Started by vikcious, February 01, 2019, 08:31:50 am
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 02, 2019, 02:29:17 pmThat's quite disturbing. I don't like unexplained phenomina. I've never seen a difference between printing directly from IK1Profiler or the tif file using ACPU. Or, for that matter using the null transform trick to print directly from Photoshop.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 07, 2019, 02:12:35 pmCM and I1Pro2 files added.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 05:42:55 pmCheck the google driveThe only thing that shows up at this link is the tif target file.https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MQ-YyKfVDGh9tPoRw3wBp2PfXrRIfL_mExcellent set of data. Look forward to seeing all those files and profiles. Should be possible to figure out what's going on.BTW, the null=transform trick is something I use only for printing targets with Photoshop that can't be created/printed in I1Profiler. And I always check against new versions of PS given their warning.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 05:42:55 pmBTW, the null=transform trick is something I use only for printing targets with Photoshop that can't be created/printed in I1Profiler. And I always check against new versions of PS given their warning.
Quote from: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 06:00:48 pmHmm... looking at the results of test image ("PrinterEvaluationImage_V002_ProPhoto.tif") converted to the created profiles, I can clearly see that the "null trick" printing is not the way to go! It badly affects smooth transitions and causes a lot of black blocking. I could come back with updated shots to exemplify.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 06:08:36 pmIf you are using the null transform trick it's important not to use the Canon plug-in. Use only the driver and manually disable color management. You would use the same settings as printing directly from I1Profiler or ACPU.
Quote from: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 06:14:47 pmThat is exactly what I did! Prior to clicking "Print" I would always check to see if color correction is off in the driver settings.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 07:24:59 pmYou should see exactly the same results printing with ACPU (Which is the gold standard for printing w/o CM).
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 amHere's a summary of white/black points for the new set of profiles:The 3 numbers are L*a*b* values in 3 groups. "WP" is the Lab value of unprinted paper. The b* value will be quite negative for papers with high OBA for M0 and especially M2 profiles because of the uV.BP_PI is the Lab for printed RGB (0,0,0) using Perceptual Intent. It's usually more neutral than the black using Relative Intent.BP_RI is the printed RGB (0,0,0) without BPC. It's usually the lowest possible L* but may have more chromaticity than Perceptual intent.The "Descr" is the name of the profile as shown in applications and is not necessarily the same as the profile file name.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 amOne thing that's clear. There is a difference between printing bypassing the plug-in. And the plug-in appears to print darker blacks.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 amHave you tried printing directly from I1Profiler rather than making the tif then printing it in Photoshop with PSP? It may be that PSP is needed for best results. Perhaps the driver is different which may well be the case since it processes 16 bit data through the PSP. If so you should always print through PSP.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 amAdded: I just reviewed Mark Segal's review of the 2000 and he notes that ACPU does a pretty bad job on the 2000 (Unlike other printers) and that Canon confirmed and recommended PSP. ACPU, I1Profiler's direct printing, and the null-trick should all use the same path through the printer. So it does appear there is a difference in drivers and PSP should be preferred.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 amAside from that, from earlier results it appears the I1Pro 2 is also higher reading L* than the CM. You may need to make profiles with the CM or spring for a new I1Pro2.
Quote from: vikcious on February 09, 2019, 02:58:45 pmDear Doug, yet again, thanks a lot for the effort you've put into shedding some light into this weird story.
QuoteCould you please share how / where from (what tool?) do you use to extract all this info? I would like to be able to do it myself and not have to bother you every time! Thanks!
QuoteTo me it's 100% clear! At least for the PRO-2000+ series the only valid way to print targets remains through the Canon PSP plugin from PS. Even my "best" profile so far (CM based one) used this approach for the targets printing.Despite serious doubts, I will probably try.
QuoteThis hurts! Let's discuss this situation a bit. The EFI ES-2000 was purchased as new, from ebay, (really only showed like 3 seconds of lamp usage at first usage of i1Diagonstics) and I can hardly believe it's a faulty one. Or maybe I'm just reprieving myself this thought! Could it really be?
QuoteA) So basically my old CM is able to both read a higher WP and a lower BP against the i1Pro2, correct?B) Am I correct to say that based on the metrics you've provided i1Pro2 spectrophotometer looks like it's not coping well with dark tones / blacks? C) Is the most of the clipping, I am seeing from the created profiles, appear to come in dark violet / dark blues values which happen to fit with the way the gamut it's actually shaped and where the big missing chunk appears, when compared against the Canon's or CM's profiles?D) I am not exactly sure how much the i1Pro2 metering is deviating since I don't have another one at hand, nor do I have anyone close to me with whom I could double-check using same paper.E) Is there any more conclusive battery of tests I could run for i1Pro2 in order to prove it's really a faulty copy? I kinda feel I need to check more but I am totally clueless on how/what could I do. Any idea?F) What should I be doing now? Sell it? Try to send it for factory calibration though I am not sure if I should send it to EFI or X-Rite and I suspect it will cost a small fortune to have it calibrated once again, am I wrong?Looking forward for your (and others) guidance on this issue!
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amWell, this is interesting. The ColorMunki profile based on 200 patches is a much closer match to the 650 patch null profile than it is to the PSP.Algorithm: Use 10,000 random RGB values and convert to Lab values using three profiles. Then make a histogram of the distribution of delta E's between the profiles. This is much more useful than gamut volume.CM (200 patch): ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CMPSP I1Pro: ArtMaker Cristal Luster PSP ARG_SCAN M2Null I1Pro: ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amThe CM and Null I1Pro are far closer to each other than the two I1Pro profiles. This suggests that the CM target was printed the same way as the I1Pro Null target.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amSo in this case the largest differences by far were PSP/Null related and not spectro differences. And the CM profile even had far fewer patches!
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amSomething strange is going on and you might be best to focus on the printing process. Make sure you are using identical settings in PSP and that you don't do a printer calibration in between.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amI suggest the following things to do apples to apples.1. Only generate M2 profiles. Comparing CM and I1Pro is only possible with M2.2. Don't bother generating separate profiles with I1Profiler and Argyll. They produce effectively the same Relative Colorimetric tables.3. When using PSP, only print using PSP with identical settings.
Quote from: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 amIf you want to explore Null trick, ACPU, or direct printing from I1Profiler, use the same settings by creating a name for the all the settings then make sure you select that name each time you print. It's possible, perhaps likely, that PSP is changing some of the values in the driver beyond just disabling color management.
Quote from: vikcious on February 10, 2019, 03:51:10 am Well... disappointment doubles: CM used 840 patches...
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