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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 37865 times)

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1120 on: July 07, 2019, 07:05:07 am »

Can you provide us with an example of such a claim ?


Come on; you think I give them enough credence as to keep notes?

Rob

JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1121 on: July 07, 2019, 07:38:52 am »


As father of a teacher, I can confirm her recounted experiences are very close to yours, with the difference that on Parents/Teachers nights, many parents of bad pupils do show up and pretty much threaten teachers over their kids. Yes, there are bad/indifferent/lousy parents as good, but don't forget that not all kids who do badly have anyone but themselves to blame: they are, basically, little shits with but a single ambition, which is to destroy the class atmosphere. Parents, too, can be forced to give up in the face of such children. All of which ignores the important fact that not all children are equally capable, despite what some of the political theorists claim

Although I have certainly been threatened by a couple of parents for their child's inability to pass my class for not doing any homework or studying, I find it hard to believe that threats are more likely then not.  Most of the time, the parents of my worse performing students were no where to found and never returned any of my calls or emails, well not until two weeks prior to the end of the year. 

Unfortunately, political correctness has infected the schools so much so we were told to never tell a student or parent that they could not pass.  So at two or three weeks left in the year, I was telling parents that, "yes, your child could possibly pass even though his/her average is 20 right now."  I pretty much knew it was impossible by that point even if they suddenly turned around, but I would have been reprimanded if I told the truth.   

Insofar as calling them little shits, I also have to protest against this, for most of them.  In my years as a teacher, I only came across 2 or 3 truly horrible kids who I knew would grow up to be horrible adults.  Most of the problems were just kids being kids, caused by a variety of issues those type of kids develop with parents who really don't pay attention to them.  So many of these problems could be mitigated, but are due to distant parents. 

So whenever I hear a politician, or anyone else, talking about how giving more money to a school and this will fix the problems while not even talking about parental involvement, I know don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to education.  Fact, money is insignificant without parental involvement.  Withy very few exceptions, it does not matter how much you spend, if the parents dont care then the child wont care either. 

Now, insofar as someone denying we all have varying innate abilities due to our born biological traits (on an individual level I mean; I am not referencing the gender discussion), they are just being a jack ass.  Most of the students that did bad of mine had absent parents, however a couple had very involved parents and the student still did bad.  They just could not grasp the subject material no matter how hard they tried.  Although it did upset me for them to fail my class, since math builds upon itself, I could not just pass them over sympathy. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 09:02:32 am by JoeKitchen »
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1122 on: July 07, 2019, 07:48:48 am »

Now, insofar as someone denying we all have varying innate abilities due to our born biological traits (on an individual level I mean; I am not referencing the gender discussion), they are just being a jack ass. 

Has anyone actually done that?
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1123 on: July 07, 2019, 07:57:37 am »

Joe, if you reread my post, the little shits to whom I refer are not all the poor performers, but that group which you have also accepted exists, the hard-core irredeemables.

On the matter of equality: with my very own pair, one was very academic from the start, reading everything she could find, and the other one simply turned the metaphorical deaf ear to everything. This was not helped, at one early stage, by a primary teacher comparing him with his sister. Not ideal, confidence-building actions, but apart from that, we could see the totally different attitude at home. It didn't seem to do him much harm as an adult, though.

JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1124 on: July 07, 2019, 08:55:14 am »

Has anyone actually done that?

Some do and think that anyone can be trained to be as good as another.  I never said you, and glad to hear you dont! 

My apologies if you got offended by that. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 09:01:03 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1125 on: July 07, 2019, 08:58:58 am »

Joe, if you reread my post, the little shits to whom I refer are not all the poor performers, but that group which you have also accepted exists, the hard-core irredeemables.

On the matter of equality: with my very own pair, one was very academic from the start, reading everything she could find, and the other one simply turned the metaphorical deaf ear to everything. This was not helped, at one early stage, by a primary teacher comparing him with his sister. Not ideal, confidence-building actions, but apart from that, we could see the totally different attitude at home. It didn't seem to do him much harm as an adult, though.

Ahhh, yes, those ones.  The parents of the kid getting a 98 and wanting to know why it is not a 100, or they ask what can my child do to improve their grade? 

How about you let him/her go outside every now and then, get a tan and some vitamin D.  As great as it is to teach the smart ones, those parents can be really annoying and over do it.  Not to mention, the lower end students often are more socially knowledgable and would understand my sarcasm.   
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1126 on: July 07, 2019, 09:30:32 am »

Some do and think that anyone can be trained to be as good as another.  I never said you, and glad to hear you dont! 

My apologies if you got offended by that.

No offence taken at all - my question was just that - I haven't heard it claimed that people are born with equal abilities.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1127 on: July 07, 2019, 11:42:39 am »

... while not even talking about parental involvement..

Father's Day: the most confusing day in the 'hood  ;)

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1128 on: July 07, 2019, 12:13:37 pm »

Ahhh, yes, those ones.  The parents of the kid getting a 98 and wanting to know why it is not a 100, or they ask what can my child do to improve their grade? 

How about you let him/her go outside every now and then, get a tan and some vitamin D.  As great as it is to teach the smart ones, those parents can be really annoying and over do it.  Not to mention, the lower end students often are more socially knowledgable and would understand my sarcasm.   

Another situation that affects quality education is politics.  When I was a kid going to school in NYC, classes were separated by ability.  So for example, let's say there were 6 classes for first graders.  The smartest kids would be assigned to Class 101, the next smartest to 102 all the way down to 106 where the slowest would be placed.  I guess the point was that with kids being equal within each class, the teacher could apply the teaching to the class's level of learning.  Politics in the community put an end to that.  So now, slow kids are mixed with smart kids in the same class. The teacher has to spend extra time with the slower kids while the smart kids are sitting around being bored and not covering more learning skills as they ought too.  The teacher cannot challenge the class with more difficult stuff and lose the slower kids. 

Another thing they did away with were trade type learning.  Typing, shop, etc.  Loads of kids are more action oriented, don;t want or need college, and will make more money learning a trade.  I did some construction a few years ago in Aviation High School in Long Island CIty NY where Amazon was going to set up a headquarters.  The school's shop is a hanger where jets and reciprocating engine planes were located.  The kids and teachers, dressed in sparkling, white uniforms, were working on the mechanics of airplane repair.  As an ex-air force vet, it was particularly satisfying to see.  I spoke with the teachers, also air force veterans, who showed pride in their work.  As you walked through the school, everyone seemed busy and involved.  The whole school had pride in what they were learning and doing.  We need more of these kind of schools. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1129 on: July 07, 2019, 12:27:51 pm »

Another issue is discipline.  When I was young, I would be afraid to open my mouth to the teacher.  Because I knew when I got home, my parents would have heard about it and handed me my head.  Today, teachers are afraid to tell the students anything.  Many parent don't respect teachers or just take their kid's side regardless. 

I will have to admit though that much comes from the top, the principal.  I did work in over 250 NYC schools.  There are about 1200.  As I walked around in them, you could see which schools were quiet and disciplined and which ones the kids showed no respect, very undisciplined.   I was in one high school where some kids were ripping the security cameras we were installing off the walls before we could connect them.  We knew who the kids were.  I had a meeting with the custodian and principals and security staff.  All 4 principals (there were 4 in one building) said they couldn't do anything.  So I told them they'd have to live with the problem and walked out of the meeting. They were afraid of the kids.  In other schools, I saw principals in the hallway between classes pull kids out of the hallway and berate them if they were just talking.  That school was operating properly.  All the kids were in the classrooms when they should have been.  No one was stealing things off the walls.  You know that principal supported his teachers.   It comes from the top.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1130 on: July 07, 2019, 01:06:13 pm »

Father's Day: the most confusing day in the 'hood  ;)

What's that supposed to be, "loonie left" bait?

Oh wait, let me guess, are you exercising "free speech"? ;)



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Robert

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1131 on: July 07, 2019, 01:11:03 pm »

What's that supposed to be, "loonie left" bait?

Oh wait, let me guess, are you exercising "free speech"? ;)

Nah, it's discrimination (of fathers).

Cheers,
Bart
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1132 on: July 07, 2019, 01:25:41 pm »

What's that supposed to be, "loonie left" bait?

Oh wait, let me guess, are you exercising "free speech"? ;)

Just another unpleasant racist jibe at a guess.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1133 on: July 07, 2019, 01:45:57 pm »

Just another unpleasant...

... truth

“Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers”

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html

« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 05:37:33 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1134 on: July 07, 2019, 02:03:12 pm »

... truth

“Obama Sharply Assails Absent Black Fathers”

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html

And that adds what to a discussion on the American constitution? Seriously Slobodan that’s just blatant trolling. I expected more than that from you. 
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faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1135 on: July 07, 2019, 02:04:45 pm »

Seriously Slobodan that’s just blatant trolling.  I expected more than that from you.
Really? It seems about par for the course.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 02:09:16 pm by faberryman »
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jeremyrh

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1136 on: July 07, 2019, 02:31:52 pm »

And that adds what to a discussion on the American constitution? Seriously Slobodan that’s just blatant trolling. I expected more than that from you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1137 on: July 07, 2019, 02:56:06 pm »

And that adds what to a discussion on the American constitution? Seriously Slobodan that’s just blatant trolling. I expected more than that from you. 

You are kidding, right?

As if on these 57 pages of the thread we are only discussing American constitution!? From building construction, kitchen renovation, to Middle East, to education and parental involvement in the said, these 57 pages were meandering, as forum threads often do.

None of us are constitutional experts (except, of course, Alan Golddigger) so the debate touches upon many aspects of the American life.

The constant whining about income inequality as the source of all evil, and in particular case, low education level, and even more specifically, among the young blacks, is a typical left misdiagnosis, and consequently, source of wrong solutions.

If the black American president (and my racist comrade) can point out the real problem, so can i. He did it professorially, I did it humorously. Both approaches deliver the same message. If you are uncomfortable with hearing the inconvenient truth, feel free to look for the nearest safe space.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1138 on: July 07, 2019, 03:01:08 pm »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_cat_strategy

Let me add more "dead cats":

Quote
Poverty rate among blacks: 21%
Poverty rate among whites: 11%

Poverty rate among MARRIED blacks: 7%

JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #1139 on: July 07, 2019, 03:17:38 pm »

Another situation that affects quality education is politics.  When I was a kid going to school in NYC, classes were separated by ability.  So for example, let's say there were 6 classes for first graders.  The smartest kids would be assigned to Class 101, the next smartest to 102 all the way down to 106 where the slowest would be placed.  I guess the point was that with kids being equal within each class, the teacher could apply the teaching to the class's level of learning.  Politics in the community put an end to that.  So now, slow kids are mixed with smart kids in the same class. The teacher has to spend extra time with the slower kids while the smart kids are sitting around being bored and not covering more learning skills as they ought too.  The teacher cannot challenge the class with more difficult stuff and lose the slower kids. 

Another thing they did away with were trade type learning.  Typing, shop, etc.  Loads of kids are more action oriented, don;t want or need college, and will make more money learning a trade.  I did some construction a few years ago in Aviation High School in Long Island CIty NY where Amazon was going to set up a headquarters.  The school's shop is a hanger where jets and reciprocating engine planes were located.  The kids and teachers, dressed in sparkling, white uniforms, were working on the mechanics of airplane repair.  As an ex-air force vet, it was particularly satisfying to see.  I spoke with the teachers, also air force veterans, who showed pride in their work.  As you walked through the school, everyone seemed busy and involved.  The whole school had pride in what they were learning and doing.  We need more of these kind of schools.

Another issue is discipline.  When I was young, I would be afraid to open my mouth to the teacher.  Because I knew when I got home, my parents would have heard about it and handed me my head.  Today, teachers are afraid to tell the students anything.  Many parent don't respect teachers or just take their kid's side regardless. 

I will have to admit though that much comes from the top, the principal.  I did work in over 250 NYC schools.  There are about 1200.  As I walked around in them, you could see which schools were quiet and disciplined and which ones the kids showed no respect, very undisciplined.   I was in one high school where some kids were ripping the security cameras we were installing off the walls before we could connect them.  We knew who the kids were.  I had a meeting with the custodian and principals and security staff.  All 4 principals (there were 4 in one building) said they couldn't do anything.  So I told them they'd have to live with the problem and walked out of the meeting. They were afraid of the kids.  In other schools, I saw principals in the hallway between classes pull kids out of the hallway and berate them if they were just talking.  That school was operating properly.  All the kids were in the classrooms when they should have been.  No one was stealing things off the walls.  You know that principal supported his teachers.   It comes from the top.

Alan, there are so many things wrong with the education system right now; some are by default and others have to do with politics. 

Although I can see your critique with lack of tracking, tracking is still used today.  It is not necessarily called tracking, just advance, honors, regular, and whatever new politically correct word is used for the lower level kids.  The issue though is that is not nearly as nuanced as it should be for the best performance.  It has been shown that the best environment for a person to learn is one that is 18% to 22% hard then what they can do at a leisure.  Less hard and the person gets bored; more hard and the person gives up.  The problem though is that this would create a dozen different tracks and the funding is just not there.  So I cant really complain about this one since it just would never happen due to the expense. 

Trade courses are still being taught as well, but are not very well advertised.  The type of students who typically go into these classes are those that are bad students since it is assumed that they will not be able to handle the college bound classes, that all other students go into.  The issue though is that some of the "normal" students may be interested in these fields but are discouraged on taking them since they are obviously college bound right ???.  Those normal kids are often never given the opportunity to take these courses. 

Then, even with truly college bound kids, we overload the courses with knowledge that most just do not need (unless they plan on studying that specific field) at the expense of "common" knowledge you actually need to live. 

Russ always gets on the lack of knowledge with civics today, which is a direct result of students being treated like everyone will be a historian.  When you think like this, the question of why bother teaching civics certainly comes up.  In Math we never taught things like balancing a check book or how compound interested works in relation to investments or credit card balances.  What a mortgage is and how it works. 

All these things are cut at the expense of trying to make every student a scholar in every subject, which is just unpractical.  We are training kids to be highly knowledgable but with little ability to function in society. 

As far as my experience went, discipline is only an issue in inner city schools.  I hate to be stereotypical  ;), but inner city schools are run by more liberals, and liberals tend to want to be more nurturing and caring instead of punitive.  The problem though is that you need to be punitive with those 5% of kids who do nothing but goof off, otherwise they will do nothing but distract from the learning experience for everyone else.  Suburban and rural principals tends to be much more punitive.  The principal at my first school I taught at was about 120 lb.  Every student was deathly afraid of him, even the biggest guy. 
« Last Edit: July 07, 2019, 04:20:37 pm by JoeKitchen »
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