Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Colour Management => Topic started by: vikcious on February 01, 2019, 08:31:50 AM

Title: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 01, 2019, 08:31:50 AM
Hi everyone,

I have recently upgraded my spectrophotometer from Colormunki Design to i1Pro2 (actually an ES-2000) and eagerly proceed to create some new paper profiles. In the past 99% of my profiles were created with ArgyllCMS since Colormunki design i1 studio was too lame.
I like a lot the powerful ArgyllCMS and most of the time the results were outstanding and yet the command-line experience didn’t scare me that much probably given my past experience being a Unix geek. Anyway…
Here comes the trouble. In short, given pretty much the same Argyll patches and commands, the difference in gamut size (for the same type of paper) between profiles created with Colormunki Design vs the ones created i1Pro2 is quite severe, almost 15% less gamut in the profile created with i1Pro2.

Basically the Colormunki profile (ArtMakerHighGlossy260_QM) is 776k cubic gamut units while i1Pro2 profile (ArtMakerHighGlossy260) is 672k cubic gamut units.

I started using i1Profiler and, despite my limited proficiency with the tool and its famous lack of proper documentation, I have managed to get quite a good profile but with even less gamut than the profile I would get from ArgyllCMS using pretty much the same amount of patches.
I have a feeling that the profile generation workflow in ArgyllCMS could be different for the two spectrophotometers but so far I haven’t been able to track the proper differences that would result in such a gamut loss.

I am confused and not so sure what is wrong! Is this just plain normal, as a difference between different hardware, is there a catch in the ArgyllCMS workflow or am I plain dumb… ‘cause confused I really I am! 😊

Any guidance of any type would be appreciated.

My basic ArgyllCMS profile workflow creation is like this:
Paper I am trying to profile now is a RC, high OBA/FWA content (for sure!) produced by the same factory that produces many of the Canon papers, here in Romania. Actually I have measured this paper spectral reflectance and it’s incredibly similar to the results of “Glossy Photo Paper 240gsm” Ernst Dinkla has captured in his SpectrumViz treasure box! 😉

Target Preparation
targen.exe -v -d2 -c CN_PRO-2000_520_GlossyPhotoPaperHG255.icc -R -e8 -G -g128 -f1046 ArtMakerHighGlossy260

Target Printing
printtarg.exe -v -iCM -h -R1 -L -m10 -M10 -T300 -p A4 -P ArtMakerHighGlossy260 (for Colormunki)
printtarg.exe -v -ii1 -h -R1 -L -m10 -M10 -T300 -p A4 -P ArtMakerHighGlossy260 (for i1Pro2)

Target Reading
chartread -v -H -T0.4 ArtMakerHighGlossy260 (for Colormunki)
chartread -v -H ArtMakerHighGlossy260 (for i1Pro2)

Profile Generation
colprof -v -qh -r1.0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker High Glossy 260g" ArtMakerHighGlossy260 --> OR -->
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker High Glossy 260g" ArtMakerHighGlossy260
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 01, 2019, 01:26:00 PM
Looks like the larger differences are on the violet side. That's likely due to the impact of M0 (I1Pro 2 default) v M2 (CM).

If you're willing, zip the two profiles and attach the zip file to a post. I have pretty good tools that can detail out the impact on dE at a range of in gamut colors. Alternately, I can PM you my email if you'd rather not post them. But posting the zips here would let others analyze the profile differences as well and thus could provide a larger range of views.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 01, 2019, 01:36:46 PM
Looks like the larger differences are on the violet side. That's likely due to the impact of M0 (I1Pro 2 default) v M2 (CM).

If you're willing, zip the two profiles and attach the zip file to a post. I have pretty good tools that can detail out the impact on dE at a range of in gamut colors. Alternately, I can PM you my email if you'd rather not post them. But posting the zips here would let others analyze the profile differences as well and thus could provide a larger range of views.

Hi Doug,
Thanks for jumping in to help. No worries, I can share the profiles here. I'm not that "paternal" about them and if other can learn from my mistakes I am always willing to share. Here they are!

Also, depending on how proficient are you with Argyll, could you please validate my workflow specifically for the i1Pro2 usage? I feel like I'm missing smth when trying to profile high OBA/FWA papers with the my new i1Pro2 and Argyll.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 01, 2019, 02:15:22 PM
I downloaded the profiles. A quick look sees nothing wrong. The Argyll profile, as is the default, produces identical tables for Perc. Rel. And Sat. The paper shows a b* shift around 6 between the two which is typical for a high OBA paper between M0 and M2.

I'm running some other checks on the Rel Col. Abs isn't useful as it will vary considerably due to the M0/M2 differences. Will let you know much more detail in a hour or so.

Had some other stuff to do but am back on this. Interestingly, the profiles contain spectro data in 3.3nm increments instead of the standard 10nm. I'm going to look at both instrument's C Y and M spectra for clues.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 01, 2019, 07:38:51 PM
I'm going to create an I1Profiler CGATs files out of the spectral data and make profiles using I1Profiler for comparison. Should be interesting to compare them.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 01, 2019, 09:52:01 PM
The tone curves on neutral colors differ significantly. L* is 10 to 15 higher on the I1Pro generated profile. It's not the profile. The spectral data shows the same thing.

Somehow the target printed for the I1Pro was not printed with color management turned off while the CM one was. What workflow did you use to print the I1Pro targets?


BTW, Profiles created from the data sets using I1Profiler are quite close to the Argyll ones. Problem was in the printing of the I1Pro patch set.

The graph shows printed, Rel Col,  L* v device space RGB neutral values from 0 to 255. The blue line is the CM profile. The orange line is the I1Pro profile. The latter was not printed with color management off. Your Argyll s/w creates 16 bit tiff files which should be printed in device RGB space with color management off using the same settings when printing with a profile in Photoshop. Are you using Windows, iOS or some other OS?


BTW, my first exposure to Unix and command line stuff, aside from DOS, was running an IBM-XT with 2 extra user terminals on RS-232. We did device driver coding, source control, and documentation on it.  Quite amazing in retrospect as it only had 640KB of RAM. Somewhere around '82 or '83.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: dehnhaide on February 02, 2019, 02:55:29 AM
I'm going to create an I1Profiler CGATs files out of the spectral data and make profiles using I1Profiler for comparison. Should be interesting to compare them.

Niiiice, I wish I could learn how to do that too. I am very much into learning everything about color management since have a little crush on it since I bought my Canon PRO-2000! Is there information available how to do that? Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 03:36:55 AM
The tone curves on neutral colors differ significantly. L* is 10 to 15 higher on the I1Pro generated profile. It's not the profile. The spectral data shows the same thing.

Somehow the target printed for the I1Pro was not printed with color management turned off while the CM one was. What workflow did you use to print the I1Pro targets?

Hmm... then we might have a problem! Because my workflow for printing the targets is always the same.


BTW, Profiles created from the data sets using I1Profiler are quite close to the Argyll ones. Problem was in the printing of the I1Pro patch set.

The graph shows printed, Rel Col,  L* v device space RGB neutral values from 0 to 255. The blue line is the CM profile. The orange line is the I1Pro profile. The latter was not printed with color management off. Your Argyll s/w creates 16 bit tiff files which should be printed in device RGB space with color management off using the same settings when printing with a profile in Photoshop. Are you using Windows, iOS or some other OS?
So it goes like this. Windows 10 + Canon PRO-2000. You can see from the images I attached that the printing workflow is pretty basic. And using Canon Print Studio Pro to print without color correction was specifically indicated in one of two Canon PRO-2000 major reviews as the way to print without color correction on this printer. Can't remember if it was on northlight-images or on Mark Segal's one.
Is this wrong? And if so why was it OK for the CM targets and any different for the i1pro2? I don't get it... :(

BTW, my first exposure to Unix and command line stuff, aside from DOS, was running an IBM-XT with 2 extra user terminals on RS-232. We did device driver coding, source control, and documentation on it.  Quite amazing in retrospect as it only had 640KB of RAM. Somewhere around '82 or '83.
I am definitely younger than you and my UNIX odyssey started back in the 1990 when the very fist exposure to UNIX was via Chip magazine that included the mighty Slackware cd-rom. I remember I was impressed at that time by how unfriendly it looked and cumbersome was to actually get that Xorg graphic server up and running on my Tseng 6000 video card. And from that point on ... I build my carrier on it! ;) Anyway... those days were amazing and I keep them dear memories.  ;)

BTW... I have attached another three profiles:
The profile I created with i1Profiler for the same paper we're discussing here (ArtMaker_HighGlossy_260g_1701p_i1pro2)
There other profiles I created for under the same circumstances for a different paper (high OBA, RC, Crystal Luster, 270g):
- one older created with CM and Argyll (ArtMakerCristaLuster_840p_CM_HQ)
- one new created with i1Pro2 and Argyll (ArtMakerCrystalLuster270_i1Pro2)
- one new created with i1Pro2 and i1Profiler (ArtMaker_CrystalLuster_270g_546_i1pro2)

Same observations + 1 new... Reduced gamut CM vs i1Pro2 and the new is that the black levels on the i1pro2 profile got with Argyll are messed up vs the profile crated in i1Profiler. I have attached a screen shot of what is happening when I am soft-proofing!
 
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 03:39:14 AM
Had to split the initial archive because it was exceeding the 4096KB limit. He I've attached the last one of the three profiles described in the previous post.
 
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 01:08:39 PM
The tone curves on neutral colors differ significantly. L* is 10 to 15 higher on the I1Pro generated profile. It's not the profile. The spectral data shows the same thing.

Somehow the target printed for the I1Pro was not printed with color management turned off while the CM one was. What workflow did you use to print the I1Pro targets?

Found it! It was Mark Seagal's review and he noted:

"This reassured me that the methodology *can be* fine. But clearly not “all else is equal”; so “what gives” between ACPU and the Canon driver with this Pro-2000 printer? Further consultation with Canon revealed that they too had worked on this issue and they recommended I should not use ACPU for generating the profiling targets in these particular printers, but rather their own utility – Photoshop Plugin Print Studio Pro Version 2.1.0 (hereafter PSP), with the Color Mode set to “No Color Correction”. *Why* has never been clarified, this being a matter best left to the engineers in Adobe and Canon, but my basic objective was to see what works best empirically and then use it to print."
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 02, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
Found it! It was Mark Seagal's review and he noted:

"This reassured me that the methodology *can be* fine. But clearly not “all else is equal”; so “what gives” between ACPU and the Canon driver with this Pro-2000 printer? Further consultation with Canon revealed that they too had worked on this issue and they recommended I should not use ACPU for generating the profiling targets in these particular printers, but rather their own utility – Photoshop Plugin Print Studio Pro Version 2.1.0 (hereafter PSP), with the Color Mode set to “No Color Correction”. *Why* has never been clarified, this being a matter best left to the engineers in Adobe and Canon, but my basic objective was to see what works best empirically and then use it to print."


That's quite disturbing. I don't like unexplained phenomina. I've never seen a difference between printing directly from IK1Profiler or the tif file using ACPU. Or, for that matter using the null transform trick to print directly from Photoshop.

My Canon 9500 has only intermittently worked with Canon's Print Studio Pro. To gprint through Photoshop, I just use the null transform approach (Which does not work with iOS but does with all versions of Photoshop and Windows) .

That said, whatever Studio Pro is doing it should be the same for the different targets and that's not the case. No idea why.

My standard test for checking profiles is to print a Colorchecker image from BabelColor using Abs. Col. then visually compare it to an actual Colorchecker.

Here's the 2D gamut at L*=25 for the CM and I1 profiles you made. IK also stripped the spectral data and made profiles using I1Profiler.

The white lines are from I1Profiler profiles, the yellow from Argyll..  The outer group is the ColorMunki data, the inner group is the i1Pro.  The Argyll and IK1Profiler profiles are quite close with small differences since they have different numbers of 3D LUTs.

Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Panagiotis on February 02, 2019, 03:11:04 PM
Canon PSP is not a stand alone app, so targets must be opened first in PS and the plugin is called from there. Maybe the iPro2 targets accidentally got a profile conversion when opened in PS?
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 03:41:29 PM
Canon PSP is not a stand alone app, so targets must be opened first in PS and the plugin is called from there. Maybe the iPro2 targets accidentally got a profile conversion when opened in PS?

Absolutely no chance of error on assigning or converting the profile. You can actually see from my screenshot above that I clicked on OK without triggering the profile assignment. I do the all the time, all the same for all targets.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Panagiotis on February 02, 2019, 03:45:28 PM
Absolutely no chance of error on assigning or converting the profile. You can actually see from my screenshot above that I clicked on OK without triggering the profile assignment. I do the all the time, all the same for all targets.

(EDIT: Sorry I just noticed the screenshot from PS above!)

This is strange then. Was it the same version of PSP for both targets sets?
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 03:51:25 PM
That's quite disturbing. I don't like unexplained phenomina. I've never seen a difference between printing directly from IK1Profiler or the tif file using ACPU. Or, for that matter using the null transform trick to print directly from Photoshop.

I will be traveling for the next 3 days but when back I will try to print either directly from i1Profiles or from ACPU. Never did but willing to try.

My Canon 9500 has only intermittently worked with Canon's Print Studio Pro. To gprint through Photoshop, I just use the null transform approach (Which does not work with iOS but does with all versions of Photoshop and Windows).

Could you please clue me what is this "null transform approach", please?

That said, whatever Studio Pro is doing it should be the same for the different targets and that's not the case. No idea why.

My standard test for checking profiles is to print a Colorchecker image from BabelColor using Abs. Col. then visually compare it to an actual Colorchecker.

Here's the 2D gamut at L*=25 for the CM and I1 profiles you made. IK also stripped the spectral data and made profiles using I1Profiler.

The white lines are from I1Profiler profiles, the yellow from Argyll..  The outer group is the ColorMunki data, the inner group is the i1Pro.  The Argyll and IK1Profiler profiles are quite close with small differences since they have different numbers of 3D LUTs.

I am curious if you are able to detect the same mismatch in the printing condition from the latest i1Profiler profile that I attached. Its absolutely the same workflow and I have real doubts the first one was a mistake.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to tinker with this.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 03:52:57 PM
(EDIT: Sorry I just noticed the screenshot from PS above!)

This is strange then. Was it the same version of PSP for both targets sets?

Absolutely! I actually haven't updated the software (PSP) since I got the printer last October.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Panagiotis on February 02, 2019, 04:06:59 PM
I will be traveling for the next 3 days but when back I will try to print either directly from i1Profiles or from ACPU. Never did but willing to

There is also the new standalone and plugin application from Canon called Professional Print & Layout which is also has a "No Color Correction" option presumably for printing profiling targets.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 02, 2019, 04:53:34 PM
Could you please clue me what is this "null transform approach", please?

In Windows, one can print w/o color management by doing the following:
Open the tiff target image but make sure it isn't automatically converted to a working colorspace. This doesn't normally happen but there are custom settings that can do it.

1. Assign any printer profile to the image. But note the exact name of the profile. I like to pick one close to the list top to make it easier to find.
2. Now open the print dialog. Make sure the driver has color management turned off. Set Photoshop Manages Colors then choose the exact same profile as in step one. You will get a scary warning that you appear to be trying to print w/o color management and it suggests and links to a program (ACPU). Ignore the warning and cancel the warning box. It's there because this doesn't work in iOS.

Ignore the other settings like Colorimetric Intent, BPC, and such. They have no effect when the printer profile of the image is the same as the printer profile selected in the dialog box.

This technique is also used when creating a montage and desiring to print the images with differing Intents such as Perc., Rel. Col. Abs. Col. with/without  BPC. Convert each to the printer profile using desired intent. Insert them into a blank canvas that has been assigned the printer's profile.  Then just print using the same profile.
Quote

I am curious if you are able to detect the same mismatch in the printing condition from the latest i1Profiler profile that I attached. Its absolutely the same workflow and I have real doubts the first one was a mistake.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to tinker with this.

The profile appears to be quite a different paper (matte?) with a white point at L*=92 and black point at L*=13. Also a ton of OBAs. No way to compare against the other two.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 02, 2019, 05:18:14 PM
In Windows, one can print w/o color management by doing the following:
Open the tiff target image but make sure it isn't automatically converted to a working colorspace. This doesn't normally happen but there are custom settings that can do it.

1. Assign any printer profile to the image. But note the exact name of the profile. I like to pick one close to the list top to make it easier to find.
2. Now open the print dialog. Make sure the driver has color management turned off. Set Photoshop Manages Colors then choose the exact same profile as in step one. You will get a scary warning that you appear to be trying to print w/o color management and it suggests and links to a program (ACPU). Ignore the warning and cancel the warning box. It's there because this doesn't work in iOS.

Ignore the other settings like Colorimetric Intent, BPC, and such. They have no effect when the printer profile of the image is the same as the printer profile selected in the dialog box.

This technique is also used when creating a montage and desiring to print the images with differing Intents such as Perc., Rel. Col. Abs. Col. with/without  BPC. Convert each to the printer profile using desired intent. Insert them into a blank canvas that has been assigned the printer's profile.  Then just print using the same profile.

Wow! That's quite a workflow! Thanks for sharing, Doug! Never seen this before!
The profile appears to be quite a different paper (matte?) with a white point at L*=92 and black point at L*=13. Also a ton of OBAs. No way to compare against the other two.

Well, surprise surprise! All the last three profiles I've submitted are for the same paper, luster semi matte type! At least from a gamut perspective the situation is / should be similar to the initial one!
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 02, 2019, 06:04:16 PM
Here's a summary of the three profiles you made:

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArtMakerHighGlossy260.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker High Glossy 260g 2nd" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  95.2   1.8  -6.3     BP_PI:   2.7  -0.5  -1.1    BP_RI:   3.0   0.3  -0.5

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArtMakerHighGlossy260_QM.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker High Glossy 260g" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  94.7   0.2  -0.8     BP_PI:   3.2  -0.2  -0.1    BP_RI:   3.2  -0.2  -0.1

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArtMaker_CrystalLuster_270g_546_i1pro2.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker_CrystalLuster_270g_546_i1pro2.icm" Ver: 2.1.0   Copyright: "Copyright X-Rite, Inc."
WP:  92.0   2.4  -9.7     BP_PI:  13.1   1.9   0.6    BP_RI:  13.1   1.9   0.6


Notice the white point shift (b*) for the two made with an I1Pro.

Also noticed the huge increase in black point in the last one with L* going form 3 to 13.  That's why the soft proof looks like it does. Something is messing up your results.

I suggest you use a single page, small (200 to 400)  patch set for all future tests until whatever is causing these variations is found and fixed. By using the same patch set you can directly compare patches printed on each. They should, of course, be quite close and visibly the same. This also makes extracting the data and comparing them much easier.

I noticed the last profile has 8 bit RGB values and spectral data at 10nm intervals. The first two had 16 bit RGB values (scaled 0:100) and spectral data at 3.3nm intervals. Argyll has this higher resolution option, XRite doesn't and uses only 10nm intervals.

I checked the RGB(0,0,0) spectral values and they show about 1.4% reflectance which is quite a lot higher than the other two profiles which were about .3%.

These results are extremely strange.  Too many variables. Each of the 3 profiles has different patch sets, which makes troubleshooting unnecessarily complex.

Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: GWGill on February 02, 2019, 06:50:26 PM
That's quite disturbing. I don't like unexplained phenomina. I've never seen a difference between printing directly from IK1Profiler or the tif file using ACPU. Or, for that matter using the null transform trick to print directly from Photoshop.
The saga of Apple providing a reliable API for applications to print color profile test charts has been going on for something like a decade. It's a complete disgrace, with lots of finger pointing between Apple and printer manufacturers, but seemingly no final resolution. Meanwhile, it all just works on MSWindows ...
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 05, 2019, 01:52:52 AM
To determine where the inconsistencies are it's best to use the same, small chart for both the ColorMunki and I1Pro.

I recommend this 200 Argyll patch set:
targen -v -d2 -G -e0 -B0 -g8 -f200 -R test_target_cm
targen -v -d2 -G -e0 -B0 -g8 -f200 -R test_target
printtarg -v -r -iCM -h -b -t360 -m3 -M3 -P -pA4 test_target_cm
printtarg -v -r -ii1 -h -b -t360 -m3 -M3 -P -pA4 test_target

I've attached the same as a CGATs file that can be imported into I1Profiler as well.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 07, 2019, 02:12:35 PM
CM and I1Pro2 files added.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 07, 2019, 04:52:40 PM
CM and I1Pro2 files added.

Here are the two results from Argyll... with even more reduced gamut! :((( I just don't get it!

Paper is RC luster, semi-matt

Commands used:
targen -v -d2 -G -e0 -B0 -g8 -f200 -R test_target_cm
targen -v -d2 -G -e0 -B0 -g8 -f200 -R test_target_i1p2

printtarg -v -r -iCM -h -b -t300 -m3 -M3 -P -pA4 test_target_cm  -> printed with null transform trick
printtarg -v -r -ii1 -h -b -t300 -m10 -M10 -P -pA4 test_target_i1p2 -> printed with null transform trick

chartread -v -AA test_target_cm
chartread -v -AA test_target_i1p2

colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CM" test_target_cm
profcheck -k test_target_cm.ti3 test_target_cm.icm
Profile check complete, errors(CIEDE2000): max. = 0.775805, avg. = 0.286134, RMS = 0.322064

colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -f -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker High Gloss 260g i1p2" test_target_i1p2 or
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM2 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker High Gloss 260g i1p2" test_target_i1p2
profcheck -k test_target_i1p2.ti3 test_target_i1p2.icm
Profile check complete, errors(CIEDE2000): max. = 1.777152, avg. = 0.925869, RMS = 0.979589

I am not yet done with the i1Profiler icc creation. I will updated it asap.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 07, 2019, 05:06:27 PM
Adding profiles generation logs.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 01:45:08 AM
Your latest tests make it possible to compare the patches with the same RGB values. As for the smaller gamut compared to the other 260g profiles, that's from using the tiny patch set and is about what I would expect. But the purpose of the small patch set is to identify differences between the spectrophotometers and workflow.

I'd like to clarify something: Going back to the start, you seem to have two different papers. One is typical of matte paper with a high black point, the other typical of glossy type paper. Is this the case?

"ArtMaker High Glossy 260g" : typical characteristics of glossy paper.
"ArtMaker High Glossy 270g" : typical characteristics of matte paper.

The latest tests are the 270g paper and show typical matte characteristics.

Comparing the two spectro's over the first 8 neutral patches which span RGB 0 to 255, I've attached a spectral plot. The I1Pro shows  more reflectance (lighter levels) in the darker patches. This is consistent with your earlier data too. Could be the I1Pro2 might need to be cleaned. But this isn't a huge effect in comparison to the 260g v 270g profiles and data which indicates either different paper or printer settings.

The two profiles from the I1Pro are the same and characteristic of M0 spectros. You can see the bump up in the shorter wavelengths. To have Argyll simulate M2 you need to give colprof the option "-fM2"

However, uV only affects the shorter wavelengths and has no impact on the reflectance spectrum over about 520nm. So the differences there are due to the spectros themselves. It might be that the I1Pro components have acquired some small amount of contamination. You might try removing the head and cleaning the glass aperture.

The graph shows the log10(reflectance) so -1=10% refl, -2=1% refl, etc.  Otherwise the graph lines would cluster toward the bottom. The green line at the bottom is the very low reflectance typical of glossy papers and if from an earlier 260g profile.

Notice how the I1Pro increasingly diverges from the CM as the patches get darker.


Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 04:33:29 PM
Hi Doug & others,

Today I have spent an important amount of time trying to re-run all the possible scenarios in a more structured way, easier to follow and reproduce, in order to properly track the results. Since I'm about to lose my mind...

Here we go!  8)

Printer Model: Canon ImagePrograph PRO-2000 (all original inks)
Paper Type: RC, high OBA, semi-matte (or semi-glossy, whatever!)
Spectrophotometers: ColorMunki Design (aka CM) & ES-2000 / i1 Pro2 (aka i1pro2) -> both clean with i1Diagnostics "ALL PAASED"
Calibration software: i1Profiler v1.8.2 (all modules licensed) & ArgyllCMS v2.0.1

This is the link where all the profiles referenced below can be found:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JAZd45TaIKzA5ZWAG_q_Vw2u9fF-LLV7

1iProfiler WORKFLOW
Target Generation
Generated 650 patches target (/w16 gray patches) resulting in TIFF/8bit target

Target Printing
Printed each target on one A4 paper using:
"null trick" version from PS (as guided by you) --> All files with "null_print" in their filename are based on tiff printed with "null trick"
Canon Print Studio Pro from PS /w "No color correction" option (as indicated by Mark Segal's review) --> All files with "psp_print" or "cpsp_print" in their filename are based on tiff printed with Canon's Print Studio Pro

Target Scanning
Dual Scan (M0, M1, M2 and OBC)
Printer Information: RGB Printer
Paper Information: Matte

Profile Generation
Ambient Light: CIE Illuminant D50

Perceptual: Contrast +25
Perceptual: Saturation +25
Perceptual: Neutralize gray +50

Tables: AtoB - Large
Tables: BtoA - Large
Tables: Granularity 16bits

Advanced: Smoothness +50
Advanced: Chromatic Adaptation: Bradford
Advanced: ICC Profile Version: 2 or 4
Advanced: Profile White Point: Default

Profiles created:
i1profiler_650_on_A4_null_print_v2.icm
i1profiler_650_on_A4_null_print_v4.icm
and
i1profiler_650_on_A4_psp_print_v2.icm
i1profiler_650_on_A4_psp_print_v4.icm


ArgyllCMS WORKFLOW
Target Generation
Generated 650 patches target (/w64 gray patches) resulting in TIFF/8bit target

targen.exe -v -d2 -e8 -G -g64 -f650 ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print
targen.exe -v -d2 -e8 -G -g64 -f650 ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print

printtarg.exe -v -ii1 -R0 -n -t300 -C -M5 -m5 -pA4 -a 0.857 -A 0.857 ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print
printtarg.exe -v -ii1 -R0 -n -t300 -C -M5 -m5 -pA4 -a 0.857 -A 0.857 ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print

Target Printing
Printed each target on one A4 paper using:
"null trick" version from PS (as guided by you) --> All files with "null_print" in their filename are based on tiff printed with "null trick"
Canon Print Studio Pro from PS /w "No color correction" option (as indicated by Mark Segal's review) --> All files with "psp_print" or "cpsp_print" in their filename are based on tiff printed with Canon's Print Studio Pro

Target Scanning
Slow scanning, using i1pro2 table and guided rule

chartread -v -AA -H ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print
chartread -v -AA -H ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print

Profile Generation
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster NULL ARG_SCAN M0" ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print --> profile: ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print_M0_QH.icm
and
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster NULL ARG_SCAN M0" ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print --> profile: ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print_M0_QH.icm
colprof -v -qu -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM2 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster NULL ARG_SCAN M2" ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print --> profile: ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print_M2_QU.icm

ADDITIONALLY
1. Saved the measurements from i1Pofiler as i1Profiler CGATS Custom file ".txt"
2. Transformed the files in ArgyllCMS with:
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0.txt argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1.txt argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2.txt argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2
and
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M0.txt argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M0
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M1.txt argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M1
txt2ti3.exe -v -2 argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M2.txt argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M2

3. Created the ICC profiles from the resulting ".ti3" files as:
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g ARG_M0_2_M0" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0.icm
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g ARG_M1_2_M1" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1.icm
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g ARG_M2_2_M2" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2.icm
and
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M0_2_M0" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M0.icm
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M1_2_M1" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M1.icm
colprof -v -qh -i D50 -o 1931_2 -r1.0 -cmt -dpp -fM0 -S "AdobeRGB.icc" -D "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2" argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2  --> profile: argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M2.icm

CONCLUSIONS
After all this effort, time spent, resources wasted I still cannot get a better profile from the i1 Pro2 as compared to ColorMunki.
Two profiles tell the whole story:
ArtMakerCristaLuster_840p_HQ.icm --> 658K cubit units... better DMax
vs
ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print_M2_QU.icm --> 532K cubic units (a decrease of 20% in gamut size!!!)

Aside from these dry technicalities the overall quality in image conversion (on screen) and image printed (visual arbitration) is obvious, not neglect-able and bothering!

 :( :( :( What is going on?!! Please help!   :( :( :(
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 05:42:55 PM
Check the google drive
The only thing that shows up at this link is the tif target file.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MQ-YyKfVDGh9tPoRw3wBp2PfXrRIfL_m

Excellent set of data. Look forward to seeing all those files and profiles. Should be possible to figure out what's going on.

BTW, the null=transform trick is something I use only for printing targets with Photoshop that can't be created/printed in I1Profiler. And I always check against new versions of PS given their warning.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 05:56:27 PM
Check the google drive
The only thing that shows up at this link is the tif target file.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MQ-YyKfVDGh9tPoRw3wBp2PfXrRIfL_m

Excellent set of data. Look forward to seeing all those files and profiles. Should be possible to figure out what's going on.

BTW, the null=transform trick is something I use only for printing targets with Photoshop that can't be created/printed in I1Profiler. And I always check against new versions of PS given their warning.

Oh dear, my bad! I have updated the link! ;)
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 06:00:48 PM
BTW, the null=transform trick is something I use only for printing targets with Photoshop that can't be created/printed in I1Profiler. And I always check against new versions of PS given their warning.

Hmm... looking at the results of test image ("PrinterEvaluationImage_V002_ProPhoto.tif") converted to the created profiles, I can clearly see that the "null trick" printing is not the way to go! It badly affects smooth transitions and causes a lot of black blocking. I could come back with updated shots to exemplify.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 06:08:36 PM
Hmm... looking at the results of test image ("PrinterEvaluationImage_V002_ProPhoto.tif") converted to the created profiles, I can clearly see that the "null trick" printing is not the way to go! It badly affects smooth transitions and causes a lot of black blocking. I could come back with updated shots to exemplify.

If you are using the null transform trick it's important not to use the Canon plug-in. Use only the driver and manually disable color management. You would use the same settings as printing directly from I1Profiler or ACPU.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 08, 2019, 06:14:47 PM
If you are using the null transform trick it's important not to use the Canon plug-in. Use only the driver and manually disable color management. You would use the same settings as printing directly from I1Profiler or ACPU.

That is exactly what I did! Prior to clicking "Print" I would always check to see if color correction is off in the driver settings.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 08, 2019, 07:24:59 PM
That is exactly what I did! Prior to clicking "Print" I would always check to see if color correction is off in the driver settings.

Looks right, assuming you had assigned the same "Adhesive" profile to the target.

For printing a regular image say, in Adobe RGB, you would first convert from Adobe RGB into the desired printer profile setting intents as desired then select that same profile to print it from Photoshop similar to your example.

You should see exactly the same results printing with ACPU (Which is the gold standard for printing w/o CM).

Not sure what's going on. Perhaps the Canon plug-in is somehow altering the printing. While I have a Canon, an older 9500 II, I haven't been able to get their plug-in to work in current Photoshops so can't test that.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 02:12:05 AM
Here's a summary of white/black points for the new set of profiles:

The 3 numbers are L*a*b* values in 3 groups. "WP" is the Lab value of unprinted paper. The b* value will be quite negative for papers with high OBA for M0 and especially M2 profiles because of the uV.

BP_PI is the Lab for printed RGB (0,0,0) using Perceptual Intent. It's usually more neutral than the black using Relative Intent.

BP_RI is the printed RGB (0,0,0) without BPC. It's usually the lowest possible L* but may have more chromaticity than Perceptual intent.

The "Descr" is the name of the profile as shown in applications and is not necessarily the same as the profile file name.


Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArgyllPure_650patches_null-print_M0_QH.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster NULL ARG_SCAN M0" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  92.0   2.5  -9.7     BP_PI:  17.0   0.8   2.1    BP_RI:  16.5   1.3   0.9

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print_M0_QH.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster PSP ARG_SCAN M0" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.9   2.6 -10.0     BP_PI:  14.2   0.3  -0.2    BP_RI:  14.3   0.4  -0.4

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArgyllPure_650patches_psp-print_M2_QU.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster PSP ARG_SCAN M2" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.7   0.7  -4.2     BP_PI:  14.2  -0.5   2.7    BP_RI:  14.2  -0.3   1.8

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\ArtMakerCristaLuster_840p_HQ.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster SemiGloss" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  92.7   1.2  -4.2     BP_PI:  11.7   0.6   1.7    BP_RI:  11.7   0.6   1.7

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M0.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M0_2_M0" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  92.0   2.5  -9.5     BP_PI:  17.3   1.1   1.7    BP_RI:  17.0   2.1  -0.8


Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M1.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M1_2_M1" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  92.4   3.5 -14.1     BP_PI:  17.4   1.2   0.6    BP_RI:  17.0   2.8  -3.1

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.7   0.6  -2.2     BP_PI:  17.2   0.7   2.7    BP_RI:  16.9   1.6   0.8

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M0.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster PSP ARG_M0_2_M0" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.4   2.6  -9.5     BP_PI:  14.1   0.6  -0.3    BP_RI:  14.1   0.6  -0.3

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M1.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster PSP ARG_M1_2_M1" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.8   3.5 -14.1     BP_PI:  14.2   0.8  -1.4    BP_RI:  14.2   0.8  -1.4

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\argyll_650_on_A4_psp_print_M2.icm"
Descr: "ArtMaker CristalLuster PSP ARG_M2_2_M2" Ver: 2.2.0   Copyright: "Copyright, the creator of this profile"
WP:  91.1   0.7  -2.3     BP_PI:  14.0   0.4   0.5    BP_RI:  14.0   0.4   0.5


Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\i1profiler_650_on_A4_null_print_v2.icm"
Descr: "650_on_A4_null_print_v2.icm" Ver: 2.1.0   Copyright: "Copyright X-Rite, Inc."
WP:  91.9   2.6  -9.6     BP_PI:  16.8   2.8  -2.1    BP_RI:  16.8   2.8  -2.1

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\i1profiler_650_on_A4_null_print_v4.icm"
Descr: "650_on_A4_null_print.icm" Ver: 4.3.0   Copyright: "Copyright X-Rite, Inc."
WP:  91.9   2.6  -9.7     BP_PI:  16.8   2.8  -2.1    BP_RI:  16.8   2.8  -2.1

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\i1profiler_650_on_A4_psp_print_v2.icm"
Descr: "650_on_A4_psp_print_v2.icm" Ver: 2.1.0   Copyright: "Copyright X-Rite, Inc."
WP:  91.3   2.7  -9.6     BP_PI:  14.0   0.3  -0.4    BP_RI:  14.0   0.3  -0.4

Profile: "C:\WINDOWS\System32\Spool\Drivers\Color\i1profiler_650_on_A4_psp_print_v4.icm"
Descr: "650_on_A4_psp_print_v4.icm" Ver: 4.3.0   Copyright: "Copyright X-Rite, Inc."
WP:  91.3   2.7  -9.7     BP_PI:  14.0   0.3  -0.4    BP_RI:  14.0   0.3  -0.4


One thing that's clear. There is a difference between printing bypassing the plug-in. And the plug-in appears to print darker blacks.

Have you tried printing directly from I1Profiler rather than making the tif then printing it in Photoshop with PSP? It may be that PSP is  needed for best results. Perhaps the driver is different which may well be the case since it processes 16 bit data through the PSP. If so you should always print through PSP.

Aside from that, from earlier results it appears the I1Pro 2 is also higher reading L*  than the CM. You may need to make profiles with the CM or spring for a new I1Pro2.

I've attached an image of the gamut slice at L*=27 for the I1Profiler PSPS v Null. The null trick profile (white outline) is extremely ratty.

I've never seen anything quite like that but the only Canon I have is the 9500II and for some reason PSP does not work with it and Windows at all. Printing directly to the driver from I1Profiler as well as the null trick works perfectly on it as well as on my Epson 9800. This strongly suggests there are different drivers in operation using PSP and printing directly though the driver which is limited to 8 bits by Windows.

Added: I just reviewed Mark Segal's review of the 2000 and he notes that ACPU does a pretty bad job on the 2000 (Unlike other printers) and that Canon confirmed and recommended PSP. ACPU, I1Profiler's direct printing, and the null-trick should all use the same path through the printer. So it does appear there is a difference in drivers and PSP should be preferred.

I've found the null trick most useful in making collages where some of the images were converted using Perceptual while others were Rel. Col. or even Abs (which is useful for plopping in things like an accurate CC image). That can still be done but after converting to printer space the whole thing should be untagged and printed with PSP w/o color management.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 09, 2019, 02:33:32 PM
You should see exactly the same results printing with ACPU (Which is the gold standard for printing w/o CM).

You don't wanna know how poor the targets printed with ACPU really looked! All the gray scale patches are contaminated with some kind of brownish tint... I was even afraid of scanning it!
On a top 3 of visually evaluated targets 1) Canon PSP 2) Null trick printing 3) ACPU 
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 09, 2019, 02:58:45 PM
Dear Doug, yet again, thanks a lot for the effort you've put into shedding some light into this weird story.

Here's a summary of white/black points for the new set of profiles:

The 3 numbers are L*a*b* values in 3 groups. "WP" is the Lab value of unprinted paper. The b* value will be quite negative for papers with high OBA for M0 and especially M2 profiles because of the uV.
BP_PI is the Lab for printed RGB (0,0,0) using Perceptual Intent. It's usually more neutral than the black using Relative Intent.
BP_RI is the printed RGB (0,0,0) without BPC. It's usually the lowest possible L* but may have more chromaticity than Perceptual intent.
The "Descr" is the name of the profile as shown in applications and is not necessarily the same as the profile file name.

Could you please share how / where from (what tool?) do you use to extract all this info? I would like to be able to do it myself and not have to bother you every time! Thanks! ;)

One thing that's clear. There is a difference between printing bypassing the plug-in. And the plug-in appears to print darker blacks.
To me it's 100% clear! At least for the PRO-2000+ series the only valid way to print targets remains through the Canon PSP plugin from PS. Even my "best" profile so far (CM based one) used this approach for the targets printing.

Have you tried printing directly from I1Profiler rather than making the tif then printing it in Photoshop with PSP? It may be that PSP is  needed for best results. Perhaps the driver is different which may well be the case since it processes 16 bit data through the PSP. If so you should always print through PSP.
Despite serious doubts, I will probably try.

Added: I just reviewed Mark Segal's review of the 2000 and he notes that ACPU does a pretty bad job on the 2000 (Unlike other printers) and that Canon confirmed and recommended PSP. ACPU, I1Profiler's direct printing, and the null-trick should all use the same path through the printer. So it does appear there is a difference in drivers and PSP should be preferred.

Aside from that, from earlier results it appears the I1Pro 2 is also higher reading L*  than the CM. You may need to make profiles with the CM or spring for a new I1Pro2.

This hurts! Let's discuss this situation a bit.
The EFI ES-2000 was purchased as new, from ebay, (really only showed like 3 seconds of lamp usage at first usage of i1Diagonstics) and I can hardly believe it's a faulty one. Or maybe I'm just reprieving myself this thought! Could it really be?

A) So basically my old CM is able to both read a higher WP and a lower BP against the i1Pro2, correct?

B) Am I correct to say that based on the metrics you've provided i1Pro2 spectrophotometer looks like it's not coping well with dark tones / blacks?

C) Is the most of the clipping, I am seeing from the created profiles, appear to come in dark violet / dark blues values which happen to fit with the way the gamut it's actually shaped and where the big missing chunk appears, when compared against the Canon's or CM's profiles?

D) I am not exactly sure how much the i1Pro2 metering is deviating since I don't have another one at hand, nor do I have anyone close to me with whom I could double-check using same paper.

E) Is there any more conclusive battery of tests I could run for i1Pro2 in order to prove it's really a faulty copy? I kinda feel I need to check more but I am totally clueless on how/what could I do. Any idea?

F) What should I be doing now? Sell it? Try to send it for factory calibration though I am not sure if I should send it to EFI or X-Rite and I suspect it will cost a small fortune to have it calibrated once again, am I wrong?

Looking forward for your (and others) guidance on this issue!
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 09, 2019, 05:51:57 PM
Dear Doug, yet again, thanks a lot for the effort you've put into shedding some light into this weird story.
I was originally taken aback by the differences between your glossy results from "ArtMakerHighGlossy260" and the later matte like paper as the glossy had pretty low L* (3 ish) while the matte was in the teens. It's now clear that this was just different papers somehow as both the I1Pro2 and CM read reasonably low though the CM was a bit lower.

Quote
Could you please share how / where from (what tool?) do you use to extract all this info? I would like to be able to do it myself and not have to bother you every time! Thanks! ;)

The data I printed out was from a Matlab function I wrote. I use it to quickly check black points on my own profiles but a broader use is to check the performance of various paper/printer combos by downloading their ICC profiles and running them through the function. My use is like this:

ShowProfileStats('Argyll')

It goes through my installed profiles and anything with 'Argyll' in the profile description or file name gets analyzed and printed. I also use it to identify profiles that are incorrectly generated. For instance Epson's canned profiles typically bake in BPC in the Relative Colorimetric tables which has certain negative effects. Especially printing Abs. Col. when I need to print a precise color.
Quote


To me it's 100% clear! At least for the PRO-2000+ series the only valid way to print targets remains through the Canon PSP plugin from PS. Even my "best" profile so far (CM based one) used this approach for the targets printing.
Despite serious doubts, I will probably try.
Not worth it given ACPU gives such bad results. I've looked at the Canon plug-in profiles and it's pretty clear that the plug-in overrides the native print driver. Especially as it also has features to reverse some of the low pass effects that are somewhat intrinsic in print drivers.
Quote

This hurts! Let's discuss this situation a bit.
The EFI ES-2000 was purchased as new, from ebay, (really only showed like 3 seconds of lamp usage at first usage of i1Diagonstics) and I can hardly believe it's a faulty one. Or maybe I'm just reprieving myself this thought! Could it really be?

You might be OK. While the differences seem a bit more than I would expect all spectrophotometers differ somewhat. I'm going to compare the CM and I1P profiles, both using PSP, and seen how they compare with the data I have (an I1P2 and iSis XL 2). I recall there was some differences there but it's been a while so I'm not sure how they compare to your differences. The iSis is similar to the CM in that they both natively use a white LED to create M2 files.

Quote
A) So basically my old CM is able to both read a higher WP and a lower BP against the i1Pro2, correct?

B) Am I correct to say that based on the metrics you've provided i1Pro2 spectrophotometer looks like it's not coping well with dark tones / blacks?

C) Is the most of the clipping, I am seeing from the created profiles, appear to come in dark violet / dark blues values which happen to fit with the way the gamut it's actually shaped and where the big missing chunk appears, when compared against the Canon's or CM's profiles?

D) I am not exactly sure how much the i1Pro2 metering is deviating since I don't have another one at hand, nor do I have anyone close to me with whom I could double-check using same paper.

E) Is there any more conclusive battery of tests I could run for i1Pro2 in order to prove it's really a faulty copy? I kinda feel I need to check more but I am totally clueless on how/what could I do. Any idea?

F) What should I be doing now? Sell it? Try to send it for factory calibration though I am not sure if I should send it to EFI or X-Rite and I suspect it will cost a small fortune to have it calibrated once again, am I wrong?

Looking forward for your (and others) guidance on this issue!

If you're game, I can generate and post test charts. If you print them, let them dry a day or two, I can scan them with the iSis (XRite's high end spectro) and we can find out how close your I1P and CM profiles are to the iSis. I can PM you my mailing address. It might take some time for the mail but it would be interesting. As an aside, I can make a large patch set of profiles from them to make it worth your effort. From my POV the printer you have appears quite good and I may wind up buying the 1000 for my office. The data would help me evaluate the possible upgrade from my 9500 II which is getting long in the tooth. The 9800 has proven a durable and stable beast so I'm unlikely to upgrade it any time soon.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 02:26:40 AM
Well, this is interesting. The ColorMunki profile based on 200 patches is a much closer match to the 650 patch null profile than it is to the PSP.

Algorithm: Use 10,000 random RGB values and convert to Lab values using three profiles. Then make a histogram of the distribution of delta E's between the profiles. This is much more useful than  gamut volume.

CM (200 patch): ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CM
PSP I1Pro: ArtMaker Cristal Luster PSP ARG_SCAN M2
Null I1Pro: ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2

The CM and Null I1Pro are far closer to each other than the two I1Pro profiles. This suggests that the CM target was printed the same way as the I1Pro Null target.

So in this case the largest differences by far were PSP/Null related and not spectro differences. And the CM profile even had far fewer patches!

Something strange is going on and you might be best to focus on the printing process. Make sure you are using identical settings in PSP and that you don't do a printer calibration in between.

I suggest the following things to do apples to apples.

1. Only generate M2 profiles. Comparing CM and I1Pro is only possible with M2.
2. Don't bother generating separate profiles with I1Profiler and Argyll. They produce effectively the same Relative Colorimetric tables.
3. When using PSP, only print using PSP with identical settings.

If you want to explore Null trick, ACPU, or direct printing from I1Profiler, use the same settings by creating a name for the all the settings then make sure you select that name each time you print. It's possible, perhaps likely, that PSP is changing some of the values in the driver beyond just disabling color management.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 10, 2019, 03:51:10 AM
Well, this is interesting. The ColorMunki profile based on 200 patches is a much closer match to the 650 patch null profile than it is to the PSP.

Algorithm: Use 10,000 random RGB values and convert to Lab values using three profiles. Then make a histogram of the distribution of delta E's between the profiles. This is much more useful than  gamut volume.

CM (200 patch): ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CM
PSP I1Pro: ArtMaker Cristal Luster PSP ARG_SCAN M2
Null I1Pro: ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2

Again Doug working his math magic! :)

The CM and Null I1Pro are far closer to each other than the two I1Pro profiles. This suggests that the CM target was printed the same way as the I1Pro Null target.
How I hate to disappoint you... :-[ Prior to this topic I have never used either "null trick" or ACPU! 110% sure that the target for the CM was printed in PSP! The only difference I can think of was that the targets are tiff/16bits (see below for archive reference)
 
So in this case the largest differences by far were PSP/Null related and not spectro differences. And the CM profile even had far fewer patches!
Well... disappointment doubles: CM used 840 patches... I have uploaded the "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g.zip" archive with all the Argyll generated files!

Something strange is going on and you might be best to focus on the printing process. Make sure you are using identical settings in PSP and that you don't do a printer calibration in between.
I'm digging myself a grave to put myself for some rest! :D :D :D

I suggest the following things to do apples to apples.
1. Only generate M2 profiles. Comparing CM and I1Pro is only possible with M2.
2. Don't bother generating separate profiles with I1Profiler and Argyll. They produce effectively the same Relative Colorimetric tables.
3. When using PSP, only print using PSP with identical settings.
Not only am I going to do so but I will screen record the steps to avoid any processing doubts, ok? :)

If you want to explore Null trick, ACPU, or direct printing from I1Profiler, use the same settings by creating a name for the all the settings then make sure you select that name each time you print. It's possible, perhaps likely, that PSP is changing some of the values in the driver beyond just disabling color management.
Btw... there is only one thing that I remember changing ever since I started i1pro2 instead of CM: I have given up using the "preconditioning" step in the targen syntax! Could that be that it induces any change?
I used to have it like:
targen.exe -v -d2 -c CN_PRO-2000_520_PhotoPaperProLuster.icc -e8 -G -g64 -f840 ArtMakerCristaLuster

I will try to use the same preconditioning with the new i1pro2 targets to see if it brings any changes.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 12:42:10 PM
Well... disappointment doubles: CM used 840 patches...

The CM profile I used for that comparison was quite close to the I1Pro2 profile was:"test_target_cm.icm", which was made with 200 patches and has the embedded description: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CM". The I1Pro profile it was close to has the file name:"argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2.icm" and description:"ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2"
[/quote]

Don't change too many things at once. It's now clear from the other thread you started that the basic problem is variation in printer settings using PSP.

Your I1Pro 2 is probably behaving perfectly well.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 10, 2019, 12:54:28 PM
The CM profile I used for that comparison was quite close to the I1Pro2 profile was:"test_target_cm.icm", which was made with 200 patches and has the embedded description: "ArtMaker Cristal Luster 270g CM". The I1Pro profile it was close to has the file name:"argyll_650_on_A4_null_print_M2.icm" and description:"ArtMaker CristalLuster NULL ARG_M2_2_M2"


Don't change too many things at once. It's now clear from the other thread you started that the basic problem is variation in printer settings using PSP.

Your I1Pro 2 is probably behaving perfectly well.

Dear Doug,

I have just posted in the other thread about my latest discovery related to the failure of PS + Canon PSP in printing with COLORMANAGEMNT_OFF.
I am now working on producing a couple of test profiles with the right gamut and almost all flawless.
There are still a couple of thoughts I need to share with you but I have pretty much identified the culprit.

I will get back to you as soon as I'm done with the new profiles to discuss them together. I am sorry I haven't listened to your suggestion of trying to print form i1Profiler with the color management OFF in the printer settings... My bad! :(
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 01:33:39 PM
Dear Doug,

I have just posted in the other thread about my latest discovery related to the failure of PS + Canon PSP in printing with COLORMANAGEMNT_OFF.
I am now working on producing a couple of test profiles with the right gamut and almost all flawless.
There are still a couple of thoughts I need to share with you but I have pretty much identified the culprit.

I will get back to you as soon as I'm done with the new profiles to discuss them together. I am sorry I haven't listened to your suggestion of trying to print form i1Profiler with the color management OFF in the printer settings... My bad! :(

BTW, one of the ONLY ways I know of to cross check a profile AND printer settings is to print an image of a ColorChecker (from bablecolor.com amonst others) using Absolute Colorimetric then spot read the 24 colors with a the same spectro used to create the profile.

My Epson 9800 has tons of settings (color management, head height (paper thickness), vacuum levels, quality, paper type, roll sie, cutter, etc) and I've found some improvement tailoring these for off brand papers. Then I save the setup using a name specific to the configuration and make profiles with targets from the same one. Don't know about the Canon nor how it interacts with PSP. I can't get PSP running on my Windows setup for the 9500 II probably because it's old and Canon hasn't updated it for current Photoshops when using the long-in-the-tooth 9500.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 10, 2019, 03:35:59 PM
BTW, one of the ONLY ways I know of to cross check a profile AND printer settings is to print an image of a ColorChecker (from bablecolor.com amonst others) using Absolute Colorimetric then spot read the 24 colors with a the same spectro used to create the profile.
Will do that for sure to get the "ultimate" peace of mind!

My Epson 9800 has tons of settings (color management, head height (paper thickness), vacuum levels, quality, paper type, roll sie, cutter, etc) and I've found some improvement tailoring these for off brand papers. Then I save the setup using a name specific to the configuration and make profiles with targets from the same one. Don't know about the Canon nor how it interacts with PSP. I can't get PSP running on my Windows setup for the 9500 II probably because it's old and Canon hasn't updated it for current Photoshops when using the long-in-the-tooth 9500.
Yep! It looks like there's no more love for your oldie Canon... :(
https://www.canon-europe.com/printers/inkjet/pixma/professional_photo_printers/print_studio_pro/
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 10, 2019, 04:26:31 PM
I have uploaded the following new profiles, based on the target printing from within i1Profiler with "Color Mode: Color and Color Settings: Matching Off]" in the printer settings.
I1P_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g v2
ARG_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g M2 MQ


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1JAZd45TaIKzA5ZWAG_q_Vw2u9fF-LLV7

Second is Argyll version based on the measurements export from i1Profiler.
As of now I am a bit confused since if I print from PS with Printer is managing colors --> Set in printer settings "Color Mode: Color and Color Settings: Matching Off", the target prints nice but upon scanning in Argyll I get quite a lot of warnings related to Delta >=30+ in some patches. Not sure what exactly could be the problem though! The profile is build but it doesn't look good... You can see it as "ArtMaker_SatinSemiGloss270g_i1p2"

Btw... the paper now is a RC, Satin SemiGloss since I have run out of the previous Luster.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 10, 2019, 07:31:44 PM
Btw... the paper now is a RC, Satin SemiGloss since I have run out of the previous Luster.

Your printer should be printing blacks with L*=3 or so. The fact most all your profiles and datasets are showing L* in the teens indicates you are selecting the wrong paper type which causes the printer to select the wrong ink. Matte ink will produce really bad results on paper designed for PK (glossy, semi-gloss, luster, etc).

You need to focus on getting the correct paper setting.

Print some black patches measure them with the I1Pro2 in spot read mode. I1Profiler and Argyll both have tools to do so. In I1Profiler select "Measure Chart", enter the number of rows/cols and select spot reading mode. Double click on the patch after it's read and you will see a breakdown on the left.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 11, 2019, 03:19:43 AM
Your printer should be printing blacks with L*=3 or so. The fact most all your profiles and datasets are showing L* in the teens indicates you are selecting the wrong paper type which causes the printer to select the wrong ink. Matte ink will produce really bad results on paper designed for PK (glossy, semi-gloss, luster, etc).
You need to focus on getting the correct paper setting.
Let me see if I got this right? When I print from i1Profiler the "Media Type" I should choose for this type of paper I am trying to profile (Satin Semi-Gloss) would be "Canon Satin Photo Paper 240g"... being the closest I could identify to mine, correct?

As for this 2 specific profiles I've created I am not sure what paper I've chosen and it could have been not the right choice.
Btw...  there is also a thick-box in i1Profiler, Measurement area, called Paper Information... could that too, if wrongly chosen, impact the quality of the profile, specifically the L* for blacks? 

Print some black patches measure them with the I1Pro2 in spot read mode. I1Profiler and Argyll both have tools to do so. In I1Profiler select "Measure Chart", enter the number of rows/cols and select spot reading mode. Double click on the patch after it's read and you will see a breakdown on the left.
Will do! ;) Now I'm more in control so I should be able to progress faster in profiles quality... ;)
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 12, 2019, 10:42:55 AM
Let me see if I got this right? When I print from i1Profiler the "Media Type" I should choose for this type of paper I am trying to profile (Satin Semi-Gloss) would be "Canon Satin Photo Paper 240g"... being the closest I could identify to mine, correct?

Yes
Quote


As for this 2 specific profiles I've created I am not sure what paper I've chosen and it could have been not the right choice.
Btw...  there is also a thick-box in i1Profiler, Measurement area, called Paper Information... could that too, if wrongly chosen, impact the quality of the profile, specifically the L* for blacks? 
Will do! ;) Now I'm more in control so I should be able to progress faster in profiles quality... ;)

The "Paper Information" in I1Profiler's measurement area has no effect on anything. It's just informational when you save the workflow.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 12, 2019, 10:46:40 AM
Yes
The "Paper Information" in I1Profiler's measurement area has no effect on anything. It's just informational when you save the workflow.

Good to know, thanks! ;)

Btw... looking forward for having you on board the Canon ship too! :) I just hope you'll not be disappointed with the PRO-1000 weird ink wastage behavior (cleaning cycles related) that has already made it "famous"!
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 12, 2019, 12:09:17 PM
Vic,

Your last 3 profiles are much better:

ArtMaker_SatinSemiGloss270g_i1p2.icm
P_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g v2.icm
ARG_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g M2 MQ.icm

All look pretty decent with low L* consistent with PK (glossy) black ink.

One has quite a bit of uV, Another is targeted for the Spectrolino? Two are Argyll profiles and the other an I1Profiler.

All the gamuts look decent. However, best to use only M2 profiles. This provides the most consistency and lets you check color using both the I1Pro2 and CM.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: vikcious on February 12, 2019, 12:28:35 PM
Vic,

Your last 3 profiles are much better:

ArtMaker_SatinSemiGloss270g_i1p2.icm
P_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g v2.icm
ARG_AMK_650_SatinSemiGloss270g M2 MQ.icm

All look pretty decent with low L* consistent with PK (glossy) black ink.

Indeed I have reached the point where I am happy with the overall quality of the profiles. Right now the reported gamut is always on par or superior to the original Canon profile, for similar paper, and this is the first time this happens.

One has quite a bit of uV, Another is targeted for the Spectrolino? Two are Argyll profiles and the other an I1Profiler.

That "Spectrolino" is what Argyll is wrongly adding to the "TARGET_INSTRUMENT" when converting the CGATS from i1Profiler.  Nothing to worry.

All the gamuts look decent. However, best to use only M2 profiles. This provides the most consistency and lets you check color using both the I1Pro2 and CM.
Dear Doug,

I think that we can conclude that, once the target printing mystery has been somehow solved /me happy with the results I'm currently getting, the profile comparison between CM and i1Pro2 is no longer relevant.
Again, your help and advice have been priceless and really guided me a lot through this Canon PSP mess and I thank you.
Anyway I am really curious and eager to see your input once you get your new Canon baby!
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 12, 2019, 01:21:18 PM
That "Spectrolino" is what Argyll is wrongly adding to the "TARGET_INSTRUMENT" when converting the CGATS from i1Profiler.  Nothing to worry.

The issue is rather subtle. Argyll will interpret spectra based on the instrument that recorded the data and over the years there has been some variation between models. Tagging CGATs from I1Profiler with something other than the I1P can cause the spectrum to be interpreted slightly differently. These are very minor effects but was one of the reasons for XRite standardizing on XRGA. In any case it's close to a negligible effect.

Congrats on getting a handle on your printing color management. Normally, I would not jump in on such a panoply of printer issues. Especially a printer I don't have or am not familiar with. In this case it was a printer type I have been considering purchasing for some time after reading Mark's detailed review. That and your facility with Argyll and command line processes kept me interested.

Best wishes printing.
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: GWGill on February 12, 2019, 06:53:03 PM
The issue is rather subtle. Argyll will interpret spectra based on the instrument that recorded the data and over the years there has been some variation between models. Tagging CGATs from I1Profiler with something other than the I1P can cause the spectrum to be interpreted slightly differently. These are very minor effects but was one of the reasons for XRite standardizing on XRGA. In any case it's close to a negligible effect.
Traditionally Argyll uses the instrument values just as they are. For consistency, I did not changes that when I added XRGA support (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/XRGA.html) (all the measurement tools default to "Native").
Importing from .txt CGATs formats perhaps could be smarter - I'm not attempting to parse X-Rites instrument and XRGA information. You can work around this manually for imported files using spec2cie, which will allow you to do arbitrary XRGA conversions. (Building this into txt2ti3 would make it simpler).
Title: Re: Severe gamut reduction in profiles Colormunki vs i1Pro2 in ArgyllCMS
Post by: Doug Gray on February 13, 2019, 12:54:42 AM
Traditionally Argyll uses the instrument values just as they are. For consistency, I did not changes that when I added XRGA support (http://www.argyllcms.com/doc/XRGA.html) (all the measurement tools default to "Native").
Importing from .txt CGATs formats perhaps could be smarter - I'm not attempting to parse X-Rites instrument and XRGA information. You can work around this manually for imported files using spec2cie, which will allow you to do arbitrary XRGA conversions. (Building this into txt2ti3 would make it simpler).
Thanks Graeme. Good to know. So the tag is, in Vic's workflow, informational only.

I did notice, back in 2017, an average difference of about 1.0 dE00 in patches read from the I1Pro 2 in M2 and the iSis 2 in M2. I chalked it up to the age of the I1Pro2. OTOH, it's not inconsistent with X-Rite's published data on spectro differences.

These are all minor effects for most purposes.