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Author Topic: Email From B&H  (Read 3066 times)

Kevin Gallagher

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Email From B&H
« on: May 07, 2019, 08:26:22 am »

  Just wondering how many of us might have gotten one of these? "Interesting" doesn't begin to describe the possibilities!

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RSL

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2019, 09:08:54 am »

Thanks, Kevin. Haven't received that one yet, though I bought a lens for my Pen-F from B&H last week. The idea that a New York outfit should collect Florida sales tax is so absurd it could only come from left-wingers. Maybe the inevitably coming capture of House, Senate and Presidency by Republicans now that the Democrats mental crackup is complete and obvious to everyone literate enough to read, will lead to a law clear enough to let the courts know how absurd the sales tax situation is. But I'm happy that I already have enough photo gear to see me out.
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Rob C

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2019, 10:11:02 am »

Sadly, whilst making life easier for the giants, it does nothing for all the little local camera shops that used to give sterling service and knowledgeable advice on the things they sold. I really dislike the eat your competitors mentality; there used to be room for everyone until the bean counters took an interest in the moving of units.

Rather than any real political plus for any party, I think what it reveals is the madness of not having country-wide common laws and tax regulations. Is America a country or is it not? The states system would make it appear a bit like a more dysfunctional version of Europe... but with guns and more lethal animals and reptiles. In other words, exactly the awkward place where Britain will be headed if Brexit happens, but without the beasties: we're killing off even the safe and indispensable ones - by the species - as it is.

:-)

Chris Kern

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2019, 12:01:30 pm »

The idea that a New York outfit should collect Florida sales tax is so absurd it could only come from left-wingers.

Hardly.  This "left-wing idea" was the result of a 2018 Supreme Court ruling regarding the continuing validity of earlier Supreme Court decisions regarding the commerce clause of the U.S. Constitution in an era of Internet commerce.  The five Supreme Court justices forming the majority were Kennedy, Thomas, Alito, Ginzburg, and Gorsuch.  (Roberts, Breyer, Sotomayor, and Kagan dissented.)  The disagreement among the members of the Court was clearly based on jurisprudential rather than ideological grounds.

Rather than any real political plus for any party, I think what it reveals is the madness of not having country-wide common laws and tax regulations.

The Court's decision in this case wasn't a "political plus" for any party.  To the extent that the ruling created winners and losers, the winners are local retailers which always have been required to collect state sales tax from their walk-in customers; the losers are national retailers with large online sales volumes which previously were not collecting sales tax on purchases except for states in which they had a "physical presence" (e.g., a physical store within the state.)

The Supreme Court ruling is the latest refinement in a long line of judicial decisions regarding the extent to which a constitutional provision giving Congress (i.e., the federal government) the authority "to regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states" allows state governments to impose taxes that arguably could be considered an impediment to the free flow of commerce between states.

The United States is a common law jurisdiction, and this incremental approach to interpreting statutes passed by Congress, and especially the more general provisions in our written constitution, is a fundamental element of the country's legal DNA.  One fundamental issue in the particular litigation which led to this ruling—probably the decisive one—was the extent to which prior rulings should control the outcome of a particular case, a doctrine known as stare decisis.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2019, 01:08:13 pm »

Chris, Chris, what are you doing!? Injecting facts into this lovely debate? Tsk, tsk! ;)

Not paying tax has created an unfair advantage for online retailers. While it might have made some sense in the beginning of online activities, to spur the growth, it hardly makes sense now, when it is both uber-rich and quite dominant (e.g. Amazon).

Chris Kern

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2019, 01:31:48 pm »

Not paying tax has created an unfair advantage for online retailers. While it might have made some sense in the beginning of online activities, to spur the growth, it hardly makes sense now

Indeed, as the Court acknowledged, the earlier doctrine (i.e., that a state could not require out-of-state sellers to collect taxes on purchases by its residents because that would create an undue burden on interstate commerce) had the effect of strangling many local retailers who simply couldn't compete with the price-points and sales policies of the online giants.

However, this new credit card that B&H has cooked up will effectively restore B&H's competitive advantage—at least for purchasers who qualify for and are willing to acquire one.  Of course, local retail outlets are free to match the B&H discounts for their walk-in customers, at least in theory, but it's unlikely many of them will be able to afford to shave their margins to that extent.

Aram Hăvărneanu

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2019, 04:20:14 pm »

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RSL

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2019, 05:05:21 pm »

Hi Chris, I’ll grant your point on the SC decision, though the fact that Kennedy was part of the majority makes it a bit less overwhelming. But I wasn’t aware that my SC conservatives were that far off track. Mea culpa. I should have checked.

I do understand your argument, augmented by Slobodan, that online competition causes pain for local retailers.

So I guess the fact that a small retailer in Nebraska who sells a unique product by mail must now know the state, county and city sales tax rates for East Overshoe in Backwater county, Oregon, collect for all three political entities, obtain and fill out tax submission forms and mail in the tax for all three: maybe $.12 for Oregon, $.04 for Backwater County, and $.08 for the City of East Overshoe. No sweat. Any small retailer has plenty of spare time and extra postage money for this kind of crap. I know, because there was a time when my wife had that kind of business. Had she had to collect sales tax for the thousands of taxing entities in the U.S. she’d have simply dumped the whole thing and gone out of business.

Prior to this decision it was up to the state, county, and city to collect from the purchaser of the item. The fact that there was no workable way to do that shouldn’t have thrown the burden onto the retailer. The law needs to be rewritten.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2019, 05:34:56 pm »

Russ, you have a point on complications. However, it is a matter of setting up a centralized national data base of various sales tax rates by county, to which retailers would have access. It can be completely automated. Just like postage, based on zip code.

Chris Kern

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2019, 06:02:42 pm »

So I guess the fact that a small retailer in Nebraska who sells a unique product by mail must now know the state, county and city sales tax rates for East Overshoe in Backwater county, Oregon, collect for all three political entities, obtain and fill out tax submission forms and mail in the tax for all three: maybe $.12 for Oregon, $.04 for Backwater County, and $.08 for the City of East Overshoe. No sweat. Any small retailer has plenty of spare time and extra postage money for this kind of crap. I know, because there was a time when my wife had that kind of business. Had she had to collect sales tax for the thousands of taxing entities in the U.S. she’d have simply dumped the whole thing and gone out of business.

The Supreme Court's opinion acknowledged this concern.  It noted that reasonably-priced software to make interstate tax collection relatively effortless is likely to soon become available.  It also pointed out that the statute which was the subject of the Court's ruling, a South Dakota law requiring Internet businesses to collect sales tax on the state's behalf, was explicitly crafted to ameliorate its effect on small businesses:

Quote
South Dakota affords small mer­chants a reasonable degree of protection. The law at issue requires a merchant to collect the tax only if it does a considerable amount of business in the State; the law is not retroactive; and South Dakota is a party to the Streamlined Sales and Use Tax Agreement. . . . *

From what I've read the other states that have passed statutes requiring out-of-state retailers to collect sales tax from their residents also have exempted businesses unless their residents account for a substantial volume of sales.  The states have an interest in not crafting their statutes too broadly because, as the Court pointed out, businesses that are unduly burdened by a requirement to collect taxes from the residents of other states continue to have legal remedies available under earlier judicial opinions interpreting the commerce clause that have not been overruled by the South Dakota ruling.

———
*The Streamlined Sales and Use Tax Agreement is a compact, currently comprising more than half the states, to simplify interstate tax collection.

RSL

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2019, 07:47:34 pm »

Russ, you have a point on complications. However, it is a matter of setting up a centralized national data base of various sales tax rates by county, to which retailers would have access. It can be completely automated. Just like postage, based on zip code.

Just what we need, Slobodan: another government agency to mess with your life. I see this crap coming and it makes me damn glad I'm 89.
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RSL

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2019, 08:00:59 pm »

The Supreme Court's opinion acknowledged this concern.  It noted that reasonably-priced software to make interstate tax collection relatively effortless is likely to soon become available.  It also pointed out that the statute which was the subject of the Court's ruling, a South Dakota law requiring Internet businesses to collect sales tax on the state's behalf, was explicitly crafted to ameliorate its effect on small businesses:

From what I've read the other states that have passed statutes requiring out-of-state retailers to collect sales tax from their residents also have exempted businesses unless their residents account for a substantial volume of sales.  The states have an interest in not crafting their statutes too broadly because, as the Court pointed out, businesses that are unduly burdened by a requirement to collect taxes from the residents of other states continue to have legal remedies available under earlier judicial opinions interpreting the commerce clause that have not been overruled by the South Dakota ruling.

That’s great, Chris. And who’s to determine what constitutes “a considerable amount of business in the State?” Oh. Yeah. A state bureaucracy no doubt. Well, that’s reassuring. And if I’m a small business “unduly burdened” by a requirement to collect taxes from the residents of other states and I continue to have legal remedies available under earlier judicial opinions, of course I’ll just hire a team of lawyers to discover what those “remedies” are, and then pursue them. That’ll all come for a pittance of course. And evidently the Supremes have gotten into the software development business since they’re sure that “reasonably-priced software to make interstate tax collection relatively effortless is likely to soon become available.”
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DP

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2019, 10:05:36 pm »

I probably missed something - do we have political discussions allowed again ? because I just read the words "left-wingers" here...
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Chris Kern

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2019, 10:25:04 pm »

I probably missed something - do we have political discussions allowed again ?

Yes.  The floodgates were reopened about a month ago.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2019, 03:38:25 am »

Yes.  The floodgates were reopened about a month ago.

True; although the flow has been more of a trickle than a flood.

Jeremy
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Rob C

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2019, 04:21:13 am »

The thing is, this is a problem that goes beyond the Internet.

Fair trading has been absent for a considerable time now. The remedy lies not primarily in law, but in common sense and the manufacturers seeing the wood for the trees.

My local camera dealer in Scotland used to carry Leica, Nkon and Hasselblad. Though I never bought Leica I bought and kept each of the other two systems during those years there.

One day, I walked over to his shop to buy something for my 'blad system and he turned me down. Asked what was up, he said he had been "let go" becaused he could not provide the sales numbers that the big guys in Leeds and London could. He went on to explain that 'blad was asking for more money per camera from him than the folks in London were selling the cameras for at the time. That any maker thinks it right to charge one price to a big retail company and yet a higher one to a small, beggars belief. It is mad on at least two counts: the unit is making the maker less money when sold to the big dealership; if you wanted a 'blad nothing was gonna make you buy a Bronica (probably playing the same game, anyway), so 'blad was going to make a sale to you regardless. Thus, Mr Maker was making less, overall, per unit than if he sold to all his retailers in the same country at the same price because in the end, the same number of units was going to ship.

Yes, that is commercial blindness and leads to fewer and fewer shops remaining in business and providing that first-hand experience that can make you pull out your cheque book or card right on the spot

I wrote at the start that the remedy perhaps lay not in law but in common sense. On reconsideration, perhaps it should lie in law and makers be prevented from supplying at different, discriminatory prices, to different clients. For a start, it would help keep the high streets from becoming graffiti studios, and keep more local business alive. If anyone thinks paying twenty bucks more on a few hundred bucks worth of equipment is too much, maybe they shouldn't be buying at all. And that's the kind of margin I was talking about. When I was buying 'blad it would have made no difference to me whatsoever.

Free markets sound great in theory but they do not always work that way. The giants always manage to destroy the small people, and even the small people that have success often find they have to sell themselves to giants to stay in business against bigger competitors. The fashion business is full of examples of that, where great ideas become swallowed up by huge corporations. More control, in fewer and fewer hands, is ultimately not good for anyone but the controllers.

Just this mornng I was listening on Sky News to a Glasgow taxi driver who had been with Uber for a year. He ended up, after that year, at around £ 4 per hour with a Mercedes to pay for... Uber is going public today for how many billions? This should prompt anyone with the capacity for thought to think! Is it the future we want? And make no mistake, it affects every single one of us,

32BT

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2019, 06:39:31 am »

Free markets sound great in theory but they do not always work that way.

Rob, first of all, remember that there is no such thing as a free market. Every market is deliberately or inadvertently manipulated in some way, shape, or form. The problem usually being subsidies, tax-reduction, prohibition, or other government intervention. That said: the problem as described in your post seems to indicate you project a Pro mindset on a consumer problem. The "free market" is driven by the "average consumer" and very apparently the average consumer prioritises price and delivery convenience over quality and service. Hence, big internutz retailers offering low prices, with low payment barriers, and quick delivery will prevail.

Latest reports in NL are that current consumer behaviour is to order several versions and sizes of one particular item with already the intent of returning the unwanted variants or items to the retailer, courtesy of the free delivery and return policy. You can imagine that returned items require significant processing before resale.

While delivery and return are currently "free" or "gratuitous" above a certain pricelimit, clearly the above purchasing method is unsustainable. However, because of competition, we will see more funds poured into offering these unprofitable services to win the race, which means: less funding into decent marketing, and price erosion in delivery. Imagine a country full of 18year old kids with a fresh driver's license and barely reasonable drivingskillz attempting to deliver dozens of packages in too little time using a large delivery van in urban areas and congested cities, with kids playing on the street and all...

Perhaps just as well the small shops all close down. You won't have a reason to leave the relative safety of home and risk going downtown.

;-(
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Rob C

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2019, 07:01:00 am »

Hi Oscar.

I don't think that convenience is real: whenever I have had to buy from London I have specified mail delivery, which costs me more. I prefer paying a bit more because using the private delivery systems makes me hang on waiting on the pleasure of some delivery van coming up to service the north end of the island. Who knows when they feel like turning up!

With mail, it goes to my PO Box and waits there until I find it a good moment to go pick it up. They even send me a text message now saying I have a package.

As for all the bother of packing stuff up to return, God, no!

Rob

KLaban

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2019, 08:03:39 am »

In terms of camera retailers I've never been better served or had more choice than I have now.

I can choose between smaller independent specialist dealers or larger outlets providing a vast array of manufacturer's goods. They all have good knowledge of product and exemplary service. They all have bricks and mortar shops as well as efficient online outlets. They all offer competitive pricing. All the above are trading today because they offer all of these qualities.

It's all too easy to crave a return to that oft remembered golden era in the mists of time, but I'll stick with the now and the reality.

jeremyrh

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Re: Email From B&H
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2019, 08:22:35 am »

True; although the flow has been more of a trickle than a flood.

Jeremy

That's what happens as you get older.
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