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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 222145 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1000 on: June 29, 2019, 03:47:54 pm »

We also tried it the other way once already.  It didn't work.  Curiously, we see the same nonsense today with people like Ammon Bundy and his ilk.

The article you linked to said differently.  Apparently the rebellion had a lot of impact on the founders, the constitution, and our federation.  Regarding Bundy, he didn't run a rebellion and I believe he was found not guilty.  He's even broken off all relations with Trump as he disagrees with his immigration position.  America has always had "hot heads".  In fact, if it wasn't for these, we'd probably be like Canada and still part of the British Empire.  Maybe Scotland or Northern Ireland.  We'd be voting on Brexit.  :) 

RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1001 on: June 29, 2019, 04:14:38 pm »

The odd thing of course is that that republican camp of yours seems to have a propensity for draft dodging candidates that slander and ignore actual god honest war heroes. . .

Hi Oscar, I was going back through the early part of this absurdity, before I dropped out, and ran across this, which I evidently missed first time around.

Obviously you must have been happy with those famous war heroes Billy ("I hate the military") Clinton and Barracks Obama.
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1002 on: June 29, 2019, 04:42:12 pm »

Hi Oscar, I was going back through the early part of this absurdity, before I dropped out, and ran across this, which I evidently missed first time around.

Obviously you must have been happy with those famous war heroes Billy ("I hate the military") Clinton and Barracks Obama.

Obama dodged the draft by being 12 years old. Damned cunning!!
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1003 on: June 29, 2019, 05:06:56 pm »

Obama dodged the draft by being 12 years old. Damned cunning!!

Sonofabitch! I had to spend four years in engineering just to keep my ass out of it! Fortunately, they ended the compusory 2-years-wasted nonsense and I could migrate sideways into happy snaps, four years older than I needed to be, four years wasted catching up to do!

Unless there's an existential-level war going down, then I think wars should be left to professionals who seek out the excitement - real or imagined - just like their civilian war photographer buddies!

Bu hey, it sure massaged the unemployment figures for a term!

RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1004 on: June 29, 2019, 07:46:05 pm »

There was excitement, Rob. Not imagined.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1005 on: June 29, 2019, 10:03:39 pm »

Sonofabitch! I had to spend four years in engineering just to keep my ass out of it! Fortunately, they ended the compusory 2-years-wasted nonsense and I could migrate sideways into happy snaps, four years older than I needed to be, four years wasted catching up to do!

Unless there's an existential-level war going down, then I think wars should be left to professionals who seek out the excitement - real or imagined - just like their civilian war photographer buddies!

Bu hey, it sure massaged the unemployment figures for a term!

We should have a draft again. Less wars.  Parents don't want to see their kids get killed.  They'll be more opposition. Now no one cares.  It's someone else's kid.  Plus the cost is killing all of us. 

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1006 on: June 29, 2019, 11:36:03 pm »

We should have a draft again. Less wars.  Parents don't want to see their kids get killed.  They'll be more opposition. Now no one cares.  It's someone else's kid.  Plus the cost is killing all of us.
on this we're can agree.   However,  just don't let people off with bogus bone spurs.
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DP

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1007 on: June 30, 2019, 12:05:59 am »

There was excitement, Rob. Not imagined.

one Lt Calley comes to mind...
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DP

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1008 on: June 30, 2019, 12:07:51 am »

We should have a draft again. Less wars. 

so true ... no exceptions this time though and make it universal sex-wise.
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RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1009 on: June 30, 2019, 07:33:33 am »

one Lt Calley comes to mind...

Calley comes only to sick minds.
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1010 on: June 30, 2019, 07:47:22 am »

Why would you want to reintroduce the draft? Don't you understand that for many people it represents a massive break in their career development at the most productive and important time of their life?

It might be okay to enlist the guys with no hope or educational achievements, with nowhere realistic to go but the pool hall or nearest bar, but for the rest, why would you screw their lives?

I can tell you, as I have, that the bloody concept cost me four years of my young life and at a time when I should have been learning the ropes of a life in photography.

Maybe some here just couldn't avoid it, so they can't see why others should; it has got sod all to do with weeping mothers and coffins with flags: it has everything to do with totalitarian mindsets and one-size-fits-all thinking.

If you want to be a soldier, sailor, flyer or seal, good on you. Let it be your choice unless, as I said already, it's a case of existential crisis. Painting coal white with a toothbrush, and then repainting it black again is for the already insane.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1011 on: June 30, 2019, 08:05:52 am »

Women in the forces? Not at the sharp edges, but certainly back in the hospitals and medical tents. 

There is a huge psychological difference in being treated by a male or female nurse. A female not only makes you draw on the remains of your masculinity in order to gird your spiritual loins about yourself and fight to recover, but the subliminal sex thing, always there, even with your accountant or architect, makes you a better more brave version of yourself. Which unless taken to extremes, keeps the juices active in your head, where you often most need them.

A woman fighting in the same trench? Could lead to self-sacrifice, in absurd macho endeavour, which gets two killed. You can't trust sex. It is stronger than morality, promises or reason. Were that not so, how would you explain the barrage balloons that walk the street pushing prams? You might sit at a pavement bar, Campari soda in hand, wondering how what you see ever happened, but you can't distance yourself from the fact that it did. Truth is stranger than fiction. And don't bring up engaging personality: that wasn't what dunnit. Yeah, stuff best not mentioned, but there it is, mentioned not brushed under the carpet.

Fighting women make me think of rainbow warriors and street parades.

RSL

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1012 on: June 30, 2019, 08:22:37 am »

Right on, Rob. The Israelis learned early on that when women are involved in a firefight the men tend to shield the women instead of carrying out the mission. The result can be destruction of the unit and loss of the fight.

Way back in 2003 I did some research on the subject after the obvious BS in the news media about Kara Hultgreen, the navy's first female carrier pilot who screwed up and went into the drink. Finally, some patriotic sneak put the accident report on the web.

For a rundown on the subject check http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/womeninarmedforces.html
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LesPalenik

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1013 on: June 30, 2019, 08:47:42 am »

Interesting article, Russ. Thanks for posting it.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1014 on: June 30, 2019, 09:49:33 am »

Why would you want to reintroduce the draft? Don't you understand that for many people it represents a massive break in their career development at the most productive and important time of their life?

It might be okay to enlist the guys with no hope or educational achievements, with nowhere realistic to go but the pool hall or nearest bar, but for the rest, why would you screw their lives?

I can tell you, as I have, that the bloody concept cost me four years of my young life and at a time when I should have been learning the ropes of a life in photography.

Maybe some here just couldn't avoid it, so they can't see why others should; it has got sod all to do with weeping mothers and coffins with flags: it has everything to do with totalitarian mindsets and one-size-fits-all thinking.

If you want to be a soldier, sailor, flyer or seal, good on you. Let it be your choice unless, as I said already, it's a case of existential crisis. Painting coal white with a toothbrush, and then repainting it black again is for the already insane.



I volunteered for 4 years for the USAF.  ALthough I never served in combat, I did learn electronics and other things which become my career field in life.  I'm proud of the fact I served.  I think doing service in one form or another for your country instills civic responsibility, patriotism, pride and responsibility for your countrymen.  The draft in America in peacetime had been for two years, a rather short time.  There were exceptions to getting drafted so you could finish college, for example.  Most people don;t get drafted because the armed forces doesn;t need that many people.  But by having enough drafted, there would be more consideration of not going to war before we actually do that.  Politicians will be more considerate of the parents of these kids then they might be with an  all volunteer force when people can shrug and say, "...well they volunteered.  It's on them, not us, if they get killed."  That's a cop-out. 

D Fuller

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1015 on: June 30, 2019, 11:45:23 am »

I volunteered for 4 years for the USAF.  ALthough I never served in combat, I did learn electronics and other things which become my career field in life.  I'm proud of the fact I served.  I think doing service in one form or another for your country instills civic responsibility, patriotism, pride and responsibility for your countrymen.  The draft in America in peacetime had been for two years, a rather short time.  There were exceptions to getting drafted so you could finish college, for example.  Most people don;t get drafted because the armed forces doesn;t need that many people.  But by having enough drafted, there would be more consideration of not going to war before we actually do that.  Politicians will be more considerate of the parents of these kids then they might be with an  all volunteer force when people can shrug and say, "...well they volunteered.  It's on them, not us, if they get killed."  That's a cop-out.

Alan, this is wishful thinking. Viet Nam and Korea would stand as evidence that things happen differently than you suggest.
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OmerV

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1016 on: June 30, 2019, 12:08:31 pm »

Alan, this is wishful thinking. Viet Nam and Korea would stand as evidence that things happen differently than you suggest.

In Vietnam, volunteers outnumbered draftees in the range of 60% to 30%, respectively.

degrub

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1017 on: June 30, 2019, 01:12:15 pm »

really ?
What is the source of that information, please ?
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1019 on: June 30, 2019, 01:25:47 pm »

Alan, this is wishful thinking. Viet Nam and Korea would stand as evidence that things happen differently than you suggest.

I didn't say it would prevent war.  After 9-11, the Armed Forces turned away volunteers there were so many.  It's just that more consideration would occur before we got involved in conflict.  I think that's a positive.    Also, as I lived through VietNam, I recall the huge opposition to the war because of the draft.  There was draft dodging as people fled to Canada.  There was a sudden contagion of bone spurs even infecting our current president. :)   Never mind their parents. Kids didn't want to get drafted and die in the swamps of southeast asia.  The draft helped contribute to us losing the war. The draft will make politicians think twice before they pull the trigger. 
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