with the grip) show the way forward? A simple, lightweight device that provides control and a lens mount to turn a back into a mirrorless camera? It would be harder, but not impossible, if it needed to contain a focal plane shutter (does electronic shutter mean that it will soon be practical to have no physical shutters at all)?.

 A viewfinder would be relatively easy to add - it would need a video collection, assuming the finder was part of the body instead of the back, but little else.

There is no reason that a body that takes backs has to mean a body derived from a film-era design with a huge mirror that slaps and center-point only AF.

To work perfectly, the backs might have to be slightly different from what we have. The back would have to support PDAF, or the combination would be CDAF only (the AF processing would be in the body, but PDAF would require the right sensor toppings in the back, plus the right data interface).

It would be relatively easy to offer adapters for older lenses. Depending on what the lens mount on the body is, there should be plenty of space to offer Phase/Mamiya mount, H Mount and V mount adapters (any conceivable mirrorless mount could offer those) and possibly GF mount and/or Hasselblad X mount as well (if the body mount were shallow enough).
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: TonyVentourisPhotography on June 24, 2019, 06:30:23 pm
I definitely intended the system as a whole.  The size of an H system with lens, battery, viewfinder, l-bracket is definitely different than a gfx 50s and same lens for instance.  At 100mp the current gfx camera body might be similar weight... but future versions Iím sure will be smaller.  Regardless, the shape of a camera makes a difference in handling too and how that weight sits in the hand. 
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: BobShaw on June 24, 2019, 07:41:59 pm
While there are lots of folks who talk about wanting to own a Hasselblad, the actual purchase of them hasn't been to the same level. 

The larger problem is the dealer relationships - the number of mis-steps by Hasselblad has hurt them.  For example, the CFV 50c, they never put it in dealers hands so folks could try them out on their Hasselblad cameras.  There needs to be one at every dealer, available for rentals & as a loaner unit - to the point where folks can experience them & decide it's the accessory that they've been missing.  Counter space is expensive & the training that the staff needs to best sell & support the cameras is important.  It's doable, but it is a business decision that Hasselblad has to make.

Unfortunately I see all the work Hass will put into the X & CFV platforms comes at a cost to the H platform.
Do you have an evidence to back up the first sentence?
The X1D seem to have all been sold

As for dealers having stock sitting on the shelves, those people probably went out of business.
I was in NYC last year and B&H had some Hasselblad stock. That is the only place I have seen it in a long while. You always have to order. Even the distributer in Sydney (+4M people) does not have stock there. They have it in Melbourne and ship it up as required.
I bought my X1D having never held it. I bought my last Canon the same way.
Have the people queuing up outside Apple Shops to buy an iPhone on launch day tried it before?
Welcome to the 21st Century.
If you read the test results, specs, user guide and reviews you probably know more than the dealer anyway.
If you are lucky you can try them at roadshows.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 26, 2019, 11:14:02 pm
Do you have an evidence to back up the first sentence?
The X1D seem to have all been sold

As for dealers having stock sitting on the shelves, those people probably went out of business.
I was in NYC last year and B&H had some Hasselblad stock. That is the only place I have seen it in a long while. You always have to order. Even the distributer in Sydney (+4M people) does not have stock there. They have it in Melbourne and ship it up as required.
I bought my X1D having never held it. I bought my last Canon the same way.
Have the people queuing up outside Apple Shops to buy an iPhone on launch day tried it before?
Welcome to the 21st Century.
If you read the test results, specs, user guide and reviews you probably know more than the dealer anyway.
If you are lucky you can try them at roadshows.

I don't have evidence, I have anecdotal discussions with multiple dealers and I pay attention to the folks around me.  I've seen/chatted with many 500 series shooters, and there seems to be a mental block to purchasing a back for more than $2,000 or there about.  People won't do it - there's always an excuse.  Ever read how polling numbers go - no one ever says they'll vote against a school levy, but somehow the levy either fails or barely scrapes by the 60% required.  People say a lot that makes them feel good, but when it comes to cash on the table they make other decisions.  I know that the local rental shop is doing great business renting out their 503cx'es, and they'd be able to rent out a CFV-50c II more than a few times, but the cost of the unit prevented them from risking the investment. 

Order your 35mm gear site unseen and have fun - you can resell it for a minimal loss, as the marketplace is 500x larger.  Same with the iPhone, though no one has lined up for the last number of years - these are consumer electronics.

MF gear, especially when you look at $10-50k purchases really need to be held in hand.  There is no other way.  Ask a dealer what the return policy on a Hasselblad - they'll get any issues fixed, but it's yours.  It's a market that requires a lot of user experience & understanding to be successful.  Having stock is different to having a demo or a rental setup.  I don't expect to see a set of HC lenses just sitting there, but if you purchase today, you'd walk out with the one from rentals and in 1-2 days when yours shows up we would swap.  That is what a dealer does.  If a dealer doesn't move enough Hasselblad, or can't support a rental kit, how are you supposed to handle an emergency equipment failure?  Spares? Demos?  It's why I see the dealer relationship as so important.

Camera stores I've chatted with order gear in 1 of 2 ways: cash up front for inventory, or on terms based on the sale.  The camera store makes more money on the resulting sale when they do cash up front.  There are downsides for dealers when it come to rebates, where they have to wait for the mfg to cut then a check.  When they sell on consignment it's not like there is money on the shelf, but what then end up with as a margin is significantly less. 

Buying a camera, especially your first medium format camera based on a review is the worst possible decision.  It's either a puff piece from a mfg rep'ed photographer, or a reviewer who doesn't shoot MF commercially.  It has to work in your workflow, with your methods & you'll most likely have to change how some things are done.  The only way to do this is with experienced support.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: landscapephoto on June 27, 2019, 04:59:43 am
Whether we like it or not, I think the traditional dealer structure is a thing of the past for the simple reason that the traditional buyer structure is also a thing of the past. In the 90s, at the beginning of digital photography and digital MF, most buyers were professional photographers who needed the service of a dealer to set up a studio system for them, including tethering, etc...
At present, I think that most buyers a amateurs who simply want what they perceive is the best. They are not use to subcontract expertise work and may actually enjoy solving their hardware problems themselves. It simply is a different market.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 27, 2019, 06:51:16 am
Whether we like it or not, I think the traditional dealer structure is a thing of the past for the simple reason that the traditional buyer structure is also a thing of the past. In the 90s, at the beginning of digital photography and digital MF, most buyers were professional photographers who needed the service of a dealer to set up a studio system for them, including tethering, etc...
At present, I think that most buyers a amateurs who simply want what they perceive is the best. They are not use to subcontract expertise work and may actually enjoy solving their hardware problems themselves. It simply is a different market.

*shrugs* the ďtraditional dealer structureĒ (what we would call value added partner)  is stronger than ever at DT. Ten years ago it was a four person company with a small office, now we are 25 full-time employees with big test studios in NYC and LA and dozens of events hosted through the country each year. About half our clients are professionals, but I donít see the difference youíre referring to regarding their appreciation for things like expert advice, testing before purchasing, training, and support after purchase.

Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia. I would think that is relevant to whether the buyer is comfortable buying based on a brand name or whether they want to kick the proverbial tires.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Rob C on June 27, 2019, 06:53:50 am
I don't have evidence, I have anecdotal discussions with multiple dealers and I pay attention to the folks around me.  I've seen/chatted with many 500 series shooters, and there seems to be a mental block to purchasing a back for more than $2,000 or there about.  People won't do it - there's always an excuse.  Ever read how polling numbers go - no one ever says they'll vote against a school levy, but somehow the levy either fails or barely scrapes by the 60% required.  People say a lot that makes them feel good, but when it comes to cash on the table they make other decisions.  I know that the local rental shop is doing great business renting out their 503cx'es, and they'd be able to rent out a CFV-50c II more than a few times, but the cost of the unit prevented them from risking the investment. 

Order your 35mm gear site unseen and have fun - you can resell it for a minimal loss, as the marketplace is 500x larger.  Same with the iPhone, though no one has lined up for the last number of years - these are consumer electronics.

MF gear, especially when you look at $10-50k purchases really need to be held in hand.  There is no other way.  Ask a dealer what the return policy on a Hasselblad - they'll get any issues fixed, but it's yours.  It's a market that requires a lot of user experience & understanding to be successful.  Having stock is different to having a demo or a rental setup.  I don't expect to see a set of HC lenses just sitting there, but if you purchase today, you'd walk out with the one from rentals and in 1-2 days when yours shows up we would swap.  That is what a dealer does.  If a dealer doesn't move enough Hasselblad, or can't support a rental kit, how are you supposed to handle an emergency equipment failure?  Spares? Demos?  It's why I see the dealer relationship as so important.

Camera stores I've chatted with order gear in 1 of 2 ways: cash up front for inventory, or on terms based on the sale.  The camera store makes more money on the resulting sale when they do cash up front.  There are downsides for dealers when it come to rebates, where they have to wait for the mfg to cut then a check.  When they sell on consignment it's not like there is money on the shelf, but what then end up with as a margin is significantly less. 

Buying a camera, especially your first medium format camera based on a review is the worst possible decision.  It's either a puff piece from a mfg rep'ed photographer, or a reviewer who doesn't shoot MF commercially.  It has to work in your workflow, with your methods & you'll most likely have to change how some things are done.  The only way to do this is with experienced support.


Again, I have attempted to post a reply on my iPad and it has refused to stick! All that got through was the post, as above, to which I attempted the response. The iPad is at 98% charge...

Strangely, this present, brief message has obviously got through.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: landscapephoto on June 27, 2019, 11:22:05 am
*shrugs* the ďtraditional dealer structureĒ (what we would call value added partner)  is stronger than ever at DT. Ten years ago it was a four person company with a small office, now we are 25 full-time employees with big test studios in NYC and LA and dozens of events hosted through the country each year. About half our clients are professionals, but I donít see the difference youíre referring to regarding their appreciation for things like expert advice, testing before purchasing, training, and support after purchase.

Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia. I would think that is relevant to whether the buyer is comfortable buying based on a brand name or whether they want to kick the proverbial tires.

I said that the traditional buyers had been disappearing. Quite simply if that is not the case in your area , your business may continue to thrive. Globally, however, the buyer structure has changed considerably, at least in Europe and in Asia.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Rob C on June 27, 2019, 12:22:20 pm
I said that the traditional buyers had been disappearing. Quite simply if that is not the case in your area , your business may continue to thrive. Globally, however, the buyer structure has changed considerably, at least in Europe and in Asia.

The incredibly vanishing dealership started a long time ago - late 70s/early 90s in my area (Glasgow, Scotland). My Hasselblad dealer stopped stocking them because he was removed from their list: he could no longer compete on price: he told me (I was a long-time client of his for 'blad and Nikon) that he could not buy from Hasselblad at the price that London dealers were able to sell to the public.

There was clearly a terribly uneven playing field going down. If you can sell more cheaply as a big dealership, that should be as an economy of scale, superior management and efficiency, not because the manufacturer sells to you at a lower price. That manufacturer is also shooting himself in the foot: people able to buy camers in that price bracket are not going to be dissuaded by a few pounds here or there, but not being able to touch the camera in the shop was a huge disincentive. Today, with a public conditioned to accepting lower standards of final inspection, sending bodies and lenses back until they get a good one, anything goes. We have all lost by some being so greedy.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Joe Towner on June 27, 2019, 07:19:45 pm
We as a camera buying public have become greedy - the window shopping of retail stores to then go for the cheapest price online is a great example of it.  We want it all, and we want it yesterday, and at below cost.  There are times when it's easier/faster to just order directly something that a local store doesn't have in stock, but the I need it now has come in handy personally multiple times in the last month.

The dealer relationship isn't for everyone, you can most definitely go it alone, but for me & my clients, I need every tool I can get.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: TechTalk on June 27, 2019, 08:22:00 pm
Of course we sell P1 which has really come to dominate the high-end medium format market for pros and enthusiasts that care about performance and image quality more than fashion/styling/nostalgia.

Feeling a little passive-aggressive today Doug? Relax!

There's enough appreciation (and customers) for your company and Phase One in the photo community to keep you happy for a good long while. No need to imply that photographers that choose some product you don't sell don't care about performance and image quality.

Wish I was in your neighborhood. I'd buy you a beer and we could talk about the good old days in the business. I'm feeling nostalgic for a time when cameras had less automation and competition was given more respect.
Title: Re: Hasselblad X Announcement on 6/19
Post by: Doug Peterson on June 27, 2019, 08:42:33 pm
Feeling a little passive-aggressive today Doug? Relax!

There's enough appreciation (and customers) for your company and Phase One in the photo community to keep you happy for a good long while. No need to imply that photographers that choose some product you don't sell don't care about performance and image quality.

Wish I was in your neighborhood. I'd buy you a beer and we could talk about the good old days in the business. I'm feeling nostalgic for a time when cameras had less automation and competition was given more respect.

If thatís how you read my post then I was not sufficiently clear. My apologies.

 There are no shortage of cameras that offer very good performance and image quality today; in fact, you have to search pretty hard to find a camera that doesnít. You can care a great deal about image quality and performance and arrive logically at a startling range of makes and models based on how you balance those two attributes with other perfectly valid priorities such as size, weight, ease of use, hand-fit, availability of specific accessories, existing familiarity with a previous model from the same maker (meaning less time spent relearning how to channel your craft through the new camera), and of course price. I even think that nostalgia, feel, appearance/styling of the body, and community belonging are perfectly good reasons some people might buy a camera

My point is that in targeting the high-end of performance and image quality, Phase One attracts buyers who will far more often treat the buying process a certain technically-oriented way, and in turn allows a value added dealer to offer more value to add. This makes for a plausible theory as to why P1 dealers represent a buck to the overall trend away from value added dealers and toward box stores, at least in the US market Iím familiar with.