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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 80967 times)

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #620 on: June 21, 2019, 06:22:38 pm »

Rob, I can only wish that the condescending tone toward Alan is taken down a notch. Alan has been patiently, and very politely, giving you in a nutshell one side of the story. If you want to believe only the other side, that is fine, but that does not invalidate the aspect of the situation that Alan provides.
Alan's opinion is Alan's opinion.. It is not an "aspect of the situation."
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rabanito

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #621 on: June 21, 2019, 06:37:27 pm »

Rob, I can only wish that the condescending tone toward Alan is taken down a notch. Alan has been patiently, and very politely, giving you in a nutshell one side of the story. If you want to believe only the other side, that is fine, but that does not invalidate the aspect of the situation that Alan provides.

I'm confused. It looked like Rob was answering to kers, not to Alan.  :o
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OmerV

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #622 on: June 21, 2019, 06:44:20 pm »

Well. If Iran does another shootdown or something,  then when Trump retaliates,  everyone will say he was very patient and everyone will blame Iran.

Not everyone, Alan. Donald owns this mess. By reneging on the nuclear deal, the US has made it clear the only option for Iran is a regime change. My guess it will take down as many players it can before it succumbs to that.

So Donald had his moment of fatuous braggadocio with his “fire and fury” nonsense and now with an adversary that is willing to really fight, the idea of coffins draped with the American flag has exposed him as someone who’s been anywhere but in the Oval Office.

PS  My cynical side would say that the only thing Donald truly cares about is his image and his money. The way he insulted John McCain as a veteran suggests that death in service to your country is of no consequence to him.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #623 on: June 21, 2019, 06:50:33 pm »

I'm confused. It looked like Rob was answering to kers, not to Alan.  :o

It doesn’t surprise me at all that you are confused. Try reading again. It helps. Sometimes.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #624 on: June 21, 2019, 08:08:18 pm »

Well. If Iran does another shootdown or something, [...]

Who says it was Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia? Or, what evidence do you have that it even happened?

Cheers,
Bart
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #625 on: June 21, 2019, 09:09:39 pm »

Who says it was Iran and not, say, Saudi Arabia? Or, what evidence do you have that it even happened?

Cheers,
Bart
Iran admitted it shot down the American drone.  The only disagreement is that Iran claims it was in Iranian space and the US claims it was over international waters.  Frankly, I felt Trump should have done something to respond and will be forced to if another incident occurs.  Otherwise he will lose all credibility as Obama did with his "red line" regarding Syria.   No one will take him seriously. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #626 on: June 21, 2019, 09:12:43 pm »

Rob, I can only wish that the condescending tone toward Alan is taken down a notch. Alan has been patiently, and very politely, giving you in a nutshell one side of the story. If you want to believe only the other side, that is fine, but that does not invalidate the aspect of the situation that Alan provides.

Thanks for the support.  You've taken a lot of heat too. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #627 on: June 21, 2019, 09:25:01 pm »

Not everyone, Alan. Donald owns this mess. By reneging on the nuclear deal, the US has made it clear the only option for Iran is a regime change. My guess it will take down as many players it can before it succumbs to that.

So Donald had his moment of fatuous braggadocio with his “fire and fury” nonsense and now with an adversary that is willing to really fight, the idea of coffins draped with the American flag has exposed him as someone who’s been anywhere but in the Oval Office.

PS  My cynical side would say that the only thing Donald truly cares about is his image and his money. The way he insulted John McCain as a veteran suggests that death in service to your country is of no consequence to him.

Trump ran and was elected president on his promise to pull out of both the Iran agreement and climate change Paris agreement, both signed unilaterally and unconstitutionally by Obama.  Call it what you want.  America is not a party to a treaty until it is ratified by the US Senate, which did not occur.  America does not want treaties without Senate advise and consent.  That's what happened in Iran and Paris.  Obama thought he was being cute but he knew he wouldn't get Senate approval for either of them. 

Now, if Iran would sign a new deal forever giving up their desire to obtain nukes, Trump and the US Senate would sign a treaty with Iran tomorrow and remove all sanctions and their regime would be untouched. 

Regarding Paris, if China and India were included and there were some method of enforcement, Trump would consider renegotiating Paris.  Currently Paris requires nothing of those two countries until 2030 who produce 37% of the world's CO2.  Paris punishes the rest of us while China especially can continue to "pollute" and actually increase their CO2 production. 
« Last Edit: June 21, 2019, 09:29:44 pm by Alan Klein »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #628 on: June 21, 2019, 11:13:35 pm »

Quote
One of President Trump's most vocal critics offered rare praise for him on Friday after he backed away from a military strike on Iran.

"I do applaud Trump’s decision not to carry out what would have been a disproportionate strike that would have led to 150 or so fatalities," former CIA Director John Brennan told MSNBC on Friday

BobShaw

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #629 on: June 22, 2019, 03:41:39 am »

Iran admitted it shot down the American drone.  The only disagreement is that Iran claims it was in Iranian space and the US claims it was over international waters.  Frankly, I felt Trump should have done something to respond and will be forced to if another incident occurs.
Possibly the fact that he didn't answers the disagreement?
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rabanito

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #630 on: June 22, 2019, 04:29:50 am »

It doesn’t surprise me at all that you are confused. Try reading again. It helps. Sometimes.

Slobodan, Slobodan!!!
You did it again...
Why are you so obsessed with that rabanito-bashing?

Look at the attachment... Isn't Rob quoting kers?
Is poor rabanito so wrong being confused?
Tsk-Tsk...

rabanito's English is poor, that's easy for anybody to notice. And so it's easy to make fun of him.
BUT: Why instead of using that (using your own vocabulary) "condescending tone" you just "take it down a notch" and help him to understand??   ;D ;D

Look, just as an example: I play chess. But I'll never beat a GM unless he's drunk. That doesn't make me furious or frustrated against them. That's just the way it is.
Buy yourself a mirror and look into it, Slobodan. You'll do yourself a favor.
Biting continuously on granite just ruins the teeth.
Let's stay friends  ;)
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kers

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #631 on: June 22, 2019, 04:33:44 am »

The last thing the world needs is another war in the Middle East.
a completely unneccesary one.

It took 10 years of talking with many leaders around the world to accomplish the Iran treaty.
Iran gets a better economy & the world an Iran without nuclear arms.
The treaty was controlled and Iran kept its promises as did the other parties.

Trump showed all parties involved that the US is not faithful partner to make a treaty with. ( and showed that repeatedly)
Iran showed restrain and kept its promises up until now, a year after Trump withdrew and put new sanctions on Iran.
Now the US, Saudi Arabia, armed to the teeth by the US, and Israel seem to be ready for war with Iran.
They only have to find a good reason to start it so they try to provoke Iran into some mistake.

- remember the last Irak war;
The US said there were weapons of mass destruction in Irak- the UN-commitee that controlled Irak said there were not.
Still the war was pushed through. about a million Iraki soldiers died - even worse - no party was/is interested to count them.
The US not for obvious reasons and the Irak government for obvious reasons.
Also the country was destroyed by bombs destroying 4000 years of man made history and civilisation.
Politically it was and is still a mess in wich IS found ground to develop.

Iran has never started a war. It has defended itself in the Irak- Iran war - in a time the 'ally' Saddam Houssein was armed by the US and Europe in a way Saudi Arabia is armed now.
Those weapons will start a life of their own -as the Iraki arms of Saddam Houssein did, the US and Russian arms still do in Afganistan.
The people in Jemen are the first victims of those arms.
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Pieter Kers
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kers

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #632 on: June 22, 2019, 04:39:18 am »

...
Now, if Iran would sign a new deal forever giving up their desire to obtain nukes, Trump and the US Senate would sign a treaty with Iran tomorrow and remove all sanctions and their regime would be untouched. 
...
Iran did just that in the treaty rejected by Trump - the US.

about forever...
Trump showed that a deal with the US only lasts one year. You cannot trust the US anymore.
Iran still keeps its part of the treaty up until now, despite the new US sanctions.

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #633 on: June 22, 2019, 06:47:01 am »

Iran admitted it shot down the American drone.

a drone  after multiple warnings that it was invading Iranian airspace, at least that is the Iranian side of the lies that both parties are spreading. Do we even know if it was operated by American or Arabic controllers? We know nothing, except for what they want us to believe.

And do you really think there was only one drone in the air? So even selectively shared Radar tracks may not tell the real story.

Let's not be gullible, especially when human lives are at stake.

Quote
No one will take him seriously.

I'll refrain from commenting on that.

BTW., it's the US who unilaterally broke the internationally supported agreement, which Iran upheld, and the US imposed sanctions on anybody who does business with Iran. Do you really thnk that deliberately wrecking a sovern nation's economy (by request of Israel and Saudi Arabia?) is the best way to preserve peace in the middle East?

Cheers,
Bart
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #634 on: June 22, 2019, 07:14:39 am »

Rob, I can only wish that the condescending tone toward Alan is taken down a notch. Alan has been patiently, and very politely, giving you in a nutshell one side of the story. If you want to believe only the other side, that is fine, but that does not invalidate the aspect of the situation that Alan provides.


And how I wish you were still able to read and digest both sides of the American argument as well as you did in your link to our own version of your guy: Boris.

Alan does not listen; he's as open to hearing the other side as is a Rangers man willing to sit down in a Celtic pub.

If it sounds condescending, it's a measure of frustration at the rubber wall against which opinion and/or argument is cast.

And no, I don't expect you to agree with that view.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 07:32:42 am by Rob C »
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OmerV

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #635 on: June 22, 2019, 08:06:58 am »

Trump ran and was elected president on his promise to pull out of both the Iran agreement and climate change Paris agreement, both signed unilaterally and unconstitutionally by Obama.  Call it what you want.  America is not a party to a treaty until it is ratified by the US Senate, which did not occur.  America does not want treaties without Senate advise and consent.  That's what happened in Iran and Paris.  Obama thought he was being cute but he knew he wouldn't get Senate approval for either of them. 

Now, if Iran would sign a new deal forever giving up their desire to obtain nukes, Trump and the US Senate would sign a treaty with Iran tomorrow and remove all sanctions and their regime would be untouched. 

Regarding Paris, if China and India were included and there were some method of enforcement, Trump would consider renegotiating Paris.  Currently Paris requires nothing of those two countries until 2030 who produce 37% of the world's CO2.  Paris punishes the rest of us while China especially can continue to "pollute" and actually increase their CO2 production.

The agreement was a non-binding deal, not a treaty. Of course, had it been a treaty Donald would have needed senate approval to reverse it.  ::)

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #636 on: June 22, 2019, 09:01:15 am »

a drone  after multiple warnings that it was invading Iranian airspace, at least that is the Iranian side of the lies that both parties are spreading. Do we even know if it was operated by American or Arabic controllers? We know nothing, except for what they want us to believe.

And do you really think there was only one drone in the air? So even selectively shared Radar tracks may not tell the real story.

Let's not be gullible, especially when human lives are at stake.

I'll refrain from commenting on that.

BTW., it's the US who unilaterally broke the internationally supported agreement, which Iran upheld, and the US imposed sanctions on anybody who does business with Iran. Do you really thnk that deliberately wrecking a sovern nation's economy (by request of Israel and Saudi Arabia?) is the best way to preserve peace in the middle East?

Cheers,
Bart

Not only preserve peace in the Middle East but retain the faith of the fellow western allies! Suddenly, the US, in body of Trump, is putting the screws onto people who have been its faithful (some might say blind) supporters for as long as anyone can remember. That's the new face of "special relationships", guys!

Remember you saw it first writ large in orange.

As for the cold logic of the US distancing Europe: does Mr T imagine that possible strikes may only come via Alaska? (Think Omaha Beach etc, when Hitler imagined the closest crossing, Calais, the logical point of attack.) Europe is full of early-warning sites; out tallest mountain in Mallorca, at 1445 metres, featured twin domes, US-built and run; today, I can only see one, which may or may not be an upgrade: they don't consult me, but maybe they consult another LuLa scribe. :-) I'm certain Gibraltar is not sitting idle as nothing but a low-grade accontancy haven, either, and the US airforce bases on the mainland just there for the summer weather, the female tourists and sangria, nor just the good of Europe alone.

Turning good, foreign relations sour because of pique or local vote-seeking intentions says more about the turncoat than the others.

If you want a parallel, then look no further than our mirror in Boris and what the Tories, my old party of choice, has become: their openly stated, over and over again, objective in trying to elect Boris as next PM has nothing to do with what the majority in Parliament has shown repeatedly to be their belief in the wisest choice for the country, but an attempt to win the next general election. In other words, fuck the country's long-term interests, let's cater to the tiny majority of voter that wants to commit collective suicide; it might switch all its vote to New Tory and keep us in great sinecures.

It has certainly lost my potential vote, should I ever again be in a position to exercise it, which they clearly don't want me to be able to do, or they would not have disenfranchised me and thousands more from the original Brexit decision vote. Who needs the opinion of somebody with actual experience of what it all means?
 
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 09:06:42 am by Rob C »
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Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #637 on: June 22, 2019, 10:36:15 am »

Iran did just that in the treaty rejected by Trump - the US.

about forever...
Trump showed that a deal with the US only lasts one year. You cannot trust the US anymore.
Iran still keeps its part of the treaty up until now, despite the new US sanctions.



The deal allows Iran to start building nukes again in a few years.  Useless.  That's why the US Senate would not ratify Obama's deal and make it a treaty that America and future presidents would have to support.  Obama figured Clinton would win the presidency and continue the "deal". The Iranians knew better and worried about the "deal".  I'm sure they pressed Obama to get Senate approval but he couldn;t.  So they kept their fingers crossed and lost when Trump was elected.  Meanwhile, they're raising the consistency of nuclear materials against the "deal" and promises they made to Europeans and have attacked Japanese and other non-American ships in the Gulf of Hormuz. What have the Japanese done to them? 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #638 on: June 22, 2019, 10:41:20 am »


And how I wish you were still able to read and digest both sides of the American argument as well as you did in your link to our own version of your guy: Boris.

Alan does not listen; he's as open to hearing the other side as is a Rangers man willing to sit down in a Celtic pub.

If it sounds condescending, it's a measure of frustration at the rubber wall against which opinion and/or argument is cast.

And no, I don't expect you to agree with that view.




No one here every changed their mind on any subject.  Maybe we can at least agree on that point. :)

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #639 on: June 22, 2019, 11:09:21 am »

a drone  after multiple warnings that it was invading Iranian airspace, at least that is the Iranian side of the lies that both parties are spreading. Do we even know if it was operated by American or Arabic controllers? We know nothing, except for what they want us to believe.

And do you really think there was only one drone in the air? So even selectively shared Radar tracks may not tell the real story.

Let's not be gullible, especially when human lives are at stake.

I'll refrain from commenting on that.

BTW., it's the US who unilaterally broke the internationally supported agreement, which Iran upheld, and the US imposed sanctions on anybody who does business with Iran. Do you really thnk that deliberately wrecking a sovern nation's economy (by request of Israel and Saudi Arabia?) is the best way to preserve peace in the middle East?

Cheers,
Bart


Iran has been a bad actor in the Middle East.  They and their proxies have stirred up war and conflict in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, and half a dozen other countries with their terrorist activities.  The last thing we need is for them to be allowed to develop nukes in a few years which they would be allowed to do under the current "deal".  What would "peace" look like when that happens?  Better we nip it in the bud before they actually get the bomb. 
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