The American Constitution

[James Clark]

The point here is that China had their chance to stop hacking foreign companies with minimal punishment.  They ultimately choose to ignore it.  Since these minimal punishments did not get them to act properly, higher levels of actions are now called for. 

Actually the point here was that someone asserted that Obama got played, and that Trump was fixing the problem.  That's unequivocally not true on the former, and the latter is still indeterminate, with etc exception that the "fix" in progress is going hard to all involved.  It's kinda like chemo - you just hope you kill the disease before you poison the body, and the long term effects are just something you know you'll have to address later.   That's not ideal.

[James Clark]

It is costing Americans precisely zero. What is paid in tariffs ends up in the budget, a zero-sum result.

I'm pleased to know that you now believe that taxes cost Americans precisely zero, since they all go back to the collective US Government. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Are you folks actually trying to put forward the argument that when someone says "Go back to where you came from" to people with dark skin, that it isn't racist?  Is this some kind of joke?..l

Yes, but the joke is on you. It is not said to “people” but to a limited, specific group of individuals for specific reasons, i.e., for what they specifically said. Otherwise, what you posit means that no one can criticize anyone of a specific minority without being accused of racism (or sexism, or... pick your latest lefties’ flavor of the day)

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

That is not an excuse to suddenly start employing your nefarious actions again, at a much higher speed, which you agreed to stop.  This also clearly shows that you can not take China at their word and greater actions are needed in response this time around. 

The point here is that China had their chance to stop hacking foreign companies with minimal punishment.  They ultimately choose to ignore it.  Since these minimal punishments did not get them to act properly, higher levels of actions are now called for. 

You dont keep on giving repeat offenders slaps on the wrist; eventually you have to fine them or send them to jail if need be.

While I agree on taking sensible actions against intellectual property theft, I do not agree that a trade war is the best way of doing it. In fact, what motivated Trump to start raising import duties was that there was a trade deficit, which is something completely different than protecting local production against unfair competition.

The USA simply (over-)consumes goods made in China, that's what causes the trade deficit. Americans do not want to work at the wages and hours that the Chinese are willing to do, and I do not blame them. But that does mean that those Chinese produced goods need to be imported. If the USA doesn't make goods that the Chinese want to buy in return, then a trade deficit between those nations is just a fact of life.

The underlying problem, the gorilla-in-the-room is that the US overconsumes, and it overspends its available budget. Blaming those outside the room is merely a distraction.

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I do get what you're saying here.  I grew up (DC area) in a very integrated area, and my best friends were a mix of average white WASPy kids (me), three Vietnamese guys, a Filipino, a reform Jew and a another guy who was reform-ish conservative, and who over time went full Orthodox (I just went to his wedding in Brooklyn a few years ago - it was fascinating.  We threw him around on a chair...)

All of us teased each other with stupid stuff like how the Jewish guys always wanted to go to a cheap place for dinner, the Asian guys wanted to get Pho, etc. etc.  Stupid stuff, but the kind of things close friends can tease each other about, acknowledging stereotypes with a wink and an inherent acknowledgement that these things exist, but that they don't ACTUALLY define us.  Today, my wife and I will tease each other about who's whiter (It's her - I promise), and our son, who's black, loves to jump in and give us a hard time about it as well (which actually sometimes leads to some great conversations and has provided me with a lot of personal growth) 

But that's not appropriate for me to say to the general public, because they don't know my background or that these things come from a place of familiarity, and maybe that's a problem - maybe everyone shouldn't be so sensitive.  But regardless, were I to use that kind of language with my opponents of color on a national stage, can't you see how this these things - the stereotypes, the assumed default position of my whiteness as the standard to which everything else is measured, and the standard of what constitutes "real" Americas - plays on racial assumptions and tensions, even if I'm not going full on Klan and outright saying that brown people are inferior? 

Yeah I agree. Slurs are easy to use just like cursing is.  It's a way of unloading.  Sure it's easy to playfully use it among friends.  But you're right, it shouldn't be used in public and would be best if not used privately as well.  We should try to be courteous to people who are different than us.  But when the left or Democrats use the race card for political reasons, it's like a reverse trope, and antagonizes people who feel they are unfairly being accused of stuff they aren't engaging in.  Then they respond and it really becomes racial, or ethnic, or religious, etc.   But like the story about the teens in the mall and your own family shows.  America is getting pst these stereotypes and becoming more one.  If the politicians would stop trying to divide us, we'd all be a lot better off.  Maybe we just have to wait another generation as the remnants of racial divide becomes more of a memory. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...It may be ok in this forum's context for Slobodan to say things that will incite "lefties" to apoplexy...

I do!?

Mission accomplished 

[JoeKitchen]

Actually the point here was that someone asserted that Obama got played, and that Trump was fixing the problem.  That's unequivocally not true on the former, and the latter is still indeterminate, with etc exception that the "fix" in progress is going hard to all involved.  It's kinda like chemo - you just hope you kill the disease before you poison the body, and the long term effects are just something you know you'll have to address later.   That's not ideal.

I would say he got played, if you look at the overall picture. 

China stopped the hacking for a year, waited just long enough for it to blow over, and then, when Obama became a lame duck, started it up full force again.  I am not going to say Trump has fixed the problem, yet, but to suggest Obama got anything done is foolish.  What Obama did was not a solution, he just merely held it off for a bit. 

[jeremyrh]

Otherwise, what you posit means that no one can criticize anyone of a specific minority without being accused of racism (or sexism, or... pick your latest lefties’ flavor of the day)

Umm. no, it doesn't. It means you can't abuse people on specific grounds, such as their race (however defined).

[JoeKitchen]

While I agree on taking sensible actions against intellectual property theft, I do not agree that a trade war is the best way of doing it. In fact, what motivated Trump to start raising import duties was that there was a trade deficit, which is something completely different than protecting local production against unfair competition.

The USA simply (over-)consumes goods made in China, that's what causes the trade deficit. Americans do not want to work at the wages and hours that the Chinese are willing to do, and I do not blame them. But that does mean that those Chinese produced goods need to be imported. If the USA doesn't make goods that the Chinese want to buy in return, then a trade deficit between those nations is just a fact of life.

The underlying problem, the gorilla-in-the-room is that the US overconsumes, and it overspends its available budget. Blaming those outside the room is merely a distraction.

Cheers,
Bart

Alright, I will agree that my fellow Americans over consume and consumerism in this country is a major problem.  I also dont understand why people buy stuff that was made in China; it rarely last that long.  I'd rather pay a little more for something that will last 10 times longer. 

For instance my chef knife is a hand forged Japanese knife that cost $425 when I bought it 18 years ago.  It's about 3/16 of inch thinner now, from sharpening it every 3 or 4 months, but I think I'll still get another 18 years out of it at least. 

[James Clark]

Yes, but the joke is on you. It is not said to “people” but to a limited, specific group of individuals for specific reasons, i.e., for what they specifically said. Otherwise, what you posit means that no one can criticize anyone of a specific minority without being accused of racism (or sexism, or... pick your latest lefties’ flavor of the day)

I've already acknowledged that there's an element of this out there, but the other side of this is NOT, "..and therefore every attack on a person of color or a women has NO basis in racism or sexism."

If you say Hillary Clinton is corrupt, it's not necessarily rooted in sexism.  If you saw she's a corrupt old nag, and ugly as sin to boot, THEN there's a good case to be made that by concentrating on appearance - a commodity that men have traditionally judged as valuable in women - you're firmly in sexist territory.

Likewise, if you tell Obama to go back to Hawaii, you're probably not being racist.  If you tell Obama to go back to Africa, well, you're probably being racist.   And if you actually have no idea whether Obama is from Hawaii or Africa, and tell him to go back to the country he came from, assuming it can't be the USA, you might be racist AND stupid, or just stupid.   This isn't hard stuff.

[jeremyrh]

I also dont understand why people buy stuff that was made in China; it rarely last that long. 

Like an iPhone, you mean?

[Alan Goldhammer]

I have to agree with Alan here.  I do not consider it to be a racial slur.  At worse it is more of statement that deals more with nationality, although I will contest, it does not make much sense since they are both Americans.  At best though, it was just an inner city colloquialism he used to illustrate more of a disliking of them that had nothing to do with their race. 

What about using the term 'sh*thole countries?'

I too grow up in an inner city and used this figure of speech often.  We did not use it in anti-nationality way or when questioning patriotism; that is way too abstract for kids to understand.  It was more of when we dealt with kids from other neighborhoods who got on our nerves. 

"Oh, you play suicide ball with a tennis ball, not a baseball?  Then why don't you go back where you came from then if you don't like how we play."  By the way, playing Sui with a baseball is probably not the best idea.   

I suspect that we all used such language when were were young and impulsive.  I suspect that most of us outgrew this and do not use such language in public.  The President is 'supposed' to be an example for all of us (it would be interesting to know whether anyone disagrees with that).  Such language as this and much of what the President says in Tweets is not only unbecoming but can be dangerous as well.

[Alan Klein]

Actually the point here was that someone asserted that Obama got played, and that Trump was fixing the problem.  That's unequivocally not true on the former, and the latter is still indeterminate, with etc exception that the "fix" in progress is going hard to all involved.  It's kinda like chemo - you just hope you kill the disease before you poison the body, and the long term effects are just something you know you'll have to address later.   That's not ideal.

In war, there are casualties.  It's unfortunate.  But how do you stop them from stealing your stuff?  When a crook steals something, it costs a lot of money to pay policemen and jailers to catch them and keep them in jail when they are caught.  We don't say, well, let them just steal, it's cheaper. 

[James Clark]

I would say he got played, if you look at the overall picture. 

China stopped the hacking for a year, waited just long enough for it to blow over, and then, when Obama became a lame duck, started it up full force again.  I am not going to say Trump has fixed the problem, yet, but to suggest Obama got anything done is foolish.  What Obama did was not a solution, he just merely held it off for a bit.

So we acknowledge that Bush got nothing done, Clinton got nothing done, Obama secured a temporary 90% reduction in one aspect of IP theft and when he lost power through the normal cycle of American politics it went back to the previous levels, and it's foolish to suggest he got anything done?  That's nonsensical.

[Alan Klein]

I'm pleased to know that you now believe that taxes cost Americans precisely zero, since they all go back to the collective US Government. 

Slobo, I think Jim's got you there.

On the other hand, in order to keep their products competitive even though tariffs were added, the Chinese are devaluing their currency and lowering the prices they charge for their products.  Both make their products cheaper for us to buy.  It's nice the Chinese work so hard for us to live better. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

No, James, just no. You et al keep generalizing, as if it was said to the whole group of people solely based on their skin color (btw, three of the squad are Caucasian), instead of the specific group for the specific things they advocate.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I would say he got played, if you look at the overall picture. 

China stopped the hacking for a year, waited just long enough for it to blow over, and then, when Obama became a lame duck, started it up full force again.  I am not going to say Trump has fixed the problem, yet, but to suggest Obama got anything done is foolish.  What Obama did was not a solution, he just merely held it off for a bit.

to think that the President can stop malicious hacking is a joke of the highest order.  Hacking goes on all the time by nation states (including the US which has launched malware on other nation states) and individuals.  There was a story about 20 or so cities whose computer systems got infected by ransomware.  Hostpital systems have been shut down, etc. etc.  What do you expect the President to do about all this??

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

What about using the term 'sh*thole countries?'

I suspect that we all used such language when we were young and impulsive.  I suspect that most of us outgrew this and do not use such language in public.  The President is 'supposed' to be an example for all of us (it would be interesting to know whether anyone disagrees with that).  Such language as this and much of what the President says in Tweets is not only unbecoming but can be dangerous as well.

It's worse, the language is deliberate, to stoke divides between his electoral base and the rest. It also is easy for him, because he seems to believe what he says (and has a long history of saying). It's racially motivated opportunism.

The question is, how is the American constitution going to protect the USA against itself?

Cheers,
Bart

[Alan Klein]

While I agree on taking sensible actions against intellectual property theft, I do not agree that a trade war is the best way of doing it. In fact, what motivated Trump to start raising import duties was that there was a trade deficit, which is something completely different than protecting local production against unfair competition.

The USA simply (over-)consumes goods made in China, that's what causes the trade deficit. Americans do not want to work at the wages and hours that the Chinese are willing to do, and I do not blame them. But that does mean that those Chinese produced goods need to be imported. If the USA doesn't make goods that the Chinese want to buy in return, then a trade deficit between those nations is just a fact of life.

The underlying problem, the gorilla-in-the-room is that the US overconsumes, and it overspends its available budget. Blaming those outside the room is merely a distraction.

Cheers,
Bart

How would you stop the CHinese from stealing?

[James Clark]

How would you stop the CHinese from stealing?

How did Obama reducing hacking by 90%?