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Author Topic: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"  (Read 5150 times)

billbane

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Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« on: February 12, 2019, 05:04:09 pm »

Anybody tried this?

So far, I have only seen something between "no change" and minor degradation via loss of resolution/muddying.

Is it possible that this is just for Fuji xtrans folks, at least as of now?
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rasworth

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 05:24:37 pm »

There are several articles posted explaining, this one does a good job:

https://laurashoe.com/2019/02/12/enhance-raw-file-details-in-lightroom-classic-cc-and-lightroom-cc/?fbclid=IwAR2w0YBsNi0R7ymp2NqjtyMfBCuTCKfWXyhcV-I963QL59V8K6EEbbmaY0I

My experience with Panasonic cameras on very few images has been no change.

Richard Southworth
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:29:27 pm by rasworth »
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 05:33:22 pm »

Enhanced Detail will range for doing absolutely nothing visually to producing in best case (according to internal Adobe testing with Siemens Star resolution charts) 30% increase of resolution (NOT increase of pixels!). There is of course a before and after preview and the ideal zoom ratio to examine whether it's worthwhile converting the data to a linear DNG.YMMV.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

billbane

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 10:19:38 pm »

Have now tried Nikon D850 and D90 DNG and NEF. In each case, take to Photoshop, as two layers, setting top one to "difference".

Photoshop shows no difference.

I gotta be missing something.
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billbane

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 10:27:24 pm »

Should have mentioned that I extracted the respective two green channels and there was no diference between them either using Photoshop "difference" blend mode.

Something wrong with me or Adobe.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 10:47:51 pm »

Have now tried Nikon D850 and D90 DNG and NEF. In each case, take to Photoshop, as two layers, setting top one to "difference".

Photoshop shows no difference.

I gotta be missing something.
A better way:
http://digitaldog.net/files/Apply_Image.pdf
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

nirpat89

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 11:27:17 pm »

Have now tried Nikon D850 and D90 DNG and NEF. In each case, take to Photoshop, as two layers, setting top one to "difference".

Photoshop shows no difference.

I gotta be missing something.

"AI" is saying you don't need sharpening... :)
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peterwgallagher

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 03:09:38 am »

Tested on a hand-held OLY OMD EM1-Mk2 shot of a mediaeval retable (altar piece). Shot with an OLY 12-100 f4 lens @18mm, ISO6400. Lots of intricate detail in the carvings, a little bit noisy but acceptable and sharpish. 21mb after processing in LR.

After 2 minutes of additional processing, the "Enhanced" DNG is 108mb (!) and not an iota of visible difference even when pixel-peeping.

I wish I'd known at the time I shot this what you already know: that if I'd taken say 16 images on a high-sequential shutter setting and merged them in P'shop using 'mean' layer blending, I would have had a much less noisy image (& with much more detail if I'd avoided movement).
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Pictus

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2019, 11:24:54 am »

Good to have better edges, less moiré and more small details…
Some examples where it made a difference here, here and here. (Animated GIF)

RAW files used:
https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D700/D700hSLI00100.NEF.HTM
http://download.dpreview.com/fujifilm_xpro1/DSCF2008new.RAF.zip
https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/sony-a7r/AA7RhSLI00050NR0.ARW.HTM
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 12:05:20 pm »

After 2 minutes of additional processing, the "Enhanced" DNG is 108mb (!) and not an iota of visible difference even when pixel-peeping.
That's WHY there's a very quick (at least for me) preview so you can decide or not to move forward on an image by image basis. And yeah, it's a lot larger; it's linear RGB data now. Nothing new in that respect.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

billbane

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2019, 05:17:54 pm »

Pictus,

Thanks for the 3 different test cases with 3 different cameras. I thought the changes were very subtle, except the N700 where the color repair was noticeable.

I am hoping they have bigger plans for this since as of now it looks very niche oriented. Their placement in their menu structure suggests something with substantial and general applicability.

Based on your trials, can you formulate the balance of the statement, "I would consider using Adobe's enhance details...."?
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2019, 05:29:28 pm »

Pictus,

Thanks for the 3 different test cases with 3 different cameras. I thought the changes were very subtle, except the N700 where the color repair was noticeable.

I am hoping they have bigger plans for this since as of now it looks very niche oriented. Their placement in their menu structure suggests something with substantial and general applicability.

Adobe DOES have bigger plans for this.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

photodan19

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 05:33:39 pm »

I have found  that the new Lightroom Classic Enhanced Details function, via my Win 10 Pro v1809 64bit, Intel Core i7-4790 @3.60Ghz, 12 GB RAM PC,  took 2 minutes 45 seconds for LR to create the Enhanced version of a raw photo taken with a Fuji GFX 50R and GF 45mm lens at f5.6. The photo has a significant amount of moire in distant fences and foliage.  The Enhanced version has significantly reduced moire with much of it eliminated entirely.

For images with significant moire the Enhanced Details function will be of significant benefit to me  because the alternative, using the moire brush to eliminate pervasive moire in an image,  is very tedious and will often result in making that raw image very slow to load and to work on.

Here are some screen shot comparisons with the raw on the left and the enhanced version (DNG) on the right of each comparison screen shot.  The view is 4:1 in LR to make seeing the differences easier.

Dan
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 05:36:41 pm by photodan19 »
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Pictus

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2019, 07:35:18 pm »

Pictus,

Thanks for the 3 different test cases with 3 different cameras. I thought the changes were very subtle, except the N700 where the color repair was noticeable.

I am hoping they have bigger plans for this since as of now it looks very niche oriented. Their placement in their menu structure suggests something with substantial and general applicability.

Based on your trials, can you formulate the balance of the statement, "I would consider using Adobe's enhance details...."?

You are welcome.
As already mentioned, it is excellent for moiré, check
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62299391
As a pixel peeper I always will use...  :)
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2019, 08:13:15 pm »

... Win 10 Pro v1809 64bit, Intel Core i7-4790 @3.60Ghz, 12 GB RAM PC,  took 2 minutes 45 seconds for LR to create the Enhanced version of a raw photo taken with a Fuji GFX 50R and GF 45mm lens at f5.6.

Note that the most important component for the "Enhanced Detail" function is the graphics card / GPU. Total RAM and processor are less important

Pictus

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2019, 09:24:32 pm »

I would like to see a GPU benchmark for "Enhanced Detail".
The new AMD Radeon VII is very good for compute
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13923/the-amd-radeon-vii-review/15
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2019, 10:50:17 pm »

And why the file size increase?

I do understand that the linear gamma RGB data addition to the DNG container requires more space, but why the increase in the first place?

Why not an improved (if any) version of a better Raw conversion?

Cheers,
Bart
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2019, 11:12:07 pm »

And why the file size increase?

I do understand that the linear gamma RGB data addition to the DNG container requires more space, but why the increase in the first place?

Why not an improved (if any) version of a better Raw conversion?

Cheers,
Bart

It produces a demosaiced RGGB raw file (yes, 4 channels), which in the typical case increases the size by 4x (now for every pixel you have RGGB values)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2019, 11:19:49 pm »

It produces a demosaiced RGGB raw file (yes, 4 channels), which in the typical case increases the size by 4x (now for every pixel you have RGGB values)

Hi Frank,

I understand that part, but why not improve the Raw conversion itself, instead of storing a post-processed Rawish version of it (as if it where Raw, which it apparently isn't)? Wouldn't an output option make more sense?

Cheers,
Bart
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2019, 01:20:15 am »

why not improve the Raw conversion itself, instead of storing a post-processed Rawish version of it (as if it where Raw, which it apparently isn't)? Wouldn't an output option make more sense?

Cheers,
Bart


Bart,

I don’t know enough to tell if what enhance details is doing can be achieved with an improved raw conversion, maybe it can.

However, besides the discussion if the enhanced DNG is raw or not, it is in a early stage of the processing pipeline. It is not color space encoded, which means you can apply a dcp profile and you can apply (or copy) any other adjustment as if it were an original raw file. None of this can be done with a rendered (output) file.
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