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Author Topic: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"  (Read 5229 times)

kirkt

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2019, 06:36:06 pm »

What this tells you is there IS a difference and where in the image, and as the article provided states, when using the process described: Pixels that aren’t level 128 gray are different by the amount they depart from 128 gray.

Which is why it would be a really nice feature to have in the preview.  I'm glad we agree.

kirk
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2019, 06:41:15 pm »

Which is why it would be a really nice feature to have in the preview.  I'm glad we agree.

kirk
What preview? The one in LR? Seems overkill. If you'd see a useful visual improvement in the ED preview, don't convert.
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Andrew Rodney
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Dave Rosser

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2019, 11:57:10 am »

Phase One did this already, years ago, using data from the Phase One P45+ and Phase One Achromatic (same sensor, optical path etc, just with and without RGB filter on the pixel wells). It's one of the ways they made large improvements to the per-pixel quality of the Capture One raw processing algorithms; no additional step of processing required.

From some initial testing of LR's Enhance Details tool...

Detail Enhancement: Meh. Not much improvement, and where there is improvement it's only because LR's starting point is pretty mediocre. In this regard Adobe has added a convoluted step to their workflow that gets their image quality closer (but still, to my eye, not as good as) C1's native raw processing algorithms. This is true of absolute detail and fine lines, but it's even more true of the overall feel of the detail, which feels more organic and natural to me in C1 (again, without the need for a separate processing step).

Color Moire: Meh. The effect is that of locally blurring the color. If an area moire'd with a bias toward red then Enhance Details reduces the speckling, but not the underlying bias. So things are still randomly red or blue or green tinted that should be neutral. This can save time vs manually retouching for a quick-dirty use but for any sort of final use you'd still often need to manually retouch the color.

Luminance Moire: Impressive! In some cases subject matter that was rife with moire is cleaned up entirely. In other cases the moire is still there, but with a slightly tidier look. In some cases the moire is not improved at all. Overall that's very impressive.

Our experience is that, as you pass ~30-50mp into higher resolution sensors (e.g. 80mp, 100mp, 150mp), the chance of moire falls through the floor (still technically can happen, but far more rarely). But since most of the world is still shooting cameras in the 10-50mp range and likely will be for many years to come, this improvement in ACR is very welcome and will be broadly useful. 

Hopefully as computing power improves and the programming/frameworks behind this tool improve the effect can just be folded into the normal processing chain.

Bias Alert: I'm an admitted C1 fanboy and must be considered biased as my company sells P1 gear.
I have been experimenting with the tool via Capture One.
1. Open With - Photoshop
2. Photoshop opens with the picture open in Camera Raw
3. Apply Enhance detail to the picture (before/after shows an improvement)
4. Click done
5. If you are in session mode the enhance DNG shows up in Capture One straight away, if in catalogue mode you have to import it.
I then compare the enhanced DNG and original RAW in Capture One and detail wise they are identical.
I am puzzled then I read that one of the reasons the enhance DNG is so big is that the original RAW is embedded in the Enhanced DNG.  I have a feeling that Capture One is reading the original RAW (.RAF and .NEF in my case) file and not the linear etc etc DNG created by the tool.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2019, 12:13:45 pm »

I am puzzled then I read that one of the reasons the enhance DNG is so big is that the original RAW is embedded in the Enhanced DNG. 
AFAIK, not the original proprietary raw. In LR, you end up with the original and a new DNG named Enhanced. That new DNG has a Linear DNG without the enhancement and the linear DNG with the enhancement. LR/ACR understand the enhanced version and other products, like C1 can (if it's properly supporting DNG (?)) showing you the linear DNG without enhancement. That's why the size is so much larger.
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Andrew Rodney
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2019, 01:21:45 pm »

I have a feeling that Capture One is reading the original RAW (.RAF and .NEF in my case) file and not the linear etc etc DNG created by the tool.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Hi Dave,

AFAIK that is correct. The DNG is no longer a pure Raw file as defined in the Published Standard, it is in a proprietary Adobe format that for the moment is probably only decodable with recent Adobe applications. It, therefore, defaults to the unenhanced version. That might also mean that it is unreadable for older versions of Lightroom and ACR.

Cheers,
Bart
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Dave Rosser

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2019, 02:45:10 pm »

Thanks Andrew & Bart.  I shall stick with pure Capture One  8)

Dave
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2019, 12:06:59 am »

I have a feeling that Capture One is reading the original RAW (.RAF and .NEF in my case) file and not the linear etc etc DNG created by the tool.

After further testing it seems that not only C1 but other tools including raw digger are reading the original Raw and not the "enhanced" (linear DNG) version.
I previously stated that the "Enhanced" DNG was RGGB (4 channels), now I realise that I cannot tell if that is the case, since that was the original Raw.

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2019, 09:09:10 am »

After further testing it seems that not only C1 but other tools including raw digger are reading the original Raw and not the "enhanced" (linear DNG) version.
I previously stated that the "Enhanced" DNG was RGGB (4 channels), now I realise that I cannot tell if that is the case, since that was the original Raw.
It's NOT the original raw. It's a DNG. The sensor raw data is "original" yes but the Metadata is converted which is what occurred whenever one converts an original proprietary raw to DNG. But this is NOT the same as embedding the actual original proprietary raw in a DNG as you can when doing a conversation to DNG in LR or using the Adobe DNG converter. Think of EN as having 2 DNGs. One only the latest LR/ACR can understand.
According to Simon Chan:
"Capture One or any other 3rd party DNG readers can only understand and read non enhanced details portion of the DNG (original raw bits), which remains intact through the enhanced details process. Only Lr/ACR currently understands the enhanced detail part of the DNG."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 09:13:28 am by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2019, 02:16:39 pm »

It's NOT the original raw. It's a DNG. The sensor raw data is "original" yes but the Metadata is converted which is what occurred whenever one converts an original proprietary raw to DNG. But this is NOT the same as embedding the actual original proprietary raw in a DNG as you can when doing a conversation to DNG in LR or using the Adobe DNG converter. Think of EN as having 2 DNGs. One only the latest LR/ACR can understand.
According to Simon Chan:
"Capture One or any other 3rd party DNG readers can only understand and read non enhanced details portion of the DNG (original raw bits), which remains intact through the enhanced details process. Only Lr/ACR currently understands the enhanced detail part of the DNG."

Thanks for the clarification

armand

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2019, 11:00:11 pm »

I played a little with the tool and as previously said the effect varies from nothing to something.
Most differences are on raf files but even there it's inconsistent, some photos where I would have expected a significant difference (lots of green) are not that affected.

On the ones where a difference is clear I also notice an increase in saturation in addition to the small increase in sharpness, possibly explaining better the overall improvement (greater difference between adjacent colors?). I think part the reason the effect if less than expected is because Adobe stepped up their xtrans files processing, I see much less artifacts these days.

Eric Brody

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2019, 11:32:47 am »

There may be a flaw in my reasoning, but I do the enhancement, work on the enhanced file in the Lightroom develop module, synchronize the corrections with the original RAW file, in my case an ARW. I then take the dng into Photoshop as a smart object and finish it there. When I'm all done in Photoshop, I delete the dng enhanced file and keep the ARW. I can always re-enhance it from the ARW and I do not need to store the large dng. This way I'm not storing an extra unnecessary file. Does anyone see an error in my logic? If so, I'd love to know. I know disc space is relatively cheap these days but it still seems wasteful to store a file I'll not likely use again and can be retrieved if I do.
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kers

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2019, 02:46:49 pm »

I thought of DNG to be an open standard, so every company should have acces to the enhanced DNG.
If not Adobe does something like every camera maker is doing. Or am i wrong?
Maybe it is just a matter of time for companies like Phase-one to read the enhanced DNG.
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2019, 03:00:15 pm »

I thought of DNG to be an open standard, so every company should have acces to the enhanced DNG.
If not Adobe does something like every camera maker is doing. Or am i wrong?
Maybe it is just a matter of time for companies like Phase-one to read the enhanced DNG.
The results of the new processing (which is proprietary) to an enhanced DNG is a linear demosaic'ed DNG.
DNG is openly documented by Adobe. Not everyone follows the documentation correctly.
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Andrew Rodney
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kers

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2019, 09:02:30 am »

The results of the new processing (which is proprietary) to an enhanced DNG is a linear demosaic'ed DNG.
DNG is openly documented by Adobe. Not everyone follows the documentation correctly.
Do you say, third parties, like Phase, could read this enhanced DNG if they just want to?
and if it is demosaic'ed; how much does it differ from a tif 16 bit? Or is that a silly question?
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digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2019, 11:48:22 am »

Do you say, third parties, like Phase, could read this enhanced DNG if they just want to?
and if it is demosaic'ed; how much does it differ from a tif 16 bit? Or is that a silly question?
Still '16-bit' (high bit data) but not totally raw; partially rendered. See: http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm
 No idea what Phase can and can't do; in the past, their adherence to DNG was iffy at best.
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Andrew Rodney
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faberryman

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2019, 11:54:15 am »

Has anyone tried processing Enhanced Details on a 2018 MacMini? If so, what sort of times were you getting?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2019, 02:16:20 pm »

Still '16-bit' (high bit data) but not totally raw; partially rendered.

Not Raw at all, but demosaiced RGB. Or, as Barry Pearson states: "This RGB image data may have come from demosaiced raw image data, or from another source such as TIFF or JPEG or something else."

Similar to the DNGs that a program like Topaz JPEG to RAW produces, cooked linear RGB, wrapped in a DNG container.

Quote
No idea what Phase can and can't do; in the past, their adherence to DNG was iffy at best.

DNG is just a container. It depends on the data in that container and whether that is well documented. AFAIK, "AI Enhanced" is not publicly documented, so it has nothing to do with what Phase One can do.

Cheers,
Bart
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kers

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2019, 02:23:38 pm »

Has anyone tried processing Enhanced Details on a 2018 MacMini? If so, what sort of times were you getting?

No but it works through the GPU- CPU is not used.
On my 250$ card i do about one d850raw in 5 sec.
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faberryman

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2019, 02:48:21 pm »

No but it works through the GPU- CPU is not used.
On my 250$ card i do about one d850raw in 5 sec.
I am interested in replacing my 2012 Mac Mini. It says Enhanced Details it will take 6 minutes, but the end it doesn't process the whole image leaving large black squares. I don't mind waiting a little, but I'd like to have some idea that it will actually work on the 2018 Mac Mini.

digitaldog

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Re: Adobe new "AI Enhanced Details"
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2019, 02:58:09 pm »

Not Raw at all, but demosaiced RGB. Or, as Barry Pearson states: "This RGB image data may have come from demosaiced raw image data, or from another source such as TIFF or JPEG or something else."

Similar to the DNGs that a program like Topaz JPEG to RAW produces, cooked linear RGB, wrapped in a DNG container.

DNG is just a container. It depends on the data in that container and whether that is well documented. AFAIK, "AI Enhanced" is not publicly documented, so it has nothing to do with what Phase One can do.

Cheers,
Bart
I never said Phase was iffy with Enhanced DNG or could deal with it. Been iffy in the past long before Enhanced functionality existed in past experience. No idea if they have improved support from last time I used C1 and I asked Doug here, no answer from him or others.
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Andrew Rodney
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