Looks Like People Still Care!!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

What's interesting here is that Slobodan surely knows that this is the counter, which begs some questions.

Or I can be that guy who raises his hand in a debate to say: "I have an opinion, but I disagree with it."

[32BT]

I surely know, just trying to separate issues.

However, two things: 1. a welfare state can reduce that difference in life-time earning potential and 2. free education encourages selection of less "profitable" degrees, which then results in baristas with PhD in Philosophy. In which case a plumber, working since the age of 16-18, can outearn the philosophy guy.

The problem with examples is whether they are representative of the average. If white collar work pays less on average than blue collar work, then there is a significant disadvantage in getting education. Both for society as well as the individual. Clearly, this isn't the case (yet), although I readily agree that 1) the value of education is eroding fast for several different reasons some of which have already been pointed out, and 2) there is a significant influx of cheap blue collar labour because laundry still needs to be done and bedcare is desired when hospitalized etc.

We are apparently at the point where we do have the doctors but no longer the nurses. The question of course is whether we can afford to import those services. From an economical perspective the answer seems to be yes, but considering what is currently happening worldwide, from a social and cultural perspective the answer increasingly appears to be no.

[RSL]

What's interesting here is that Slobodan surely knows that this is the counter, which begs some questions.

Arrrrgggghhh. Another product of our sad education system who doesn't understand the phrase "begs the question."

The classic example of begging the question is this: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" In other words, to say that a sentence begs the question is to say that there's an unexamined assumption embedded in the question. It's a tactic used often by left-wing writers. Surely you're not one of those, Andrew.

[Robert Roaldi]

Arrrrgggghhh. Another product of our sad education system who doesn't understand the phrase "begs the question."

The classic example of begging the question is this: "Have you stopped beating your wife?" In other words, to say that a sentence begs the question is to say that there's an unexamined assumption embedded in the question. It's a tactic used often by left-wing writers. Surely you're not one of those, Andrew.

We've had this discussion before. The two usages of the phrase are both in common use now and have been for a while. You just happened to learn one of them first and so make the mistake of thinking it's the correct usage and that the other is wrong, but this is incorrect. This is NOT an issue of grammar. The usage that you favour is merely a connotation that developed over time. Accepting that usage was itself just something that happened, as the denotation of the words in the phrase would NOT lead one to infer that meaning.

English changes all the time, just like climate. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... We are apparently at the point where we do have the doctors but no longer the nurses...

That's an excellent metaphor against the clamoring to send everyone to college (although in the U.S. nurses do have college, and even PhD in Nursing). In order to function, society needs job stratification. Importing might be a short-term solution, but is not in principle (if the whole world becomes one, and everyone is a doctor, where do we import from... Mars?)

[RSL]

We've had this discussion before. The two usages of the phrase are both in common use now and have been for a while. You just happened to learn one of them first and so make the mistake of thinking it's the correct usage and that the other is wrong, but this is incorrect. This is NOT an issue of grammar. The usage that you favour is merely a connotation that developed over time. Accepting that usage was itself just something that happened, as the denotation of the words in the phrase would NOT lead one to infer that meaning.

English changes all the time, just like climate. 

You can believe that if you want to, Robert, and I won’t try to puncture your bubble. But the correct phrase for what Andrew was trying to say is “raises some questions.” Converting that to “begs some questions” is simple exhibitionism: an attempt to sound jazzy. Saying that something “begs some questions” doesn’t even make sense. Why would anything or anybody “beg” a question?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... English Robert changes all the time, just like climate. 

... The idea that costs go up because governments make loans easier to obtain or because government subsidies makes universities less efficient is laughable...

... the notion that the availability of government aid is a factor leading to increasing tuitions, which I think is at best a superficial analysis...

You are progressing toward "perhaps it makes sense"?

[Robert Roaldi]

You are progressing toward "perhaps it makes sense"?

In the strict sense, you're correct. It is possible to conclude that because of misalignment, it is possible to milk the government subsidies in a way that was unintended (but maybe foreseeable), but it is not the existence of the subsidies that is the root cause of the problem. This kind of thing has happened a lot over time, and it is pathetic the way we keep repeating the same mistakes. Some study that showed up in a google search pointed out that this mis-alignment occurs specifically in the case of for profit colleges and is not true in other cases. The chances of me finding that link again are next to zero though, sorry.

[Robert Roaldi]

You can believe that if you want to, Robert, and I won’t try to puncture your bubble. But the correct phrase for what Andrew was trying to say is “raises some questions.” Converting that to “begs some questions” is simple exhibitionism: an attempt to sound jazzy. Saying that something “begs some questions” doesn’t even make sense. Why would anything or anybody “beg” a question?

Yes, I know. "Raises the question" was the more acceptable way to phrase that meaning but usage has changed over time and "begs the question" is also used the same way. Whether one means "raises" or the other meaning is determined from context.

There is nothing in the definition of the individual words "begs", "the", and "question" that would lead one to think that it is not synonymous with "raises". That other meaning is a cultural artifact and has NOTHING to do with grammar.

[RSL]

There's a hell of a lot of difference between "begs" and "asks," which is what "raises" translates into. Begging is an act of despair. It's dramatic. The only reason for using the term "begs the question" meaning "raises the question" is to attempt to be a drama king or drama queen. It's just plain bad writing.

[amolitor]

Honestly, it's an internet forum, and that particular phrase got some editing and back-and-forthing as I removed some expansions and compressed the thought down.

Fair dinkum, Russ. At some point my thought evolved from something I cannot even remember in to "raises some questions" without eliminating the word "begs" which crept in for reasons I no longer recall. I think the meaning was adequately clear, though.

[RSL]

There was never any question about the meaning being clear, Andrew. And {I guess) I apologize for coming down on the wording as hard as I did, but it's something that drives me up the wall every time I see it. Almost as bad as somebody "laying" in the street. I always try to explain the difference this way: "The chicken was lying in the straw, laying eggs."

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

The problem with examples is whether they are representative of the average. If white collar work pays less on average than blue collar work, then there is a significant disadvantage in getting education...

I used a colorful anecdotal evidence for rhetorical purposes. However, about 1/3 of college graduates are underemployed, i.e., work in positions below their degree.

[32BT]

I used a colorful anecdotal evidence for rhetorical purposes. However, about 1/3 of college graduates are underemployed, i.e., work in positions below their degree.

I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are similar in NL. Another devaluation seems to be that a college degree today no longer represents a level of knowledge as before (and not in a good way mind you, like: advancing science implying advancing knowledge). A common complaint from the educational system I seem to read a lot is that students no longer have sufficient basic math skills, yet we manage to churn out more degrees. My limited maths skillzz suggest that those numbers don't quite add up... ;-)

[amolitor]

There is no need to apologize for a reflex like that. I have spent more or my life than I care to admit trying to repair people's usage of its/it's. I understood you perfectly, Russ, and took no offence.

[32BT]

There is no need to apologize for a reflex like that. I have spent more or my life than I care to admit trying to repair people's usage of its/it's. I understood you perfectly, Russ, and took no offence.

Which begs the question whether publicly reprimanding an honest mistake reflects well on any of the participants??? (For the record: that was meant as a rethorical question.)

ps. I'm not an English native speaker, I'm fully exempt from proper use of colloquialism.

[faberryman]

So some guy does a nice thing and all people can do is complain.

[32BT]

So guy does a nice thing and all people can do is complain.

What else is new?

[RSL]

There is no need to apologize for a reflex like that. I have spent more or my life than I care to admit trying to repair people's usage of its/it's. I understood you perfectly, Russ, and took no offence.

Thanks, Andrew. No hard feelings in either direction.

[RSL]

Which begs the question whether publicly reprimanding an honest mistake reflects well on any of the participants??? (For the record: that was meant as a rethorical question.)

ps. I'm not an English native speaker, I'm fully exempt from proper use of colloquialism.

Okay, Oscar. You can beg the question all you want to and lay on the floor. Its all right. We'll let you do any dumb thing you want to do. Hundreds are watching, so do your thing.