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Author Topic: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?  (Read 10219 times)

michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #140 on: August 05, 2019, 01:33:49 am »

Already started the wheels on a return or replacement... barring a solution that NEC can offer with the existing display.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #141 on: August 06, 2019, 08:45:44 pm »

I just discovered something while I was on the phone with the service people at NEC...

My monitor firmware was updated to 1.302 per the firmware update, but the firmware in the Spectraview II report summary page is showing 1.008. The monitor reports 1.302 in the OSD.

I just tried doing the FW update again, and it is still showing the 1.008 in SV.

I'm not sure, but I suspect this may be why the calibration improved some from before, but didn't get fixed entirely.  I think the FW update is not completely updating the monitor and it is leaving the Green channel non-updated.

Can anyone look at their FW number in SV (in the Summary sheet after a calibration), and tell me if they are getting the same result (that the FW on the OSD does not match the SV value)?  Also, are you getting a good (less than 1 delta E) range of values as Andrew showed in his monitor calibration results?

I don't know if there was a FW update before this one (1.302), so if you have updated before this version, it may be working correctly and you may be getting good results. Or maybe not...
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dchew

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #142 on: August 06, 2019, 09:15:33 pm »

I just calibrated mine again; says the same thing. Results are bad but it hasn't been on long so might not be warmed up.

Dave


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jmlphotography

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #143 on: August 07, 2019, 12:13:24 pm »

If you do a search for "Spectraview Updates" you will get a page that lists all the versions.  The latest is 1.1.39.  I called Tech Support the other day complaining of suddenly getting huge Delta E's.  The rep advised that I should go back and install version 1.134 or earlier.  I did that and initially still got large a Delta E but was also told that I needed to reset my luminance to 83CDM. (My target was 90).  I did that and my Delta E was then .55.  My screen brightness does not appear to have diminished at all and seems quite bright to me. I assume because my eyes/brain adjusted but maybe something else is going on.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #144 on: August 07, 2019, 03:11:49 pm »

I just calibrated mine again; says the same thing. Results are bad but it hasn't been on long so might not be warmed up.

Dave

Looks like yours is doing the same thing, but your results appear much better then mine, so nothing is clear to me at this point.

NEC has escalated the ticket to Level 2.  Not sure what it means, but they are looking into it.
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Arlen

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #145 on: August 08, 2019, 05:30:34 pm »

So here is a question: Is this problem that a screen must manifest straight out of the box, or is it the case that the screen may be fine initially but develop this problem over time?
From my experience and what I could glean from support, Straight out of the box or you are good.

Well Iím seeing behavior that makes me wonder about that conclusion. I purchased a new PA271Q, installed the latest version (1.1.39) of Spectraview, and first calibrated it on 7/25/19 using the included NEC MDSVSENSOR3. My initial calibrations using several different target settings showed Color Tracking Delta-E values similar to Andrewís, and I thought I had escaped with a good unit that doesnít exhibit the problems described in this thread. A few examples of the results:















However, 9 days later on 8/3, after a restart of my Windows 10 computer, a Spectraview message popped up on my screen saying that the monitor was not calibrated. What?? Not even out of date (which it shouldnít have been), but uncalibrated. I scratched my head over that, but recreated the target files and calibrated the monitor again. Examples of the results:











As you can see from that last set, the D-E values were much larger for all the target calibrations. Not as bad as some here have reported, but problematic nevertheless. What caused this? What happened to make SV lose its previous calibrations, and to do much worse upon recalibration? Iíve spent the last several days pondering that and testing a variety of things, trying to get back to where I was with that first set of calibrations. Iíve gone back through this thread multiple times, looking at all the reports and suggestions. Hereís what Iíve tried, not necessarily in this order:

1.   Different usb ports connecting the sensor (I had used one on the monitor on 8/3, but one on the computer on 7/25). Result: no effect.
2.   Factory Reset the monitor. Result: made things a little worse.
3.   Updated Firmware from R1.202 to r1.302, which Czornyj reported in this thread had fixed the problem. Result: a substantial improvement, but still much worse than my initial result on 7/25, and much worse than the results Andrew has shown in this thread for his monitor.
4.   Monitor Self Calibration & Validation. Result: an additional small improvement, but still much worse than my initial result on 7/25, and much worse than the results Andrew has shown in this thread.
5.   Loaded Czornyjís monitor settings that he made available earlier in this thread. Result: made things a little worse.
6.   Uninstalled Spectraview 1.1.39 and installed 1.1.37, the earliest version claiming support for the PA271Q. Result: made things a little worse. (I was not able to roll back to v.1.1.34 as user Jmlphotography said above that he was told to do by NEC, because that version does not support the PA271Q, and SV thus balked when I tried. Lowering luminance of target to 83, from my targetís 120, as he said NEC also suggested, did not help.)
7.   Calibration using a ColorMunki Photo sensor. Result: gave values very similar to MDSVSENSOR3, so no improvement.
8.   Calibration precision test. Result: I found that if calibrations were repeated one right after the other for the same target, there seemed to be a small but steady rise in the Color Tracking D-E values; but not if some time (e.g., 1h) elapsed between them.

Thus the only things that have so far helped for me are updating the monitor firmware to version 1.1.39, and performing a monitor Self Calibration & Validation. Here are examples of my most recent SV calibrations, including one with Andrewís target that he provided us:














Where to go from here? Given the apparent prevalence of this problem, as illustrated in this thread, Iím not confident that a return for replacement will yield a unit lacking the issue. And even this one seemed OK at first, which is particularly puzzling. Still, Iíve been happily using this NEC line for years, and have another one at a separate workstation, so I donít want to switch to another brand.

Are we making too much of this issue? For me, the calibration targets for printing that have reduced contrast, e.g. 200:1 or 300:1, give the lowest Grayscale Delta-E values, and that is the situation for which color fidelity is most important. Average D-E values of about 0.75 and max values of about 1.20, as Iím getting now for target 6000K 120cdm 200-1Contrast, are I think considered quite good, even though they are still significantly higher than the values of avg =0.27 and max=0.61 that I saw on my very first calibration of this target. My biggest fear though is that these somewhat elevated numbers might indicate an increased possibility of early failure, and an accelerated increase in tracking error over time.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 08:45:38 pm by Arlen »
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faberryman

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #146 on: August 08, 2019, 05:41:12 pm »

Query: are the NEC Spectraview monitors worth buying?

michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #147 on: August 08, 2019, 06:05:10 pm »

Query: are the NEC Spectraview monitors worth buying?

My opinion based on my current experience, is no.  I'm saying that as someone who has had quality NEC LCD displays since the beginning.

If they fix the issue, I will change my response, but frankly, I wouldn't pay $1300 for a monitor that calibrates like this fresh out of the box.  Add to that the observations of Arlen above, and I wonder if they have manufactured something with an early failure problem that is going to yield loads of issues in the years to come.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #148 on: August 08, 2019, 06:21:35 pm »

Well Iím seeing behavior that makes me wonder about that conclusion. I purchased a new PA271Q, installed the latest version (1.1.39) of Spectraview, and first calibrated it on 7/25/19 using the included NEC MDSVSENSOR3. My initial calibrations using several different target settings showed Color Tracking Delta-E values similar to Andrewís, and I thought I had escaped with a good unit that doesnít exhibit the problems described in this thread. A few examples of the results:

...


Where to go from here? Given the apparent prevalence of this problem, as illustrated in this thread, Iím not confident that a return for replacement will yield a unit lacking the issue. And even this one seemed OK at first, which is particularly puzzling. Still, Iíve been happily using this NEC line for years, and have another one at a separate workstation, so I donít want to switch to another brand.

Are we making too much of this issue? For me, the calibration targets for printing that have reduced contrast, e.g. 200:1 or 300:1, give the lowest Grayscale Delta-E values, and that is the situation for which color fidelity is most important. Average D-E values of about 0.75 and max values of about 1.20, as Iím getting now for target 6000K 120cdm 200-1Contrast, are I think considered quite good, even though they are still significantly higher than the values of avg =0.27 and max=0.61 that I saw on my very first calibration of this target. My biggest fear though is that these somewhat elevated numbers might indicate an increased possibility of early failure, and an accelerated increase in tracking error over time.

Arlen, can you look at the summary pages and determine what firmware the SV software thinks you have on the monitor BEFORE and AFTER the FW update?

Someone else had commented on their calibrations getting worse earlier in the thread, but I believe they thought it was tied to updating the SV software.  Maybe it wasn't after all.

Thanks,

---Michael
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Arlen

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #149 on: August 08, 2019, 06:49:33 pm »

Yes, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to mention that. All of the summary pages, both before and after the FW update, have V1.008 listed for the version. EXCEPT: for the very first calibrations that I ran, on 7/25, that looked good but later disappeared; they all say "N/A" for Firmware, Current Usage, and Last Calibration. Strange.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #150 on: August 08, 2019, 06:54:44 pm »

Yes, thanks for reminding me, I forgot to mention that. All of the summary pages, both before and after the FW update, have V1.008 listed for the version. EXCEPT: for the very first calibrations that I ran, on 7/25, that looked good but later disappeared; they all say "N/A" for Firmware, Current Usage, and Last Calibration. Strange.

Interesting... thanks for the info.  It sounds to me like SV is not properly pulling that from the monitors.

Do you have a USB connection to your monitor in addition to the video connection?  I haven't tried disconnecting that to see what will happen with SV and calibration.  I'll try that tonight.
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Arlen

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #151 on: August 08, 2019, 07:03:22 pm »

That's a good thought. I do have a USB connection between computer and monitor. But I'm not sure that I did on 7/25, when I first set it up and ran those first calibrations. I'll test disconnecting that too, but right now I have to shut down my computer because we're being hit by an electrical storm.
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dchew

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #152 on: August 08, 2019, 07:55:56 pm »

That's a good thought. I do have a USB connection between computer and monitor.

So do I. I will run some tests tonight too. Your comment about multiple calibrations in succession is also interesting. Thatís when I got the best results.

Dave
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dchew

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #153 on: August 08, 2019, 08:22:38 pm »

Now the menu system doesn't work at all. This thing is driving me crazy.
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dchew

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #154 on: August 08, 2019, 08:56:16 pm »

Unplugged everything, switched to USB-C / Thunderbolt 3 monitor connection. MDSVSENSOR3 connected directly to computer.

On-screen menu still doesn't work, but for some reason the results are better.

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Arlen

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #155 on: August 09, 2019, 12:01:23 am »

Your results look better than any of my recent ones, Dave. If I get those results consistently, I think I will just call it good enough.
My monitor to computer connection is Displayport/Displayport. I removed the USB connection and ran the calibration on my standard print settings target. Restarted the computer, waited 30min and ran it again. No significant difference without the USB connection, unfortunately. D-E avg. ~0.70, max ~1.17.
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dchew

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #156 on: August 09, 2019, 06:52:00 am »

After another calibration, mine is back to (ab)normal. ~1 avg dE, max ~2.8. No correlation with anything that I can figure out. Maybe how accurate the dark target ends up, but not sure.

Regardless, I've compared standard images when I get "good" results like my previous post vs. the more normal ~ 1avg/3max, and I cannot see any difference unless I really dig in shadows and convince myself I can. So, in my case I'm chasing ghosts for the most part. That doesn't mean it is ok, nor am I suggesting anyone else come to that conclusion. I've just decided to move on and not worry about it. I still suspect Marcin is correct and this is just a software/firmware problem that will eventually be fixed. In the mean time, I'll post if/when I learn anything new.

Dave

PS. A few days ago I updated new a new SV version 1.1.39 / build 181031. When I did that, there was a setting in preferences to lock the menu when calibrated that got checked as a result of the update. That's why my on-screen menu wouldn't work.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #157 on: August 09, 2019, 11:43:59 am »

After another calibration, mine is back to (ab)normal. ~1 avg dE, max ~2.8. No correlation with anything that I can figure out. Maybe how accurate the dark target ends up, but not sure.

Regardless, I've compared standard images when I get "good" results like my previous post vs. the more normal ~ 1avg/3max, and I cannot see any difference unless I really dig in shadows and convince myself I can. So, in my case I'm chasing ghosts for the most part. That doesn't mean it is ok, nor am I suggesting anyone else come to that conclusion. I've just decided to move on and not worry about it. I still suspect Marcin is correct and this is just a software/firmware problem that will eventually be fixed. In the mean time, I'll post if/when I learn anything new.

Dave

PS. A few days ago I updated new a new SV version 1.1.39 / build 181031. When I did that, there was a setting in preferences to lock the menu when calibrated that got checked as a result of the update. That's why my on-screen menu wouldn't work.

Yours are pretty god and are clearly better than mine.  I think I'd be satisfied if I were getting your results as well.
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michael_mutmansky

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #158 on: August 09, 2019, 12:33:21 pm »

Possibly unrelated (who knows at this point?) but can anyone tell me if the XRite iDisplay Pro can be used for the internal calibration on this monitor?

I've had this for a few years because I have more than the NEC monitor here.  It appears to recognize it fine, but the internal calibration fails when I try that.  I suspect they locked it to the NEC only model, but I haven't found anything that confirms that the NEC model is the only one that can do internal calibration.

Thanks,

---Michael
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Arlen

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Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
« Reply #159 on: August 09, 2019, 02:18:51 pm »

I don't have that sensor, but the release notes for the latest version of Spectraview says it is compatible with that program:  "X-Rite i1Display Pro: This version includes support for the X-Rite i1Display Pro color sensor." Moreover, I'm able to calibrate the PA271Q with the XRite Colormunki Photo sensor, in addition to the NEC sensor, so it's not locked to just the NEC branded model.
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