Centering the image on a sheet equal margins ???

[FrankG]

Mac OS X 10.14 and Photoshop CC and Epson p400

I am having difficulty getting a perfectly centred image on a sheet. Or put another way, to get equal margins for top/bottom and for left/right.
Sometimes, the aspect ratio of an image differs from the ratio of the paper width x height and so the top/bottom should be equal and the left/right equal. If the image and paper ratios are the same then all 4 margins should be equal.

I have tried every which way, prepping the image to correct size, adding canvas to fill the sheet, without success and tried preset sizes in the driver (for example, US letter, borderless-retain size...) and also 'manage custom size'.

The issue, it seems, is that the sheet feed (whether its normal/standard feed or rear/fine-art media feed) isn't precise and the paper seems to shift slightly to the 'left' side by about 0.05 in.

Furthermore it is confusing which borders to change under 'manage custom size' because the when looking at a horizontal/landscape image on the screen preview, the top/bottom, left/right show correctly, but the paper exits the printer (short side first).

Does anyone have a formula to share that will clarify how to get equal margins for different images printed on different paper sizes and paper orientation?

[I.T. Supplies]

We've dealt with this issue as well with the P5000 a few years ago and via Photoshop CC (earlier version).  For some reason, it must be the settings/drivers that won't properly allow the perfect margin, but we found out that with Epson's Print Layout, you can select the option and make sure the settings on the print drivers match the media, it should work better.

You can get the Print Layout here.

Hope this helps.

[FrankG]

Thanks for the Epson Print Layout suggestion. I do in fact have it installed now and have had some success. Except that I still need to factor in the 'paper shift' that occurs as the sheet is pulled in, printed & exits. It id also a bit baffling trying to preview a landscape/horizontal image where top, bottom, left , right appear correctly, but then the printer feeds the paper in portrait/vertical orientation, so is Left actually the Top etc ?

[PeterAit]

Mac OS X 10.14 and Photoshop CC and Epson p400

I am having difficulty getting a perfectly centred image on a sheet.

0.05 of an inch? I am not trying to be snarky, but why on earth do you need such perfectly centered images?

[FrankG]

Peter, Im not actually sure that is the exact amount that the paper shifts. On very small prints the difference is very noticeable. But not on large prints. For example if you do a very small 6x4 inch and you want an 1/8th inch border all round....even if  one side is fractionally off it's noticeable. Not the case if you print a larger image on a larger sheet with say 1.5in  borders

[Wayne Fox]

The issue, it seems, is that the sheet feed (whether its normal/standard feed or rear/fine-art media feed) isn't precise and the paper seems to shift slightly to the 'left' side by about 0.05 in.

not necessarily.  The position of the paper is determined by a sensor. On the larger printers you can have the paper vary as much as 3/16” when you insert it without getting a loading error, and the image will still be in exactly the position. On my p9000, if I print a 13x19, the two side margins are ⅛” different.

I’ve never quite understood how an Epson printer can precisely print a dither to a 2880x1440 resolution, but can’t seem to figure out how to precisely measure to the edge of the printed image from the edge of the paper. Centering prints and uneven margins have been a problem for a long time. There should be some setting that users can change to make this distance more precise. 

I’ve found some workarounds in Lightroom that work for the most part, not bad if you are printing a lot of the same size images so you can use a couple of templates that are easy recall.  Basically it’s creating an image node and then off centering it slightly so it ends up centered on the sheet of paper.

[Jonathan Cross]

If the margin matters so much on a 6x4, why not print on A5 and cut the margin to size?

Best wishes,

Jonathan

[FrankG]

I uninstalled and re-downloaded & installed the printer driver to ensure I have the latest (10.16).
But still no 'Centre Image' checkbox that I see referred to on various sites.
Mystery.
Could it be that 'Scale to fit paper' under Paper Handling is the equivalent?

[Garnick]

For many years using a variety of Epson Wide Format printers I've never encountered centering issues as put forth here.  That is until I started working with the Epson SC-P7000 printer.  I immediately noticed that on sheets and rolls the printer could not centre the print.  In many cases that's not an issue, since the prints would be trimmed to the image.  However, especially on roll papers where the borders are sometimes left in place there is indeed a noticeable difference.  This is where the 0.05" measure comes into effect.  I also experimented almost two years ago and found that by adding .05" to the left margin in the driver I can count on a properly centred print, both on roll and sheet when necessary.  I'm working on a MacPro 5,1 and High Sierra.

Peter - "0.05 of an inch? I am not trying to be snarky, but why on earth do you need such perfectly centered images?".  Usually I don't, but since some of my customers do, I have to make sure they get what they're paying for. 

[nirpat89]

I uninstalled and re-downloaded & installed the printer driver to ensure I have the latest (10.16).
But still no 'Centre Image' checkbox that I see referred to on various sites.
Mystery.
Could it be that 'Scale to fit paper' under Paper Handling is the equivalent?

Scale to fit paper will change the size of the image to fit the paper size (minus the minimum margins which are 3 mm 0r 0.12 in for P400.)  So no, that would not be equivalent.  I use Position and Size option in Photoshop Printer setting window for tweaking the placement of an image.  If the error is repeatable i.e. same offset on any of the side(s), first center the image by checking Center box.  Then uncheck it and change Top and Left numbers by adding or subtracting as the case may be.  You don't have to worry about the orientation and which way the print comes out.  Just look at the print and calculate the offsets and apply them in Position and Size settings. Again, this is good only if the error occurs exactly the same amount every time.  Otherwise you will be chasing a moving target. 

I have a feeling your requirement may be too stringent for what the system can do.  I may be wrong, but even the paper size specs are probably more generous than the 0.05 in that you are looking for.  Also check how you are placing the paper in the feed, making sure every time the same initial position is achieved, pushing the paper against the right edge and laying squarely on the bottom of the feed. 

:Niranjan.

[Daverich]

Epson sheet printers have generally required .56 inch borders on the bottom or right side of the print depending on its orientation versus .25 inches on the other three sides. To center my image when printing on sheets I uncheck Center Image and move the image .22 towards the .56 side.

[FrankG]

I have had a major breakthrough. Although I'm not home & dry yet.

I focused on why I didn't have the Center checkbox. And after spending quite some time on the phone with Epson ( a very nice lady in Manila, Phillipines) and uninstalling reinstalling the driver a few times, I do now have the Center checkbox. Yay !

The first 'test' print was a 5x7 in horizontal/landscape  image on 8.5x11 (letter).  With the Center box checked it printed almost, but not quite perfectly. An 1/8 or 1/16 in difference.

I then un-checked the box which makes the Top & Left margins available.

To get the Top & Bottom equal I had to reduce the Top from it's default (when centered) position of 1.631 to 1.599 a difference of about .03 (this is not precise as I was rushing).

Now Top & Bottom are the same - 1.75 inches

And Left/Right didn't need adjustment - both 2 inches

Yay!

Now the $64M question is how to apply this to a great variety of image sizes and ratios to and a variety of paper sizes so that it's a simple bit of arithmetic and avoids countless sheets of trial & error print tests

I thought it was simply a case of taking that compensation (.03) and applying it but my next test print didn't work so well. I think its because the margin wasn't big enough and the image encroached on the non-printable are (zebra stripes). I guess that if you select the paper size + borderless>retain size then it gets rid of the non-printable area

Another test, this time an 8x10 image on 8.5x11 turned out perfectly with 1/4 top bottom and 1/2 left/right.
I had to uncheck centre and add .03 to the left

[FrankG]

@Daverich "Epson sheet printers have generally required .56 inch borders on the bottom or right side of the print depending on its orientation versus .25 inches on the other three sides. To center my image when printing on sheets I uncheck Center Image and move the image .22 towards the .56 side"
Are those numbers consistent across all different paper sizes and epson printers ?
Are these minimum borders so you don't print into the non-printable area (zebra stripes)?
What if you changed paper size choice to the borderless>retain size option? Wouldn't you be able to move your border closer to the edge if you should wish to. For example, an 1/8 in border (.125) on a very small 6x4 or similar.

[Garnick]

" Another test, this time an 8x10 image on 8.5x11 turned out perfectly with 1/4 top bottom and 1/2 left/right. I had to uncheck centre and add .03 to the left "

Hi Frank,

I assume the 8x10 you referred to above was a horizontal image.  However, my question refers to both a horizontal or vertical 8x10.  This is rather puzzling, since on any of the Wide Format Epson printers I've worked with (SP-7600, SP-9900 & SC-P7000) it's impossible to print an 8x10 image on 8.5 x 11" paper with a 1/2" border on each end of the 10" dimension without clipping some of the image. As a matter of fact I just printed a test to verify what I already knew.  I printed an 8x10 vertical image with 1/2" margin/border at the top, which of course moved the bottom of the image into the "zebra" zone.  I measured both the print with the usual margin settings as well as the one with the 1/2" top margin.  The print with the 1/2" top margin/border clipped the bottom of the image by 3/16".  Yes, the top and bottom margins/borders were very close to 1/2", but at price of losing 3/16" at the bottom of the image.  If you have found some magical way of overcoming this issue, please let me know.  Perhaps the P400 printer can somehow accomplish this, but certainly not the printers I've worked with.

EDIT:  I just printed another test, trying to get the top margin/border to exactly 1/2", which I have now accomplished.  However, the bottom margin/border is now 9/16", which means that the image has been clipped by 1/16".  I compared the print with the usual "Center On" setting and the one with the 1/2" top margin/border and the latter has indeed been clipped by exactly 1/16".             

[FrankG]

Gary, I'm still flaying around . But when I have some clarity I'll certainly share this.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Gary, I'm still flaying around . But when I have some clarity I'll certainly share this.

Centering on the output medium (instead of the output printable area) should be easy with Qimage.
I use Qimage Ultimate, which is Windows only, but the sibling product Qimage One (for  Mac or Windows) is probably very similar in capabilities, and it also improves the output quality.

Cheers,
Bart

[nirpat89]

I focused on why I didn't have the Center checkbox. And after spending quite some time on the phone with Epson ( a very nice lady in Manila, Phillipines) and uninstalling reinstalling the driver a few times, I do now have the Center checkbox. Yay !

I don't get it.  Which Center checkbox was missing?  As far as I know there is only one - in Photoshop.  In Epson driver for P400 that I have, the only thing you can specify in the User Defined paper size is the height and width.

:Niranjan.

[nirpat89]

" Another test, this time an 8x10 image on 8.5x11 turned out perfectly with 1/4 top bottom and 1/2 left/right. I had to uncheck centre and add .03 to the left "

Hi Frank,

I assume the 8x10 you referred to above was a horizontal image.  However, my question refers to both a horizontal or vertical 8x10.  This is rather puzzling, since on any of the Wide Format Epson printers I've worked with (SP-7600, SP-9900 & SC-P7000) it's impossible to print an 8x10 image on 8.5 x 11" paper with a 1/2" border on each end of the 10" dimension without clipping some of the image. As a matter of fact I just printed a test to verify what I already knew.  I printed an 8x10 vertical image with 1/2" margin/border at the top, which of course moved the bottom of the image into the "zebra" zone.  I measured both the print with the usual margin settings as well as the one with the 1/2" top margin.  The print with the 1/2" top margin/border clipped the bottom of the image by 3/16".  Yes, the top and bottom margins/borders were very close to 1/2", but at price of losing 3/16" at the bottom of the image.  If you have found some magical way of overcoming this issue, please let me know.  Perhaps the P400 printer can somehow accomplish this, but certainly not the printers I've worked with.

EDIT:  I just printed another test, trying to get the top margin/border to exactly 1/2", which I have now accomplished.  However, the bottom margin/border is now 9/16", which means that the image has been clipped by 1/16".  I compared the print with the usual "Center On" setting and the one with the 1/2" top margin/border and the latter has indeed been clipped by exactly 1/16".           

I don't know if this is an issue or not, but, as far as I understand, any number that is specified as the top or left margin will be measured from the minimum margin requirement for the particular printer.  For example for P400 that minimum margin is 0.12" all around.  If you specify the top margin to be 0.5" in Photoshop, it will actually measure 0.62 on the final print.  When you do Center on, if the minimum margin requirement is the same all around (some don't) then the print will be centered on the page as well. 

:Niranjan.


Edit/Add:

Looks like for large format printers, printable area is not symmetrical:

https://files.support.epson.com/docid/cpd5/cpd50227/source/pro_graphics/source/specifications/reference/scp6000_9000/spex_printable_area_scp6000_9000.html

It is 0.55" on the top as it is marked on the schematic (which is actually bottom based on the way the image comes out topside first.)  So for a 10" image on the 11" paper, you will not be able to center it without clipping off that extra 0.05" from the image.  Makes sense? 

Edit/Add(2):

There is a way out of this conundrum.  Specify Borderless printing by checking the box in Epson driver, even though you are not printing borderless with image smaller than the page.  It will remove the minimum margin requirement and now Photoshop will center trully with the whole of the page and not just the printable area. 

[Daverich]

@Daverich "Epson sheet printers have generally required .56 inch borders on the bottom or right side of the print depending on its orientation versus .25 inches on the other three sides. To center my image when printing on sheets I uncheck Center Image and move the image .22 towards the .56 side"
Are those numbers consistent across all different paper sizes and epson printers ?
Are these minimum borders so you don't print into the non-printable area (zebra stripes)?
What if you changed paper size choice to the borderless>retain size option? Wouldn't you be able to move your border closer to the edge if you should wish to. For example, an 1/8 in border (.125) on a very small 6x4 or similar.

The numbers I gave you are the same for all sheet paper sizes and any of the dozen or so Epson models I’ve used over the years. I didn’t quite follow what you were trying to get at in your example but will point out that I’m not aware of any sheet paper setting that will allow you to have a border less than .56 on the right side of horizontal prints or the bottom of vertical prints.

[FrankG]

With some help on a different thread, this seems to work -

Ps>Print>Check the Center box

Set up custom paper size/s with 0 in all of the 4 margins.
You can enter a very small margin (.03 or .05) on 1 or 2 sides if necessary if there seems to be a slight paper shift, or just to compensate for an individual printer's idiosyncrasy. Just to nudge it.
Save as a preset.
I made separate presets for all my common paper sizes and a Vertical & Horizontal orientation version for each.

Ive tested it with some small size prints (6x4, 5x7, 8.5x11) and they all appear to be printing properly centred (within a very small tolerance).