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Author Topic: Looks Like People Still Care!!  (Read 21420 times)

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2019, 01:03:32 pm »

No.

I don't care to try to persuade you, because I do not believe you to be persuadable. Why on earth would I expend effort on what I believe to be an impossible task? I have, it turns out, things to do that are not impossible. I am willing to go as far as to place into the record brief statements that contradict the right-wing ideological stances that dominate Lula's forums, on principle, together with adequate wording to allow an interested party to follow up.

I am not willing to attempt to change the minds of what appear to me ideologues, because that leads nowhere.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2019, 01:11:35 pm »

The amount of a typical student loan is not much different than the price of a car. Yet no one ever complained about the need to take a car loan, nor we hear about national car loan crisis. In a few years, the car is gone, while education is going to keep providing benefits for the rest of one’s life.

I noticed that no one bothered to discuss this. I am inviting you all, including Andrew, to poke holes in this analogy. Not because I think it is unassailable, but because I am genuinely interested in hearing counter-arguments.

To provide a personal perspective. My parent loan will probably end up being about $50-$60K in two years, when my daughter graduates. I recently bought a $34K car and took a loan for it. I am generally frugal, so I went for a lowly Camry. Just a slightly more prestigious brands would cost me easily those $50-$60K I am having in student loans.

So, why we do not even blink when we spend the same amount on a car, but complain bitterly about the education (I personally do not)?

Poke away.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2019, 01:15:30 pm »

No.

I don't care to try to persuade you, because I do not believe you to be persuadable. Why on earth would I expend effort on what I believe to be an impossible task? I have, it turns out, things to do that are not impossible. I am willing to go as far as to place into the record brief statements that contradict the right-wing ideological stances that dominate Lula's forums, on principle, together with adequate wording to allow an interested party to follow up.

I am not willing to attempt to change the minds of what appear to me ideologues, because that leads nowhere.

Okay. 

For the record, you have not really provide any of those brief statements that contradict what you disagree with.  You have merely stated you disagree with them with no proof provided.  It's not the same thing. 

People change their minds from logical reason based arguments, not being told to just "trust me, I'm right."  I believe we had an election over this. 

And the idea that I would not change my mind is false, and an argument you are using to try and denigrate me, while at the same time allowing it to be a quality with which you possess. 

If you need an example of when I recently changed my mind on something, it would be on wind and solar.  I use to be for them, now I am not.  I have looked at all the real life results, and along with many leading environmentalists, come to the conclusion they don't work.  5 years ago I was not really for nuclear; I have completely changed my mind on the future of nuclear and feel that it is the only why to get rid of fossil fuels.  That is another topic of course. 
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Chris Kern

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2019, 01:17:08 pm »

I think my biggest surprise with this topic is there are still people on this forum who take Slobo seriously.

Really?  I find the political perspectives of the people on this forum I disagree with—e.g., Slobodan, Russ—more interesting than those of the people I agree with.

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2019, 01:18:37 pm »

Average student loan size is equivalent to the loan on quite a nice car ($37,000 is the figure that popped up for me).

Student loans are incurred earlier, typically before the student has any substantial income. A dollar now is worth more than a dollar a year from now, and correspondingly a debt now is more onerous than the same sized debt later, on average and in general terms. Student loans are also impossible to get out from under (a car be sold or repossessed, a bankruptcy can erase that debt, and, well, perhaps there are other ways out from under your car loan).

The shapes of the two debts strike me as different enough to be interesting.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2019, 01:33:13 pm »

... Student loans are incurred earlier, typically before the student has any substantial income. A dollar now is worth more than a dollar a year from now, and correspondingly a debt now is more onerous than the same sized debt later, on average and in general terms...

Ok, now we are talking. Student loans are not repayable until the student graduates, therefore the initial lack of income is not a problem.

Quote
... Student loans are also impossible to get out from under (a car be sold or repossessed, a bankruptcy can erase that debt, and, well, perhaps there are other ways out from under your car loan)...

True, but for a good reason. Student loans are not dischargeable and usually carry a higher interest rate because there is no collateral, like there is for a mortgage or car. If student loans could be dischargeable through bankruptcy, that would just raise the rate for everyone else (higher risk, higher rate). It would also encourage people to be even less careful with degree selection, knowing that if their French medieval music degree doesn't pan out, they can always hide behind bankruptcy (the moral hazard concept - i.e., "lack of incentive to guard against risk where one is protected from its consequences")

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2019, 01:39:58 pm »

Whether the reasons for the shape of the student loan are good or bad does not strike me as particularly relevant to the question of whether they are, or are not, more onerous than a car loan.

Would it be wise for a a new graduate to purchase, say, a new Toyota Sienna minivan (MSRP $31,000, presumably more after fees and enough options to render it civilized)? I think many would argue that perhaps that would not be a great choice, and perhaps the recent student should look for a good second-hand Corolla.

If not wise at that moment, why? Because a debt burden of that size at that moment in the recent student's life would be foolish and excessively onerous.

It follows, I think trivially, that a similar student loan at that moment in the recent student's life might be similarly considered onerous.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2019, 01:40:45 pm »

Really?  I find the political perspectives of the people on this forum I disagree with—e.g., Slobodan, Russ—more interesting than those of the people I agree with.

I appreciate that, Chris.

I just hope that "interesting" is not just a synonym for entertaining, amusing, or laughable, but rather indicates a different perspective on the matter.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2019, 01:50:58 pm »

Whether the reasons for the shape of the student loan are good or bad does not strike me as particularly relevant to the question of whether they are, or are not, more onerous than a car loan.

Would it be wise for a a new graduate to purchase, say, a new Toyota Sienna minivan (MSRP $31,000, presumably more after fees and enough options to render it civilized)? I think many would argue that perhaps that would not be a great choice, and perhaps the recent student should look for a good second-hand Corolla.

If not wise at that moment, why? Because a debt burden of that size at that moment in the recent student's life would be foolish and excessively onerous.

It follows, I think trivially, that a similar student loan at that moment in the recent student's life might be similarly considered onerous.

So does this apply you are against loans and for free education?  Or could this concern be mitigated by extending the grace period on when loans start to be repaid? 

The idea of free (well actaully tax-payer supplied) higher education is not something you will ever get the majority of the country to buy onto.  However, you probably could get people to think the typical three month grace period after graduation for when student loans need to start to be repaid may be wishful thinking.  Extending that to say a year or so may be something palatable for most in the country. 

It would give a little more breathing room while mitigating the concerns you have listed while at the same preserving the idea of higher education being an investment. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 02:11:11 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2019, 01:54:09 pm »

... Would it be wise for a a new graduate to purchase, say, a new Toyota Sienna minivan (MSRP $31,000, presumably more after fees and enough options to render it civilized)? I think many would argue that perhaps that would not be a great choice, and perhaps the recent student should look for a good second-hand Corolla.

If not wise at that moment, why? Because a debt burden of that size at that moment in the recent student's life would be foolish and excessively onerous.

It follows, I think trivially, that a similar student loan at that moment in the recent student's life might be similarly considered onerous.

I see the validity in that type of argument.

However, a counter-argument could be this: cars are mostly pure expense and loss over time. Car loans are also limited to 5-6 years. Student loans provide for: 1. a lifelong benefit of higher income (with appropriate degree) and 2. student loans are usually for much longer term, with the possibility of percentage linking to the level of income.

An employee that worked for me right out of school had a starting salary of $55K, $60K after one year, and easily $80-$100K in a few years.  Sounds pretty sufficient to carry an average student loan.

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2019, 02:07:10 pm »

Details of student loans are not particularly a hill I want to die on. Having, to my surprise, some to some sort of roughly common ground I am perfectly satisfied to leave it there, Slobodan.

I think college is too expensive, Joe. But I don't think there are any single causes, or quick fixes.
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Kevin Gallagher

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2019, 07:17:48 am »

 At the request of some members whom I admire & respect I have unlocked the topic. Have  at it but please play nice!
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Rob C

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2019, 07:53:55 am »

At the request of some members whom I admire & respect I have unlocked the topic. Have  at it but please play nice!


Way to go!

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2019, 08:20:34 am »

This Fresh Air podcast describes some ways in which college education/tuition policies can go wrong https://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521371034/how-for-profit-colleges-sell-risky-education-to-the-most-vulnerable. It refers back partly to the notion that the availability of government aid is a factor leading to increasing tuitions, which I think is at best a superficial analysis. A "for profit" college model sounds vaguely free marketishy so is an easy sell to some folks, but I think all this shows is how bad policy leads to bad results.

The so-called free market does a fantastic job delivering fresh fruit and consumer electronics but it's not clear that it can solve all problems, especially in its unregulated flavour. The "all government is bad" chant is silly dogma and it's getting old.



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Rob C

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2019, 09:36:53 am »

This Fresh Air podcast describes some ways in which college education/tuition policies can go wrong https://www.npr.org/2017/03/27/521371034/how-for-profit-colleges-sell-risky-education-to-the-most-vulnerable. It refers back partly to the notion that the availability of government aid is a factor leading to increasing tuitions, which I think is at best a superficial analysis. A "for profit" college model sounds vaguely free marketishy so is an easy sell to some folks, but I think all this shows is how bad policy leads to bad results.

The so-called free market does a fantastic job delivering fresh fruit and consumer electronics but it's not clear that it can solve all problems, especially in its unregulated flavour. The "all government is bad" chant is silly dogma and it's getting old.


I tend to agree that there's certainly a place for state endeavour but, as always, exactly where that starts and ends is open to debate.

I would think that education is one such, and could easily be given freely to children. Further education should then depend, as it always did seem to depend in my day, on how well the pupil performed in school. If family money is to be the key to further education, then much potential will be smothered at birth. Grants were what opened the door to university for many of my generation. A problem, of course, is the one of quality, not just of teaching in the public sector - it can't be greater than the quality of pupil allows - but of the domestic time and care given to the education of children after school hours. Again, that inevitably brings me back to the traditional idea of mothers being at home and not in some effin' office instead. The basic problem is simple: nobody can have it both ways and not, then, affect the offspring. I know, first-hand, about this one. We resolved it amicably.

In the case of my own brood, my granddaughters were both sent to private schools because the parents, both teachers, were only too aware of the environmental damage to eductional prospects that the state school environment can threaten. When so many kids come from a home where nobody gives a damn, what chance the kids behaving themselves and not disrupting classes to the cost of the few interested in learning?

The reality of life appears to remain fairly constant: social mobility, both in terms of learning and earning, is a tough nut to crack, if it can be cracked at all.

Some do cross over, against all the odds stacked against them, but those are exceptionally strong-minded individuals. And all kudos to them.

Rob

32BT

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2019, 10:04:58 am »

There's no such thing as a free lunch, as we all know.

The question though is how much worth has education to society? In most of Western-Europe, the retired generation depends on the working generation for their pensions. In addition, society relies on a minimum level of behavioural uniformity. Society expects people to be properly dressed etc... Hence, it stands to reason that society takes the (distributed) costs.

Considering the weight of pensions on the entire economic system, it clearly benefits society to have a workforce with a relatively high level of education. It may be entirely different in countries where people are individually responsible for their pension.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2019, 10:33:35 am »

... Considering the weight of pensions on the entire economic system, it clearly benefits society to have a workforce with a relatively high level of education.

What it benefits the society in that respect is to have working population, because you can tax only those who have income. Delaying employment by four or more years to study delays tax contribution.

32BT

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2019, 10:54:14 am »

What it benefits the society in that respect is to have working population, because you can tax only those who have income. Delaying employment by four or more years to study delays tax contribution.

Which is offset by a higher average income and more competitive global outlook for an educated workforce.
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amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2019, 11:02:02 am »

Which is offset by a higher average income and more competitive global outlook for an educated workforce.

What's interesting here is that Slobodan surely knows that this is the counter, which begs some questions.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2019, 11:20:03 am »

What's interesting here is that Slobodan surely knows that this is the counter, which begs some questions.

I surely know, just trying to separate issues.

However, two things: 1. a welfare state can reduce that difference in life-time earning potential and 2. free education encourages selection of less "profitable" degrees, which then results in baristas with PhD in Philosophy. In which case a plumber, working since the age of 16-18, can outearn the philosophy guy.

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