Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:04:31 pm

Title: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:04:31 pm
I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.

Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: dehnhaide on March 10, 2019, 01:07:34 pm
I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.
Maybe some details about the calibration conditions, spectrometer type, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 10, 2019, 01:10:42 pm
Why are you using dE(94) for this verification?

What profiling and profile verification package are you using?

If this were a dE(76) or dE(2000) number and the verification procedure were valid, to answer your question, no, the results are not very good.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: dehnhaide on March 10, 2019, 01:13:26 pm
Why are you using dE(94) for this verification?

What profiling and profile verification package are you using?

If this were a dE(76) or dE(2000) number and the verification procedure were valid, to answer your question, no, the results are not very good.
I get the same ranges under dE(94). I had the same question to ask but wanted to leave the OP detail his means of doing the calibration. Maybe he's into smth.
With dE(00) the results are just fine, at least with my PA271Q.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 10, 2019, 01:18:59 pm
I think the OP should advise what results he gets with dE(00) or dE(76). If those numbers look good, he has no problem.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2019, 01:22:24 pm
No, something is very wrong; here's my report just produced.

Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 10, 2019, 01:23:26 pm
I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.

There is smth fishy about those figures. I see you're using SpectraView for calibration (actually for HW LUT that's the only option, afaik).
The dE(94) is what SpectraView is using for displaying "Color Tracking" report so that's fine. What I don't fine OK is that for me average is 0.47 and the d(max) is 1.68 - darks included.
Could you please detail what spectrometer you're using? And also... could you share the other tabs results in SpectraView, e.g. Color Gamut, Curves.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2019, 01:28:47 pm
I think the OP should advise what results he gets with dE(00) or dE(76). If those numbers look good, he has no problem.
The formula is fixed in this product on the main report using Delta E CIE 94 but this one report might be using Delta H (ΔH). Will H from NEC might be able to comment if he see's this or I can ping him to take a look here.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 10, 2019, 01:29:13 pm
I think the OP should advise what results he gets with dE(00) or dE(76). If those numbers look good, he has no problem.

Hi Mark,

I'm afraid there's no such dE(00)... Or I couldn't find it myself so far!  :o
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2019, 01:31:54 pm
Hi Mark,

I'm afraid there's no such dE(00)... Or I couldn't find it myself so far!  :o
Correct. At least according to the manual. Further, the numbers the OP is getting is off the charts no matter the formula used. Toggling between the two if possible would never account for the high values we are seeing.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 10, 2019, 01:34:17 pm
I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.

No sure what is that "Photo Editing"... I hope though you're calibrating the PA271Q color gamut to "Native (full)". That's the only thing I could think it would trigger such large dE(94) values. Of course, aside from a defective monitor and/or spectrometer.

 
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:40:12 pm
To answer some questions.

The is with the NEC i1 display pro 3. I also have an older i1 I have from an older spectraview monitor - same result. I have tried different graphics cards, cables, monitor settings, spectraview versions all with the same result. The green curve is also off from factory,
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 10, 2019, 01:41:30 pm
Correct. At least according to the manual. Further, the numbers the OP is getting is off the charts no matter the formula used. Toggling between the two if possible would never account for the high values we are seeing.

OK, as I don't use Spectraview I wouldn't have known that. Any idea why they use dE(94)?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2019, 01:41:51 pm
How long have you had this issue?
I suspect you'll need to give NEC a call.
You might give MultiProfiler a try.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 10, 2019, 01:45:59 pm
To answer some questions.

The is with the NEC i1 display pro 3. I also have an older i1 I have from an older spectraview monitor - same result. I have tried different graphics cards, cables, monitor settings, spectraview versions all with the same result. The green curve is also off from factory,

Not trying to tease you... but I would have expected PERFECT with NEC's own variant of MDSV Sensor 3. Weird, anyway! Still, are you sure you're calibrating to Native (full) gamut? Just asking...
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:47:45 pm
How long have you had this issue?
I suspect you'll need to give NEC a call.
You might give MultiProfiler a try.

I have been in contact with NEC for this last week. They have kicked it up to engineering but they seem to be having some difficulty getting back to me.
I have had it less than 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:49:32 pm
Not trying to tease you... but I would have expected PERFECT with NEC's own variant of MDSV Sensor 3. Weird, anyway! Still, are you sure you're calibrating to Native (full) gamut? Just asking...

Yes, me too. I have been using an NEC LCD2490WUXI prior to this.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 01:56:22 pm
No sure what is that "Photo Editing"... I hope though you're calibrating the PA271Q color gamut to "Native (full)". That's the only thing I could think it would trigger such large dE(94) values. Of course, aside from a defective monitor and/or spectrometer.

Photo Editing is monitor full gamut. I have used a spectrometer (i1)  that I know was good with the same result.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 02:20:57 pm
No, something is very wrong; here's my report just produced.

Thanks. Is that from a PA271q as well? I am getting some weird communication from NEC support about this monitor.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: howardm on March 10, 2019, 02:24:43 pm
One thing not mentioned is monitor 'tilt' and how flat the sensor may be to the surface and the room ambient lighting.

Tilt the monitor back and put a black t-shirt over it to keep out stray light.  It'd be interesting to know if that made any difference.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 02:33:08 pm
One thing not mentioned is monitor 'tilt' and how flat the sensor may be to the surface and the room ambient lighting.

Tilt the monitor back and put a black t-shirt over it to keep out stray light.  It'd be interesting to know if that made any difference.

Thanks,

I do always tilt the monitor back (you really almost have to) and I do the calibration in a dark room.  I used the same procedure on my older spectraview monitor with no issues.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 10, 2019, 02:37:39 pm
For photo editing the contrast value is way to high.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 10, 2019, 02:40:31 pm
Thanks,

I do always tilt the monitor back (you really almost have to) and I do the calibration in a dark room.  I used the same procedure on my older spectraview monitor with no issues.

I agree with Andrew that this begins to look more and more like a product issue that you need to get to the bottom of with NEC Solutions Inc. Curious to know what exactly have they advised so far?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 03:11:29 pm
For photo editing the contrast value is way to high.

 I have tried lower contrast as well with the same result.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 03:31:00 pm
I have tried lower contrast as well with the same result.

They have said the white point is good but there is something wrong with the gray scale, and kicked it up to engineering. That was last Tuesday. I hadn't heard back so called Friday. I was told the engineers were out of town to JP so couldn't communicate with them because of time difference. I asked about putting this on  their DOA policy and shipping me a new monitor and was told that a replacement monitor may not resolve the issue with this series of monitor (???), but that they would have some plan of action by the end of Friday - probably shipping me a monitor. I never heard back on Friday, so plan to call them again on Monday.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 10, 2019, 03:31:05 pm
For photo editing the contrast value is way to high.
It's too high for a print but that doesn't mean it's too high for other kinds of image viewing. And this has absolutely nothing to do with the dE errors of gray  (or the amount of gamut).
Doesn't appear to be the instrument. Could be a software bug or an issue with the hardware. But no settings available for the user should produce such high gray deltas.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Mark D Segal on March 10, 2019, 03:35:55 pm
They have said the white point is good but there is something wrong with the gray scale, and kicked it up to engineering. That was last Tuesday. I hadn't heard back so called Friday. I was told the engineers were out of town to JP so couldn't communicate with them because of time difference. I asked about putting this on  their DOA policy and shipping me a new monitor and was told that a replacement monitor may not resolve the issue with this series of monitor (???), but that they would have some plan of action by the end of Friday - probably shipping me a monitor. I never heard back on Friday, so plan to call them again on Monday.

OK, not bad - it's on their radar and they made a commitment to continue helping you. Maybe they think it could be a software issue in which case a bit premature to exchange the hardware. I'm sure you know - stay on top of them till you get satisfaction, now that you know these results are unacceptable.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 10, 2019, 04:05:12 pm
L2 was intimating maybe it was something wrong with the series, hence my post. I am hoping that was just some miscommunication with NEC engineering

BTW, looked back at the lower contrast calibration I did: 250:1 same result.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: 1PhotoGuyinNM on March 13, 2019, 11:38:29 pm
I wanted to point out that I recently purchased two new PA271Q monitors and had the same issue that the OP describes.   The greyscale Delta E's were huge whereas the white point values were excellent.  I repeated the calibration process numerous times on both monitors and at different white points, luminance levels and contrast ratios, and could never get the average greyscale Delta E to be under 2 using SpectraView II. In all cases I used a Gamma Curve value of 2.2 and the Color Gamut was set to Native (Full).   The attached file shows the best greyscale result I could achieve after numerous calibration attempts.  The only way I could get a reasonable calibration was when I used DisplayCal.  I ended up returning both of the PA271Q monitors. To me this seems to be an issue with the PA271Q and/or the SpectraView II software.  It should be noted that I was using the latest version of SpectraView II (Version 1.1.39 Build 181031). I also calibrated with the previous version of 1.1.38 and got the same results.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: 1PhotoGuyinNM on March 14, 2019, 12:06:23 am
I should also mention that I used the MDSVSENSOR3 that came with the PA271Q for all my calibration attempts using the SpectraView II software.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 14, 2019, 07:52:33 am
It's a weird software bug, that's occurs randomly in some PA271Qs for no obvious reason. It will be fixed soon.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 14, 2019, 10:03:18 am
It's a weird software bug, that's occurs randomly in some PA271Qs for no obvious reason. It will be fixed soon.

Ah, thanks. That is good to hear I reckon. That makes sense from what L2 was hinting at. They are cross shipping me a new monitor in any case, I should be getting it tomorrow. If it exhibits this issue I will just sit on it then.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: 1PhotoGuyinNM on March 14, 2019, 11:36:29 am
Hi Marcin,

Were you able to talk directly with NEC regarding the software bug?   The reason I ask is I have not seen anything from NEC regarding this issue.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 14, 2019, 11:58:10 am
My report shown earlier is from a PA271Q, Mac Mojave, custom target, no problems FWIW.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 14, 2019, 06:04:00 pm
Hi Marcin,

Were you able to talk directly with NEC regarding the software bug?   The reason I ask is I have not seen anything from NEC regarding this issue.  Thanks!

All I can say is that I managed to get rid of the issue by myself, so it seems not to really be a big problem - and AFAIK it will be addressed by NEC soon.
Title: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: dehnhaide on March 15, 2019, 01:43:16 am
All I can say is that I managed to get rid of the issue by myself, so it seems not to really be a big problem - and AFAIK it will be addressed by NEC soon.

Why not share with the others / OP the solution for the benefit of all, if there is a solution?!

Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 15, 2019, 09:59:17 am
Why not share with the others / OP the solution for the benefit of all, if there is a solution?!

Problem is that I'm not sure how I fixed it...
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on March 15, 2019, 11:39:27 am
Problem is that I'm not sure how I fixed it...

We've all been there, Marcin!
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 17, 2019, 12:33:20 am
We've all been there, Marcin!

LOL. Well I received the replacement. It is a bit better but not excellent or even great. This is at 500:1 contrast, full color gamut.

@Czornyj Hope you are right. Everything else about the monitor is fine.
Title: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: dehnhaide on March 17, 2019, 03:05:53 am
LOL. Well I received the replacement. It is a bit better but not excellent or even great. This is at 500:1 contrast, full color gamut.

@Czornyj Hope you are right. Everything else about the monitor is fine.


This is still not ok not at all ok, I would dare to say, for this type of professional monitor. Can you share the summary page as well? One question though: why 500:1 and lot leave it to the native contrast? Just curious...

Else, I have never tried calibrating it via DiplayCal but that would be an idea to test and see if smth is not wrong with the monitor internals (3D LUT) since DisplayCal can only calibrate it via graphic card LUT adjustments.

When you received your replacement have you received also a new spectrometer?! I still suspect there's an issue with the NEC's version colorimeter!
I don't know what colorimeter DigitalDog is using but I am using a EFI ES-2000 spectrophotometer. Would it be possible to rent another spectrometer to try again?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 08:59:29 am
We've all been there, Marcin!
Not all of Us.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 09:03:38 am
LOL. Well I received the replacement. It is a bit better but not excellent or even great. This is at 500:1 contrast, full color gamut.

@Czornyj Hope you are right. Everything else about the monitor is fine.
He is and to remind others of what he wrote:It's a weird software bug'
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 10:11:37 am
When you received your replacement have you received also a new spectrometer?! I still suspect there's an issue with the NEC's version colorimeter!
I don't know what colorimeter DigitalDog is using but I am using a EFI ES-2000 spectrophotometer. Would it be possible to rent another spectrometer to try again?

Itís not sensor releated - I have a couple of i1Display Pros and i1Pro2 sensors, the result was the same with all of them. Iím 1000% sure itís a software bug - thereís strange anomaly in green TRC shape after calibration that causes the above mentioned behavior. The good news is that itís ĄcurableĒ, so now we only have to wait for new firmware/SVII revision.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 17, 2019, 10:25:09 am
Itís not sensor releated - I have a couple of i1Display Pros and i1Pro2 sensors, the result was the same with all of them. Iím 1000% sure itís a software bug - thereís strange anomaly in green TRC shape after calibration that causes the above mentioned behavior. The good news is that itís ĄcurableĒ, so now we only have to wait for new firmware/SVII revision.
What versions of SpectraView are you and OP using?  I had to do a Win10 install and updated SpectraView to version 1.1.18 (I see that 1.1.19 is now available).  I don't see any problems when I calibrate my monitor (P232W) with an NEC branded colorimeter.  Is this also linked to which NEC monitor one is using?  Pretty strange behavior.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 17, 2019, 12:37:19 pm
What versions of SpectraView are you and OP using?  I had to do a Win10 install and updated SpectraView to version 1.1.18 (I see that 1.1.19 is now available).  I don't see any problems when I calibrate my monitor (P232W) with an NEC branded colorimeter.  Is this also linked to which NEC monitor one is using?  Pretty strange behavior.

You meant 1.1.38 and 1.1.39?

I am on 1.1.39. I tried 1.1.38 too. Also tried older i1 sensor with same results. Also see an anomaly in green - a larger correction.
So I will hold onto this one. and contact L2 to see what the engineers have to say.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 01:46:01 pm
What versions of SpectraView are you and OP using?  I had to do a Win10 install and updated SpectraView to version 1.1.18 (I see that 1.1.19 is now available).  I don't see any problems when I calibrate my monitor (P232W) with an NEC branded colorimeter.  Is this also linked to which NEC monitor one is using?  Pretty strange behavior.

It doesnít matter - I tested various versions on various platforms with various sensors with the very same results.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on March 17, 2019, 02:49:48 pm
Not all of Us.
You just couldn't help yourself, could you? Again.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 02:51:19 pm
You just couldn't help yourself, could you? Again.
Correcting you again, indeed.  :o
At least my posts previous to yours here were based on actual usage and experience with the product under discussion.
Or you finally got a PA271Q despite all the flickering (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=82256.msg664461#msg664461) issues you find with NECs (among other so called 'issues')?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 04:13:33 pm
I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.
I just calibrated my unit again, still results as expected (shown below).
Let's try something different. Try downloading my custom settings (target file) found here:
http://digitaldog.net/files/ARsPhotoEditing.zip
Unzip,Load in SpectraView and calibrate. How is the report?

Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 04:52:09 pm
I just calibrated my unit again, still results as expected (shown below).
Let's try something different. Try downloading my custom settings (target file) found here:
http://digitaldog.net/files/ARsPhotoEditing.zip
Unzip,Load in SpectraView and calibrate. How is the report?

It won't help, the calibration target is irrelevant, you can choose different wtpts, brightnesses, TRCs, CRs - thereís always a weird offset in gTRC that causes validation errors.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qu3pc6yeafldyks/Zrzut%20ekranu%202019-03-17%2021.51.55.png?dl=0
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on March 17, 2019, 04:52:25 pm
I just recalibrated my monitor last week and get pretty much the same results that Andrew did.  I did make an error in the software number as was pointed out by a couple of users.  I'm on ver 1.1.38
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 04:54:07 pm
It won't help, the calibration target is irrelevant, you can choose different wtpts, brightnesses, TRCs, CRs - thereís always a weird offset in gTRC that causes validation errors.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qu3pc6yeafldyks/Zrzut%20ekranu%202019-03-17%2021.51.55.png?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/qu3pc6yeafldyks/Zrzut%20ekranu%202019-03-17%2021.51.55.png?dl=0)
I was wondering if a combo of settings would make it work, as it does on this end with the latest version of the Mac software 1.1.39.
Something changed to make your copy work right?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 17, 2019, 05:07:01 pm
I just calibrated my unit again, still results as expected (shown below).
Let's try something different. Try downloading my custom settings (target file) found here:
http://digitaldog.net/files/ARsPhotoEditing.zip
Unzip,Load in SpectraView and calibrate. How is the report?

That is what I would expect to see. I calibrated with your target and here is what I get. So now we have a direct comparison to affected and non-affected monitors.

I wonder if it was some part supply change. What vintage is your monitor?

Also attached my Green curve. It is not as off as the first one, which may explain why this is a little better.



Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 05:10:03 pm
I got mine last October.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 05:42:25 pm
I was wondering if a combo of settings would make it work, as it does on this end with the latest version of the Mac software 1.1.39.
Something changed to make your copy work right?

I tried everything, and suddenly something helped. BTW - can you put an USB stick to first upper USB port on the left side, export the settings of your monitor and upload it here (the .nsvs file)?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 07:05:30 pm
The Set button doesn't seem to be working when selected. Press set to export monitor settings I see, but set doesn't do anything. I've tried all the USB ports. :(
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 07:36:48 pm
The Set button doesn't seem to be working when selected. Press set to export monitor settings I see, but set doesn't do anything. I've tried all the USB ports. :(

There's one single USB port above them all (not one of 3 USB3 blue ports on the bottom)  - when you put an USB stick it displays export/load settings automatically.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 07:41:43 pm
Here's mine:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ev4z5oo3ictlpi/pa271q_86100058TB_a_01.nsvs?dl=0
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 17, 2019, 07:42:33 pm
There's one single USB port above them all (not one of 3 USB3 blue ports on the bottom)  - when you put an USB stick it displays export/load settings automatically.
Yeah, found it after pulling the cap off. The file is zipped:


http://digitaldog.net/files/pa271q_87100388TA_a.nsvs.zip
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 17, 2019, 07:45:25 pm
Here's mine:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ev4z5oo3ictlpi/pa271q_86100058TB_a_01.nsvs?dl=0

Wish they were human readable.
Do you have yours self calibrated or using factory calibration?
What version of the firmware?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 08:00:28 pm
Wish they were human readable.
Do you have yours self calibrated or using factory calibration?
What version of the firmware?

- copy it on USB stick
- put the stick to the USB port above all ports on the left side
- load settings to the display
- calibrate the display again
- if it won't help reset the display using Multiprofiler, recalibrate
- and make factory reset from menu, recalibrate
- and update to latest FW v1.2, recealibrate
- and update SVII to 1.1.39
- and calibrate it again

At the end of the day something fixes it, I'm not sure what and how.
Here's an affected display I took off a while ago:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jtho7ij6m1rwci/Zrzut%20ekranu%202019-03-18%2000.56.45.png?dl=0
Same display after applying the above mentioned shamanic rituals (still have no idea what really helped):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvq0eu1c8lfb1wm/Zrzut%20ekranu%202019-03-18%2000.56.54.png?dl=0
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 17, 2019, 08:13:35 pm
Seems like the steps I made on the first monitor (updated to  firmware 1.2 too). And am on SVII .39 as well. But wwill give it a go later.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Czornyj on March 17, 2019, 08:24:24 pm
Seems like the steps I made on the first monitor (updated to  firmware 1.2 too). And am on SVII .39 as well. But wwill give it a go later.

Try to load our .nsvs files, and resetting it. It doesn't work all the time and it does't make sense, but eventually it may fix it.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on March 18, 2019, 01:47:40 am
Correcting you again, indeed.  :o
At least my posts previous to yours here were based on actual usage and experience with the product under discussion.
Or you finally got a PA271Q despite all the flickering (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=82256.msg664461#msg664461) issues you find with NECs (among other so called 'issues')?

Wrong again. I never found flicker issued with NECs. I asked for other people's possible experience with flicker, be it NEC or otherwise, before buying an LED/LCD monitor, remember? But of course you don't or pretend not to. Facts never stood in your way.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 18, 2019, 09:18:28 am
I just calibrated my unit again, still results as expected (shown below).
Let's try something different. Try downloading my custom settings (target file) found here:
http://digitaldog.net/files/ARsPhotoEditing.zip
Unzip,Load in SpectraView and calibrate. How is the report?

Dear Andrew,

Here comes trouble and I am puzzled! :O After updating my NEC PA271Q to the latest available 1.202 firmware I my calibration has gone bananas!
While in the past most of my calibration result where on the 0.4 to 0.6 dE(94) margins for "Average" and 1.6 to 2.4 dE(94) for "Maximum" with the biggest delta in  "Dark Values" (else the Avg was 0.23 and Max 0.45) now my dE(94) values have rocketed to 1.13 to 1.28 for Avg and 1.95 to 2.10 Max dE(94).
I was expecting the firmware update to correct the deviation caused by the "Include Dark Values" but instead the whole range of values (L* 10+) have gone awry!
I even downloaded your "ARsPhotoEditing.tgt" file for calibration and still my values are out of their normal ranges. Now the "dark values" are not an issue anymore but the "light values" have become an issue!
I am not sure if I should be happy now (with more dE(94) in all spectrum vs larger dE(94) in the darks)!?!! I'm confused!

I have attached comparisons among few past profiles and the newest one after the firmware update.


What's wrong? What to do?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 18, 2019, 09:35:43 am
Wrong again. I never found flicker issued with NECs. I asked for other people's possible experience with flicker, be it NEC or otherwise, before buying an LED/LCD monitor, remember? But of course you don't or pretend not to. Facts never stood in your way.
I remember nearly all your nonsense posts including (your text from a URL already provided):

Given the potential for problems and the relative easy fix for the P232W I still don't understand why NEC doesn't plan to upgrade that monitor with a much higher backlighting PWM.

This after people told you they DIDN'T (http://www.photo.net/digital-darkroom-forum/00c06Z) flicker! Another example of providing facts you can't accept! ;)
Indeed, you still don't understand.
You own a PA (specifically a 271Q), how's the flickering affecting you? You don't? Maybe that's why there are no facts or a lick of text from your keyboard about solving the OP's issues in this thread.  :o
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 18, 2019, 10:54:42 am
I was expecting the firmware update to correct the deviation caused by the "Include Dark Values" but instead the whole range of values (L* 10+) have gone awry!
According to the OSD, I'm running R1.001A. Never updated the firmware nor had any indication to do so.

Quote

I am not sure if I should be happy now (with more dE(94) in all spectrum vs larger dE(94) in the darks)!?!! I'm confused!
At this point I wouldn't worry too much as NEC is aware of this and unless images look poor, I'd move on for the time being until we get more information.
I was calibrating and saw the screen saver kick in (stopped it after a second) and saw in that report with one really bad spike but everything looked fine otherwise. I did recalibrate after setting the screen saver off (don't need it with this unit) and that one high dE spike it disappeared. IF the overall report in the main reporting screen is sound, I think you're good to continue until NEC figures out this software issue.
What is the firmware you're running?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 18, 2019, 01:56:42 pm
What is the firmware you're running?

I am now running v1.202... available on NEC's site. Anyway I will raise a ticket to NEC to have the problem on their radar. To me this is not ok at all. Not to mention that am not impressed at all about the quite substantial differences between two consecutive calibration.

Dear Andrew, I still have two questions for you. One might sound dumb but... here they are:
1) Why would one go for a fixed contrast ratio (like you're using 300:1) instead of going to the monitor native highest? Not to mention that almost every time I would choose "Monitor native" I would get results varying from 800:1 to 1400:1... really weird.
2) How could I test color accuracy of the SpectraView generated profile, other that by using the existing  "Validate Calibration", which I found to be pretty much useless? i1Profiler keeps telling me "No active profile" when trying to invoke the QA.

Thanks a lot.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 18, 2019, 02:07:49 pm
I am now running v1.202... available on NEC's site. Anyway I will raise a ticket to NEC to have the problem on their radar. To me this is not ok at all. Not to mention that am not impressed at all about the quite substantial differences between two consecutive calibration.

Dear Andrew, I still have two questions for you. One might sound dumb but... here they are:
1) Why would one go for a fixed contrast ratio (like you're using 300:1) instead of going to the monitor native highest? Not to mention that almost every time I would choose "Monitor native" I would get results varying from 800:1 to 1400:1... really weird.
2) How could I test color accuracy of the SpectraView generated profile, other that by using the existing  "Validate Calibration", which I found to be pretty much useless? i1Profiler keeps telling me "No active profile" when trying to invoke the QA.

Thanks a lot.


1. To better match the contrast ratio of a print when calibrating the display for a specific print to display match. See:
http://blog.xritephoto.com/2011/07/x-rite-i1display-pro-advanced-features-contrast-ratio-with-coloratti-andrew-rodney/
SpectraView does this of course and better, allows you to build as many targets for specific uses as you desire.
2. The validation IMHO is only useful to determine when the process doesn't work correctly and you want numbers to back it up. It isn't useful in gauging overall accuracy for a number of reasons. Primarily the issue is you're using the same software and more importantly the same instrument, not a higher grade reference device, to gauge accuracy.Lets say I measure my foot with a home depot wooden ruler and find it's 10.7 inches. Clearly my foot isn't an adequate measuring device compared to that 1 foot wooden ruler. But how accurate is that ruler? It too should be of sufficient accuracy for the task. There are devices like a 50 cent wooden ruler that may be accurate to +/- 1/10 of an inch. For measuring a 100 foot fence, that may be all that's needed in terms of measurement accuracy. For measuring a component that will be used on a nuclear power plant 1/10000 of an inch may just be adequate enough for the specifications of the job. But my 10.7 foot clearly isn't accurate. So when we talk accuracy, we need to take into account the instrument or method of measuring the accuracy. And how accurate we need the results of the measurement to the reference. With dE, 1 or less is invisible. We are using the same instrument to evaluate the display accuracy and that's not worthless but not ideal either.
What is useful is trending where we use the same instrument and number of color patches over time, multiple times. Now we can see consistently in the calibration. And we can get a good idea how often we need to calibrate the display due to the dE of drift over time.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on March 18, 2019, 02:36:41 pm

1. To better match the contrast ratio of a print when calibrating the display for a specific print to display match. See:
http://blog.xritephoto.com/2011/07/x-rite-i1display-pro-advanced-features-contrast-ratio-with-coloratti-andrew-rodney/
SpectraView does this of course and better, allows you to build as many targets for specific uses as you desire.
Wow, that was quick... and very informative! ;) Thanks for the tip.

2. The validation IMHO is only useful to determine when the process doesn't work correctly and you want numbers to back it up. It isn't useful in gauging overall accuracy for a number of reasons. Primarily the issue is you're using the same software and more importantly the same instrument, not a higher grade reference device, to gauge accuracy.Lets say I measure my foot with a home depot wooden ruler and find it's 10.7 inches. Clearly my foot isn't an adequate measuring device compared to that 1 foot wooden ruler. But how accurate is that ruler? It too should be of sufficient accuracy for the task. There are devices like a 50 cent wooden ruler that may be accurate to +/- 1/10 of an inch. For measuring a 100 foot fence, that may be all that's needed in terms of measurement accuracy. For measuring a component that will be used on a nuclear power plant 1/10000 of an inch may just be adequate enough for the specifications of the job. But my 10.7 foot clearly isn't accurate. So when we talk accuracy, we need to take into account the instrument or method of measuring the accuracy. And how accurate we need the results of the measurement to the reference. With dE, 1 or less is invisible. We are using the same instrument to evaluate the display accuracy and that's not worthless but not ideal either.
What is useful is trending where we use the same instrument and number of color patches over time, multiple times. Now we can see consistently in the calibration. And we can get a good idea how often we need to calibrate the display due to the dE of drift over time.
I might be stubborn in my belief that once the NEC calibration results can be so "diverse" there should also be another "impartial" way of checking the actual results. Of course, visually is difficult to assess their quality hence my worries.
Not quite comfortable as of now with the results and the shifts... :(
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on March 18, 2019, 02:38:21 pm
Wow, that was quick... and very informative! ;) Thanks for the tip.
I might be stubborn in my belief that once the NEC calibration results can be so "diverse" there should also be another "impartial" way of checking the actual results.
Well if the goal is calibration to match a print soft proofing, if you see a good match, you're set!  ;)
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on March 25, 2019, 12:28:45 pm
Apparently there is no fix at this time so I am to return to retailer  :(

Any suggestions for a monitor?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Christopher on April 15, 2019, 10:18:31 am
Similar Problem. Not really happy with my new NEC PA271q... First NEC after a few Eizos and never had such a bad calibration. All my displays before that were much closer to Rodney's NEC delta.

I tried a few things, but couldn't improve much.

First Image shows, calibration before Firmware and SpectraView update.

Second shows calibration to Rodney's target. Much better, but still not close to his NEC.

Last one is my target again, also better, but still not great.

Perhaps I'm expecting to much, but the PA271q got so great reviews, so I'm surprised about it's perfromance.

Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: perbjesse on April 19, 2019, 03:22:43 pm
I was on the cusp of getting a PA271q over an Eizo monitor, and it looks like I should either not do it or hold out to see if there is a solution. I'd love to save some money, but both monitors are in a price range where I want predictable results without fiddling. If this is not a glitch, I guess I will be paying some more for an Eizo.

I'll keep monitoring this thread for a while to see if there is a systematic fix from NEC, but if not I guess that is it.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 20, 2019, 04:02:50 pm
I was on the cusp of getting a PA271q over an Eizo monitor, and it looks like I should either not do it or hold out to see if there is a solution. I'd love to save some money, but both monitors are in a price range where I want predictable results without fiddling. If this is not a glitch, I guess I will be paying some more for an Eizo.

I'll keep monitoring this thread for a while to see if there is a systematic fix from NEC, but if not I guess that is it.

I was told there would be no resolution in the immediate future, and that it was a rare situation (which makes no sense). Hope that is wrong.

I am looking at Eizo too. My two issues there are that I have seen some reports of not so stellar support and their monitors of the same size with hardware LUT and sensor are in the $2500  range. I don't want to pay that much and not have good support. NEC support seems good.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2019, 04:16:12 pm
I was told there would be no resolution in the immediate future, and that it was a rare situation (which makes no sense). Hope that is wrong.

I am looking at Eizo too. My two issues there are that I have seen some reports of not so stellar support and their monitors of the same size with hardware LUT and sensor are in the $2500  range. I don't want to pay that much and not have good support. NEC support seems good.
Not sure how rare it is, happily mine is fine and I suspect if you got one that isn't correct, NEC would replace under warranty.
Next, there is the possibility the Eizo using the same panel would suffer the same issues....
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 20, 2019, 05:21:30 pm
Not sure how rare it is, happily mine is fine and I suspect if you got one that isn't correct, NEC would replace under warranty.
Next, there is the possibility the Eizo using the same panel would suffer the same issues....

As I stated in this thread, they did replace the monitor under warranty and it was marginally better, so I got a full refund since there appears to be no fix on the horizon.
As to my comment about rare, I got two in a row, and they should have two to investigate.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2019, 05:22:51 pm
As I stated in this thread, they did replace the monitor under warranty and it was marginally better, so I got a full refund since there appears to be no fix on the horizon.
As to my comment about rare, I got two in a row, and they should have two to investigate.
I'd push them to keep sending them until you get one that behaves like mine. Maybe mine is the rare one but all I can tell you is what I see in my report which is what is expected.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 20, 2019, 05:46:52 pm
I'd push them to keep sending them until you get one that behaves like mine. Maybe mine is the rare one but all I can tell you is what I see in my report which is what is expected.

Honestly, it is not worth that kind of hassle for me - I value my time.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2019, 05:51:59 pm
Honestly, it is not worth that kind of hassle for me - I value my time.
So you end up with what?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 20, 2019, 08:10:52 pm
So you end up with what?

I see you are the kind of person who has to tell other people how they should think and act and who has to have the last word. Well what I have is my current NEC and I will  probably have an Eizo as a replacement in the near future and I won't have wasted any more days of my time

And FWIW,  NEC suggested the second replacement monitor would probably not resolve the issue, and it did not, so there is more here going on than you know. I also  expect you have an earlier one or was very lucky.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 20, 2019, 08:18:18 pm
I see you are the kind of person who has to tell other people how they should think and act and who has to have the last word.
Wrong. Do whatever you want. Point is, facts are, there are PA271q's that run fine. You can either decide to get one, as owed to you or go elsewhere. I could care less. Get an Eizo, don't be shocked if you find the same issues.
Quote
NEC suggested the second replacement monitor would probably not resolve the issue, and it did not, so there is more here going on than you know.
Right, I'm the only PA271Q owner who's display as shown operates (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=129474.msg1099343#msg1099343) as it should.  :P
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 21, 2019, 12:45:06 pm
I see you are the kind of person who has to tell other people how they should think and act and who has to have the last word. Well what I have is my current NEC and I will  probably have an Eizo as a replacement in the near future and I won't have wasted any more days of my time

And FWIW,  NEC suggested the second replacement monitor would probably not resolve the issue, and it did not, so there is more here going on than you know. I also  expect you have an earlier one or was very lucky.

You hit the nail on the head!
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2019, 12:53:06 pm
You hit the nail on the head!
If only you used yours.... :P
As you once did earlier:

A topic you are watching has been removed by Frans Waterlander.

Regards,
The Luminous Landscape Forum Team.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 21, 2019, 02:06:54 pm
who has to have the last word.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2019, 02:10:38 pm
who has to have the last word.
Who had to remove all his silly posts due to embarrassment?
EDIT: I'm not one to strip away mistakes like you, I just fix em.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 21, 2019, 02:42:59 pm
No embracement here. I removed those threads because I got sick and tired of the hostile replies by certain people, and you know  who you are.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2019, 02:48:07 pm
No embracement here. I removed those threads because I got sick and tired of the hostile replies by certain people, and you know  who you are.
Good move on your part as so few where taking you seriously, including me of course. Hostile is your code for being corrected or being pushed back for never accepting an answer you didn't predetermine you wanted to hear that were wrong. But then there's this history here and over on PhotoNet where posts you didn't create and can't delete still exist to illustrate this posting agenda.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Frans Waterlander on April 21, 2019, 02:49:16 pm
Blah, blah, blah...
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: vikcious on April 21, 2019, 02:51:06 pm
I suppose this exchange couldn't have been a private one for the sake of keeping this thread focused on the real issue and clean of testosterone, could it?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2019, 02:56:14 pm
I suppose this exchange couldn't have been a private one for the sake of keeping this thread focused on the real issue and clean of testosterone, could it?
Indeed, Franz is again just hijacking a thread about a product he's got zero experience with. Let's do keep on topic and not feed trolls.
NEC is aware of the issues. I've spoken with the US product manager and they are working on why some panels exhibit this behavior but again, not all do. So anyone who sees the same issues should contact NEC and get the unit replaced. Now if someone does this more than once and doesn't wish to continue until they receive satisfaction, they have to do what they feel is necessary above and beyond accepting units until they work as they should.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 21, 2019, 03:22:11 pm
Indeed, Franz is again just hijacking a thread about a product he's got zero experience with. Let's do keep on topic and not feed trolls.
NEC is aware of the issues. I've spoken with the US product manager and they are working on why some panels exhibit this behavior but again, not all do. So anyone who sees the same issues should contact NEC and get the unit replaced. Now if someone does this more than once and doesn't wish to continue until they receive satisfaction, they have to do what they feel is necessary above and beyond accepting units until they work as they should.

Man what a boor. You have already confirmed my initial impression, so I am sure you will have to reply to this, but you are on my blocked user list now, so I will not see it.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 21, 2019, 03:26:36 pm
Man what a boor. You have already confirmed my initial impression, so I am sure you will have to reply to this, but you are on my blocked user list now, so I will not see it.
But I answered your question (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=129474.msg1099343#msg1099343) awhile ago:

Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q? I have tried everything under the sun and the results are still the same. delta-E of white point is fine.
You didn't find that boring but sure, block: ignorance is said to be bliss: Enjoy.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: perbjesse on April 22, 2019, 04:34:05 pm
So here is a question: Is this problem that a screen must manifest straight out of the box, or is it the case that the screen may be fine initially but develop this problem over time?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: geneo on April 22, 2019, 05:36:08 pm
So here is a question: Is this problem that a screen must manifest straight out of the box, or is it the case that the screen may be fine initially but develop this problem over time?

From my experience and what I could glean from support, Straight out of the box or you are good.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 22, 2019, 05:51:03 pm
So here is a question: Is this problem that a screen must manifest straight out of the box, or is it the case that the screen may be fine initially but develop this problem over time?
Straight away, it's an issue with the panel.
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: Christopher on April 23, 2019, 08:40:35 am
Rodney in your honest opinion, what do you think of mine? Would you accept it as "good enough" or not?
Title: Re: Would you find this delta-E acceptable on a new PA271q?
Post by: digitaldog on April 23, 2019, 08:54:57 am
Rodney in your honest opinion, what do you think of mine? Would you accept it as "good enough" or not?
To be honest, I don't think that report is all that critical.