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Author Topic: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?  (Read 2959 times)

rasworth

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Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« on: March 03, 2019, 05:57:38 pm »

I've been reading the interesting threads, in his forum and the printer forum, about achieving high quality profiles.  In my world I an limited by knowledge, software and equipment to cranking out profiles with auto generated patterns and i1Profiler and a couple of i1Pros.  So here's the question - using around 1000 patches, auto generated, are the profile neutral rendering curves shown in ColorThink Pro a good indicator as to the printer linearity, and therefore to the need or not for more patches?

I have attached two sets of neutral rendering curves, the first from a recent 905 patch profile for semi-gloss paper on my Pro 100, and another one pulled out of the archives for an Epson 2200.  I'm happy with the results for the Pro 100, and have long since forgotten the 1100 patch Epson profile results.  Are the curves a valid indicator as to linearity, or by the time one views them in ColorThink have they been smoothed to the point of covering up the actual printer characteristics?

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2019, 06:43:28 pm »

Richard, there was a very interesting and useful post in this Forum by Ethan Hansen some time back where he presented a chart indicating the characteristics and numbers of patches in a patch set that were particularly conducive to good results for the grayscale. You can generate in i1Profiler the patch sets using the patch quantities that Ethan posted there. ColorThink Pro has good instruction on what their curves mean here: ColorWiki.

You can test the "limearity" of the grayscale by creating a set of neutral patches representing the grayscale, printing them in Absolute Colorimetric and measuring them to see how faithfully the printer reproduces the file values. Have a look at my article on this website Stress Testing the Printer Workflow. This approach I think provides a useful indicator of whether a particular paper/profile combination will provide approximately what the file values indicate you should get.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 07:31:03 pm »

Mark,

Thanks, I understand that the real proof would come from print measurements.  I was curious to know if the neutral rendering curves were an indicator of printer linearity.

I printed out Ethan's chart long ago, often use the 1215 set because it is one of the "magic" numbers and it fits neatly on 3 letter size sheets with i1Pro size patches.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2019, 08:08:25 pm »

Mark,

Thanks, I understand that the real proof would come from print measurements.  I was curious to know if the neutral rendering curves were an indicator of printer linearity.

I printed out Ethan's chart long ago, often use the 1215 set because it is one of the "magic" numbers and it fits neatly on 3 letter size sheets with i1Pro size patches.

Richard Southworth

I don't believe that is what the neutral rendering curves in CTP are meant to be. Have a look at the recent thread containing the discussion between Andrew Rodney and several of us about the distinction between printer linearity and what profiles are meant to do.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 08:27:37 pm by Mark D Segal »
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 09:57:20 am »

Ok, what do the neutral rendering curves indicate?  My understanding is the graph is constructed with neutrals (referenced to the paper white point?) luminosity on the x axis, 0 - 100.  A vertical line from any point on the x axis intersects the r-g-b curves, giving a rgb triplet that is the raw input necessary to create the neutral.

My assumption was that straighter rgb curves implied a more linear relationship between each channel and its resulting color.  I realize this is not the whole story, but I thought it was one indicator of printer "behavior".

Richard Southworth

Added by edit - color wiki reference for ColorThink Pro - http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/ColorThink_Pro_-_Profile_Inspector_and_Renamer#Neutral_Rendering_Curves
Description of what it is, but not much there on what to do with it.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 12:41:11 pm by rasworth »
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Doug Gray

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 01:10:03 pm »

Ok, what do the neutral rendering curves indicate?  My understanding is the graph is constructed with neutrals (referenced to the paper white point?) luminosity on the x axis, 0 - 100.  A vertical line from any point on the x axis intersects the r-g-b curves, giving a rgb triplet that is the raw input necessary to create the neutral.

That's a correct interpretation.
Quote


My assumption was that straighter rgb curves implied a more linear relationship between each channel and its resulting color.  I realize this is not the whole story, but I thought it was one indicator of printer "behavior".

It is, but the most  important factor is how smooth the trajectory is. They can vary significantly but, as long as they are smooth, a profile will do a good job correcting for it. The "neutral" rgb curves shown in your example would be tracked very well by a profile. Even if the profile did not have tons of patches. The thing that matters for color managed printing with a profile is smoothness (the second derivative of the curve). How linear it is from end to end is nearly irrelevant.

That said, modern printers are smoother and often more linear too. To a degree that surprises me. For instance I recently have explored various patch configurations including some below 100 patch counts for profiling. The Pro1000 with matte paper can make such profiles with an average dE00 below .8. This isn't possible with my older Epson 9800 which requires more patches for the same accuracy even though the a* and b* excursions are less than those of the Pro1000. While lower, they are "lumpier" and improving this area is the biggest change seen on modern printers.

Quote


Richard Southworth

Added by edit - color wiki reference for ColorThink Pro - http://www.colorwiki.com/wiki/ColorThink_Pro_-_Profile_Inspector_and_Renamer#Neutral_Rendering_Curves
Description of what it is, but not much there on what to do with it.
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 01:55:15 pm »

Doug, thanks for the detailed reply.

At less than a ton of patches, say around the 1000 mark, will "lumpiness" show up, or will interpolation tend to smooth out the variations?  Once I'm familiar with a particular printer the curves are an indicator of major profile problems, but I haven't though much about their implications.

The Epson 2200 was infamous for its non-profiled behavior, but I would still consider the curves in its profile to be fairly smooth, even though they wander around a good bit.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 02:11:28 pm »

...............

My assumption was that straighter rgb curves implied a more linear relationship between each channel and its resulting color.  I realize this is not the whole story, but I thought it was one indicator of printer "behavior".

............


I think the neutral rendering curves reflect printer behaviour based on this statement: "The Curves indicate what the profile needs to do, all along the spectrum of white to black, in order to produce neutral gray."

And by corollary, my interpretation, tell me if you think I'm incorrect here, the profile is helping to correct for non-neutral native behaviour of the printer. To me that means if the printer were perfectly linear in its rendition of neutral gray from paper white to maximum black absent profiling, those curves would converge along a linear path from paper white to maximum black.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 02:55:46 pm »

Mark,
I believe the statement would be if the printer/paper combination were perfectly linear...

Even with the best behaved printer the curves are going to separate different amounts based upon the paper, I think.  The curves always converge at r=g=b=255 for relative intent, i.e. at the paper white point, the zero ink condition.

It's interesting to view the curves for the different intents, and try to reconcile the results.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 03:02:38 pm »

Mark,
I believe the statement would be if the printer/paper combination were perfectly linear...

Even with the best behaved printer the curves are going to separate different amounts based upon the paper, I think.  The curves always converge at r=g=b=255 for relative intent, i.e. at the paper white point, the zero ink condition.

It's interesting to view the curves for the different intents, and try to reconcile the results.

Richard Southworth

Yes, the paper likely plays a role.

OK on convergence at 255, but I think the more important point for the curves is how they behave as they depart from RGB=255 and proceed down the scale.

Not sure how useful it would be to try reconciling results between rendering intents - not clear to me what's to reconcile and what the point of it would be. Could you explain?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 03:07:39 pm »


It's interesting to view the curves for the different intents, and try to reconcile the results.

Richard Southworth

The cuves, using Rel. Col. or Perceptual always converge at 255,255,255 to paper white. That is, nothing is printed there. Perceptual tracking along neutrals is not specified. The I1Profiler defaults converge neutrals above L50 but Perc. varies depending on various sliders.

Color managed Rel. Col. curves scale to paper white as L*==100 but not paper black. It follows the printable gamut down to the paper black point such that the chromaticity is the same CIE xy as paper white. Beyond paper black is not defined. Sometimes there can be a color shift. Seems most profile generation maps colors below the black point to the closed dE76 which may shift the xy chromaticity.
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 03:22:34 pm »

Mark,
My comment about reconciling rendering intents was not pertinent to the thread, I had just thought thru the curve offset for absolute intent.

Doug,
I went back and did my "homework", read thru your thread on optimal profile patch sets.  What's the best way to try out one of your patch sets in i1Profiler without buying/learning MATLAB?

Thanks,
Richard Southworth
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Doug Gray

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 03:48:46 pm »

Mark,
My comment about reconciling rendering intents was not pertinent to the thread, I had just thought thru the curve offset for absolute intent.

Doug,
I went back and did my "homework", read thru your thread on optimal profile patch sets.  What's the best way to try out one of your patch sets in i1Profiler without buying/learning MATLAB?

Thanks,
Richard Southworth

Duh! I should have done this long ago. I have scripts that crank them out. I'll make a full range of sets from 91 patches to 14859 patches, which is an outer grid size of N=4 to N=20. I'll also add 35 more RGB neutrals which fills out the maximum AtoB1 spacing I1Profiler uses. I'll post them all as zipped RGB CGATs files which can be loaded directly by I1Profiler. Give me a few minutes.

Done. See attached zip file.


I've added the MATLAB script that generated the files here. This is the whole thing except for the function that makes the CGATs file from the RGB values.

Update:
Added the same patch set but this one is not randomized. Some may find it more useful. I prefer randomized patch sets.

% MakePackedCgats

for N=4:20
    step=255/(N-1);
    rgb0=CreateGrid(N,0);   % Outer Grid
    rgb1=CreateGrid(N,1);   % Inner grid
    rgbn=[(1:35)' (1:35)' (1:35)']*255/35;
    rgb=[rgb0;step/2+rgb1; rgbn]; % combine Outer and inner grids to create packed grid
    rng(1);
    n=length(rgb);
    rgbr=sortrows([rgb rand(n,1) (1:n)'],4);
    MakeCgatsRGB(round(rgbr(:,1:3)), sprintf('Packed Target N=%d and N-1=%d with Neutrals.txt', N,N-1));
end
   
       
function [g] = CreateGrid(N, inner)
r=(255/(N-1))*(0:N-1)';
if inner
    N=N-1;
end
g=[];
for i = 1:N
    for ii = 1:N
        for iii = 1:N
            g=[g;[r(i) r(ii) r(iii)]];
        end
    end
end
end
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:14:15 am by Doug Gray »
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dehnhaide

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 04:15:30 pm »

Duh! I should have done this long ago. I have scripts that crank them out. I'll make a full range of sets from 91 patches to 14859 patches, which is an outer grid size of N=4 to N=20. I'll also add 35 more RGB neutrals which fills out the maximum AtoB1 spacing I1Profiler uses. I'll post them all as zipped RGB CGATs files which can be loaded directly by I1Profiler. Give me a few minutes.

Done. See attached zip file.

Dear Doug, thanks a lot for your generosity in sharing these. You've brought a bit more wisdom to the land of mere mortals ... dealing with printer profiling chores!

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 04:25:54 pm »

Richard, understood.

Doug - looking forward to that, and +1 - thanks for the generosity.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2019, 04:28:36 pm »

Doug,
Thank you, now to use up some paper!
Richard Southworth
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Doug Gray

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2019, 05:15:27 pm »

As a side note. The second from largest file (N=19), is rather special. The points coincide exactly (aside from rounding) with the AtoB1 3DLUT grid I1Profiler creates with max quality profiles. It might be the best bet for anyone going really large.

OTOH, it's 12691 + neutrals!

The N=10 set also aligns with the 3DLUT. It's only 1729+neutrals skipping every other lut point.
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rasworth

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 05:58:35 pm »

I've hijacked my own thread, probably anything having to do with using Doug's patch sets in i1Profiler should go to his original thread or a new one - Doug, which would you prefer?

I sent an email to tech support at Chromix asking for their input on neutral rendering curves.  Pat Herold quickly replied, with what is probably a good summary of the curves usage:

 "Keep in mind that this is showing you the neutral rendering behavior and does not show you what the rest of the gamut is doing. However, often times if the profile is doing a lot of work, it shows up in the neutrals."

I'll assume that goodness lies in the direction of the profile doing less work.  He also pointed out that within ColorThink Pro are other tools that assist in determining device linearity.  Click on the Beanie symbol to invoke the ColorSmarts Guide, then drill down per the attached image.

Richard Southworth
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2019, 06:22:08 pm »

Thanks Richard.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Neutral rendering curves indication of printer linearity?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2019, 06:23:58 pm »

As a side note. The second from largest file (N=19), is rather special. The points coincide exactly (aside from rounding) with the AtoB1 3DLUT grid I1Profiler creates with max quality profiles. It might be the best bet for anyone going really large.

OTOH, it's 12691 + neutrals!

The N=10 set also aligns with the 3DLUT. It's only 1729+neutrals skipping every other lut point.

I'm not too keen on reading more than 4 US Letter sie pages of 8x8 patches, such as the 2371 which fits nicely. Which of your sets would fill that bill, or less and you would recommend as high quality?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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