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Author Topic: Shoot film in addition to Digital and what to buy? Canon, Nikon, Contax, Hassy..  (Read 1399 times)

kevs

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Question: I have the Canon Mark 2, will eventually upgrade to the 5 or the next mirrorless. (medium format digital bit too expensive right now...) Still, I thinking, maybe for a coming up fine art project, (no client), envorinmental portraits,  I'll shoot a bit of film too. I'm curious if others would bother with film at this point.

Or don't bother? (I think something about getting at least one film roll on top of the unlimited digital would be kind of cool. But maybe I'm wrong..

If so.. I'm open to Canon, Nikon, Contax, Hasseblad systems.. It's a buyers market comparatively from the past. One can always resell it later right? At not too much of a loss. Ideas/ recommendations please. Thanks.

No large format though. I bought some old Sinar 4x5s, learned it all, and it was just way to much work/ bulk.
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Two23

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I shoot 4x5 for my paid portrait work.  Here's what you're missing.  I have a selection of lenses from all eras of photography including a set of eight lenses from the 1840s -1850s, a couple from the 1880s, five from 1905-1925, one from 1947, and five from 1990-2000.  Lenses from each era have their own signature.  And it's more than lenses.  I can choose from color film (Portra 160,) B&W film (FP4,) and now glass plates (dry plates.)  More than that even--I am planning on getting into wet plate this year to use with my most ancient lenses.  A 4x5 is many times more versatile than any of the systems you are looking at.  Those are really pretty limited to very similar lenses (all post War) and no way to shoot glass plates of any kind.  The best portrait lenses of all time are:  Petzval, Heliar, Kodak Commercial Ektar.  These were all made pre-war and have uncoated glass.  That gives them a very special low contrast, soft look you just aren't going to get with post war coated lenses.  The Ektar and Heliar can also be found with coated glass, once again showing just how versatile 4x5 is. :)  As for bulk, my Chamonix 4x5 weighs less and fits into a smaller bag than my Nikon D800E.  As for work, like most things in life you get back what you put into it.


Kent in SD
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 07:55:20 pm by Two23 »
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kevs

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Great post Two.
Question, do you also shoot digital?  I am going digital for the core volume of shots, and maybe I buy a new film system.  This post is probably ideal for the digital shooters who think one should or should not bother then with film too.

4x5 the heavy type is out. I just did that! (Got 2 Sinards and big Gitzo tripod, and holders, black cloth, difficult to focus...)  Hired someone to teach me it all, too heavy, and cumbersome, can't take it.. But maybe... if there is a 4x5 system recommended that is fabulous quality and super easy to deal with and handheld...

Probably more likely.. old Canon, Nikon, Leico, or light and easy medium format-- maybe a great film point and shoot exist? Don't know...  I'm not a tripod guy honestly.

Great story about lenses..
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Two23

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I think I mentioned I also shoot a Nikon D800E.  I did weddings & portraits with it for about six years, using state of art lenses.  Still will do family portraits with digital but I get paid more when shooting film and now glass plates.  People are really intrigued by the glass plates and Civil War era lenses. :)   My Chamonix 045n with yummy c.1922 Heliar weighs 3 lb 12 oz; my Nikon D800E with Sigma lens weighs 4 lb 5 oz.  I own/owned cameras made from 1880 to 2016 and honestly, my Chamonix is my favorite of all time.  It's beautiful!  Hand crafted walnut wood, carbon fiber, titanium.  I love this camera!  There are downsides, of course.  It's a slower work flow and not a good choice for photo'ing young children.  Unless you process and scan your own film (I do), it would take about a week for most people to get the negatives back (might be true for any film though.)  The upsides are what I mentioned above--ability to use lenses and film/plates from any era going back to 1840. 

I wouldn't bother with 35mm.  It just doesn't capture enough detail.  I do own a 1942 Leica IIIc with 1940s lenses 28/50/90mm and a Nikon F3T wtih AiS lenses 28/50/105mm.  Nice, but not my choice for portraits.  I once shot a few weddings with a Hassleblad 501cm with metered prism but a Hassy system is going to cost you two to three thousand $$.  A better value would be a Bronica ETRSi 645 or maybe Pentax/Mommamia 645 with metered prism.  A 645 gives a neg x2.5 of 35mm.  The cameras are relatively small and you can get interchangeable backs.  Lenses are sharp.  All multicoated of course, but for me that just means shots will all have the same basic look.  The 4x5 gives me tons more choices, at the cost of speed.  If you want something unique to try, I suggest a vintage 1904-1930s Kodak Brownie No. 2.  Honest, I do!  These have a single element uncoated meniscus lens, 50mm equivalent, and make a huge 6x9cm negative.  On something like Ilford HP4+ these give a very classic looking family portrait.  One shutter speed (1/30s), three lens apertures (f11, 16, 32).  No flash sync.  Another great choice for less $$ to try is the classic Kodak Medalist II.  It too is 6x9 with a Heliar type lens, coated.  Yet another choice is a Voigtlander Bessa 3 with multicoated Heliar lens, 6x9 format, 105mm lens (equivalent to 50mm.)  The Heliar is my all time favorite for portraits, and were popular with professional photographers for nearly 80 years.


Kent in SD
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kevs

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Thanks Two, ah, did not see you have the Dlsr. But the Chamonix 4x5 look gorgeous, but the weight is not the thing then I guess.. it's the grueling tripod, film loading, upside down focusing.. too much for me now...

The Bronica ETRSi 645 or maybe Pentax/Mommamia 645  --  How would results from these compare to modern Canon Dlsr I have or will get?

I actually own the Vintage Brown 50th Anniversary Kodak Brownie Box Camera ! I bough it just to show in the house. Never thought of shooting with it. How can I test it would work?  Does BH sell film for it?  6x9 is same as Mamiya RZ film? Ah, but can't tap into my Profoto flash system? I'm doing indoor environmental portraits.

Medalist look very cool, but not wide angle, and when all said and done I'm not sure it will surpass what could blow up from a Canon Mark D 4 no?  Whereas a Nikon/ Canon slr might not blow up huge but could have "look" of film and is easy to deal with- no tripod, will use Profoto lights..  Of course some here may debate you can get that look now in Photoshop filters, Nik, Alien Skin etc... Yet at least with 35, you can have some chromes and say you shot film!

Another coincidence, I did buy an Agfa PB 20 readyset,  that looks just like the Voigtlander Bessa 3. Never considered shooting with it.. or know it works. 
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Two23

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1.The Bronica ETRSi 645 or maybe Pentax/Mommamia 645  --  How would results from these compare to modern Canon Dlsr I have or will get?

2. I actually own the Vintage Brown 50th Anniversary Kodak Brownie Box Camera ! I bough it just to show in the house. Never thought of shooting with it. How can I test it would work?  Does BH sell film for it?  6x9 is same as Mamiya RZ film? Ah, but can't tap into my Profoto flash system? I'm doing indoor environmental portraits.

3. Medalist look very cool, but not wide angle, and when all said and done I'm not sure it will surpass what could blow up from a Canon Mark D 4 no?  Whereas a Nikon/ Canon slr might not blow up huge but could have "look" of film and is easy to deal with- no tripod, will use Profoto lights..  Of course some here may debate you can get that look now in Photoshop filters, Nik, Alien Skin etc... Yet at least with 35, you can have some chromes and say you shot film!

4. Another coincidence, I did buy an Agfa PB 20 readyset,  that looks just like the Voigtlander Bessa 3. Never considered shooting with it.. or know it works.


1.  There are two ways to think about this.  The DSLR gives cleaner files and will be a bigger enlargement.  OTOH, the film cameras will give a very different look from what everybody is doing.  Lower contrast, softer, more "classic."  You can get away with not using a tripod with 645, but I pretty much use a tripod for everything.  Another thing I'll mention about 645 is they use leaf shutter, not focal plane.  They give you flash sync at any speed, including 1/500s. :)  That makes it easier to overpower ambient (i.e. daylight.)

2. Brownie came in several different sizes.  If your camera takes "No. 2 Brownie film," that's 120 and it's very available in C41, E6, and B&W.  For color protrait I really like Portra 160.  For B&W my favorite is FP4+.  Both give a very soft, pastel sort of look.  If you open the camera look inside for a sticker that tells you the film size.  What's not generally available is film for any of the "A" Brownies, such as 3A, 2A.  The 2A takes 116 roll film, very spotty supply and expensive.  E6 (chromes) generally don't scan well.  C41 and B&W do.  67RZ/RB is 6x7cm format--not quite as long as 6x9cm.  Might be better for portraits but if you think a 4x5 is heavy......... :D :o :D

3. The deal with the Medalist is the lens--a Heliar design.  I'll post a couple of images shot with a Heliar.  I've not seen any software that can replicate the look of uncoated pre-war lenses because they have a different lens signature than modern coated Plasmat designs.  Really, it's the slight imperfections that draw me to film.  Too often digital just looks too sterile.

4. The Agfa PB20 is probably from the 1930s.  It takes 620 roll film, 6x9 format.  It's available but a bit expensive.  The 620 is really just 120 film rolled onto a smaller spool--620.  In the early 1930s Kodak got pissed that everyone was making 120 film, so they designed a spool with a smaller diameter and tiny bit longer, and then started making their cameras that could only take this new spool size (includes the Medalist--I forgot.)  Agfa then begain making making film to fit those cameras too. :D  You can buy empty 620 spools and then simply roll 120 film onto them (in the dark of course,) but this is probably more hassle than you want to deal with.  If you want to try the Agfa out for fun, PM me and I'll walk you through it.

I will add there are a couple of other cameras for you to consider.  Bronica also made a 645 rangefinder, the Bronica RF.  Very nice camera and much sought after.  They go for a premium price on ebay.
https://www.thephoblographer.com/2015/04/13/three-medium-format-film-rangefinder-cameras-we-love/

https://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/03/medium-format-buyers-guide-pt-3-rangefinders/

I use a c.1937 Voigtlander Bessa RF as my travel camera (I always take a film camera along on trips, b&w film.)  It has a 105mm Heliar and makes great classic looking photos. :D  Shots below are from that camera.  Color shot was made with a 150mm Heliar (normal lens for 4x5) on my Chamonix using Portra 400.  Note the soft look.  It's quite unlike anything you'll see from a digital camera.  I used lens movements to square everything up.

Kent in SD
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 11:31:41 pm by Two23 »
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kevs

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Thanks Two, question:

1-So even with 35mm film, that could be cool as one would get real film looks?  (which would enable me to shoot easily with old Nikon and with Canon even with all my EF lenses.)

2- Bronica 645- how is quality compared to the Bronica rangefinder you mention vs.Contax 645, or Pentax 6x7 (which is cool and can be handheld with grip), or Mamiya 6 or 7 rangefinders?.  And what think of Leica 3m 35mm?  All these apart from the Leica, would resolve you think even better than current  Canon 30-50 pixel Dlsrs?

3- But then, have you experimented with Alien Skin, in PS.. can't real film just be recreated well now with digital filters in PS?

4- Where does one get Brownie film? Is there a way to know the camera works before trying?  Mine looks like this one: 
https://www.etsy.com/listing/605746492/vintage-brown-50th-anniversary-kodak?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-other&utm_custom1=51f90d7d-bdbf-4aaf-b7c4-1202589f986c&utm_content=go_270949235_21143577635_69017157155_pla-106551393635_c__605746492&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIw-WRg9mF4AIVgz9pCh0QrQJwEAQYAiABEgLFO_D_BwE

5- Oh, so Medalist will be hard to get film and get processed?  Yeah, I'll pass on the Agfa then.. done going into the dark for now! Maybe change mind later...


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Paulo Bizarro

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Get a Canon, you already have the lenses.

kevs

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Paulo, yes still may do that. May even get a Nikon old 35 system for fun, not sure yet.. Not mutually exclusive. Yeah, Canon 3, 1 could take all my lenses, nice...

Two: forget all this ties into idea/ trend in fine art of "alternative processes". A gallery owner mentioned in seminar that this is the hip thing now..
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Rob C

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You should get more intimate with wet processes before you buy anything; if you do, you can answer your own questions. Also, before you choose any format, you really are throwing your money away unless you have a clear idea of the final size of your prints.

Simply asking people questions without apparently even having worked out your own ultimate needs by yourself is no way to fly.

The end product is where you should begin your thought processes.

Rob

Rob C

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Thanks Rob, wet process, you mean in darkroom?  I've spent  a lot of time in darkrooms (since 70's), not going back in, thanks.

The end product can be 11/14 prints to prints (not that many) 60" or more on side.


In that case, with all that experience, you should have no problem answering you own format question, just as I suggested.

:-)

Two23

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Thanks Two, question:

1-So even with 35mm film, that could be cool as one would get real film looks?  (which would enable me to shoot easily with old Nikon and with Canon even with all my EF lenses.)

2- Bronica 645- how is quality compared to the Bronica rangefinder you mention vs.Contax 645, or Pentax 6x7 (which is cool and can be handheld with grip), or Mamiya 6 or 7 rangefinders?.  And what think of Leica 3m 35mm?  All these apart from the Leica, would resolve you think even better than current  Canon 30-50 pixel Dlsrs?

3- But then, have you experimented with Alien Skin, in PS.. can't real film just be recreated well now with digital filters in PS?

4- Where does one get Brownie film? Is there a way to know the camera works before trying?  Mine looks like this one: 
https://www.etsy.com/listing/605746492/vintage-brown-50th-anniversary-kodak?gpla=1&gao=1&&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=shopping_us_c-home_and_living-home_decor-other&utm_custom1=51f90d7d-bdbf-4aaf-b7c4-1202589f986c&utm_content=go_270949235_21143577635_69017157155_pla-106551393635_c__605746492&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIw-WRg9mF4AIVgz9pCh0QrQJwEAQYAiABEgLFO_D_BwE

5- Oh, so Medalist will be hard to get film and get processed?  Yeah, I'll pass on the Agfa then.. done going into the dark for now! Maybe change mind later...


1. Keep in mind that a lot of the "look" comes from the lenses.  I generally only shoot b&w with film, and use Portra when shooting color.  If I wanted high contrast, saturated color I just use my D800E and Sigma lenses.

2. They are all about the same.  Remember, these are all cameras/lenses designed for full time professionals.  All have multicoated lenses and all use a very similar lens formula.  Have seen something like a Pentax 67 in person?  They are huge!  And heavy.  The reason the Mamiya 7 and Bronica RF bring so much $$ on ebay is they are small, have in-camera meters, and are high quality.  I'd love to have either but so far collecting lenses from the 1840s and getting into glass plates has been eating up my camera budget. ;D   I also own and use a c.1942 Leica IIIc with Leica 28/35/50/90mm screw mount lenses from the 1940s.  Single coated.  It's a very small camera and fun to use BUT it's a pain to load film into, and remember with these cameras you need a small handheld light meter.  I do like the image quality from the Leica lenses.  None of the film cameras will resolve like a Nikon D850 etc. until you get to 5x7 format.  And really, you're thinking about this all wrong.  I don't shoot film because of "image quality," but rather "qualities of the image."  I'm after a totally different look than what everyone else is doing.  I also like the slower, contemplative experience.  With my Chamonix 4x5 (or c.1925 Gundlach Korona 5x7) if I take five shots it's been a busy day.  BUT, my keeper rate is 75-100%. :)  My philosophy is if I can take just five super, real grabber shots per year--not merely "very good", I'm quite happy.

3. I have no experience with the software.  However, I can tell every time when some is trying to pass off a digital photo as one made in the 19th century.  Replicating a photo from the 1990s I might not be able to tell, partly because the lenses are the same or similar.

4.  Brownie No. 2 film is nothing more than common 120.  I get mine from B&H, Freestyle, Adorama, Blue Moon--really any camera store that sells film will have it.  For use in a Brownie I'd stick to ISO 50 (Ilford Pan F) or ISO 100.

5. Any place that processes film can process 620 film since it's nothing more than common 120 on a different spool.


I shoot film and glass plates for several reason.  One--it's a lot of fun.  The cameras I typically use are completely manual--I make all decisions.  That's forced me to think things through.  Two, I love ancient photo gear!  I often wonder who the owners were for the past ~150 years and what sort of photos the lenses took.  Three, I'm off on my own path, not doing what the rest of the herd is doing.  Four, I just like the classic look I get.  I don't worry about "resolution", "sharpness," and other measurements.  That's not the goal.  My goal is to create interesting photos that have people saying, "Wow, that's cool!"  There are subjects I would not use antique cameras for--birds, wildlife, motorcycle races, sports, rodeos, etc.  For those I use either a D800E or a D500.  For taking photos abandoned buildings, landscapes, portraits, travel, and especially "street" etc. the older film cameras work very well.  I use film and digital for different subjects and different reasons.  Below photos are some I just don't think you could replicate with software.  They were shot on glass plates using a Derogy Petzval lens made in 1858, or a Voigtlander Petzval made in 1847.  Last shot was made with c.1983 Nikon F3T and HP5.


Kent in SD
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Two23

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If you're talking about prints that are 5 ft. enlargements, rule out 35mm and 120.  A 4x5 is the bare minimum and I'd want 8x10.  And drum scanned.  You are talking really big bucks to make prints that size.  It's a totally different animal from something like an 8x10 or even 16x20.


Kent in SD
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leuallen

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I would nix the Bronica ETRSi 645 and get the slightly larger square format version SQA instead. I had the ETRSi and quickly got rid of it. Turning for verticals killed it, flash bracket involved. Much preferred choosing h/v after the shot.

Also have a Bronica GS645 Professional. A rangefinder camera. This is a folding camera with a normal lens. Very small, fits in a jacket pocket. Smaller than 35mm cameras. Very sharp. 120-220 film. The normal orientation is a vertical format which is strange at first. The 645 format did not bother me so much as no flash bracket was involved and size was paramount for this type of camera. Very lightly used as my film days were drawing to a close. Just looked at it first time in 10 years. Pretty clean except I cannot seem to get the film back open. May be stuck due to time or I do not know the secret code.

Larry
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 03:17:07 pm by leuallen »
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kevs

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Great post Kent.
For my Brownie, it's 620 or 120?  and is there a way to know/ test it's working, loads ok/ no light leaks before buying film?

Oh.. BTW a recent great seminar, by prominent gallery owner did say big trend is alternative processes, and I think a lot of what you are doing would qualify.

I was really thinking of buying the Mamiya 7, but then realized, I just bought the $2700 Canon 11-24, I'm going to get the next version of 5d series (another 3k) when that comes out... so to drop another $3500 on Mamiya system, I may pass for now. Also KEH sales guy today agreed that for printing large.. up to 60" etc, the digital 35mm with 30 mb pixels or more should look as good as 6x7 film. But I hear what you are saying, not about resolving power for you.

For Mayima I would have no need for meter, I use handheld meters, but I would love lightness of it..

But.. when I was in Icon printing in LA, the printer there said he has seen 35mm digital print out to 60" on par with 4x5 film...(if you want to believe that or not..)

Glass plates, that is in darkroom or while shooting?

I'm a history major so I concur with all that..
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kevs

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Nice post Larry, interesting. When I google Bronica GS645 , everything that comes up says Fuji GS645 !

How is quality of these two vs each other and vs say Mamiya 7 or RZ?

Love the smallness of them.. like Mamiya 7, not as crazy expensive...
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Telecaster

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Nice post Larry, interesting. When I google Bronica GS645 , everything that comes up says Fuji GS645 !

The Bronica is the RF645. Came out around 2000. Frames vertically when held "horizonally," which takes getting used to. Very nice camera, though. My friend Bruce had one for awhile. The Fuji GS645 is a nice one too.

Personally I'd start with an inexpensive Canon EF-mount film camera and see if you enjoy working with film. Then move up to 645 or larger if desired.

-Dave- (redundant sig removed)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 04:54:45 pm by Telecaster »
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Two23

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Great post Kent.
1. For my Brownie, it's 620 or 120?  and is there a way to know/ test it's working, loads ok/ no light leaks before buying film?

2. Oh.. BTW a recent great seminar, by prominent gallery owner did say big trend is alternative processes, and I think a lot of what you are doing would qualify.

3. I was really thinking of buying the Mamiya 7, but then realized, I just bought the $2700 Canon 11-24, I'm going to get the next version of 5d series (another 3k) when that comes out... so to drop another $3500 on Mamiya system, I may pass for now. Also KEH sales guy today agreed that for printing large.. up to 60" etc, the digital 35mm with 30 mb pixels or more should look as good as 6x7 film. But I hear what you are saying, not about resolving power for you.

4. For Mayima I would have no need for meter, I use handheld meters, but I would love lightness of it..

5. But.. when I was in Icon printing in LA, the printer there said he has seen 35mm digital print out to 60" on par with 4x5 film...(if you want to believe that or not..)

6. Glass plates, that is in darkroom or while shooting?


1. If it's a Brownie No. 2 (which is what you linked a photo to,) it will be 120 film.  Open the back of the camera, look for writing on the inside of the door.  It will tell you what kind of film.  Anything other B2 or 120 (same thing) will be difficult to find.  BUT.....you can use 120 film in something like a 2A (which takes 116 film) with a DIY adapter.  If there is an empty spool inside your camera (generally is) measure the length.  If it's 2.5 inches, it's 120.

2. Yes.  The people who are REALLY into it are on largeformatphotographyforum.com   I'm relatively new to non-film media.

3. Consider buying something like the Fuji GS645.  They are fairly small, easy to use.  Great optics, takes 120 film.  Buy one from ebay, try it, learn it, and resell it this summer and try something else if you didn't like it.  This time of year used gear prices are at low ebb.  In early summer they are at high point.  I generally even make a little money doing this.  Simple camera, will tell you if you're on the right track or not.  Buy a roll of Ilford Pan F if you'll use a tripod, otherwise a roll of Ilford FP4+, a roll of Kodak TMAX 400, and a roll of Kodak Portra 160.  Three different flavors, see which one you like best.  The GS645 has a fixed lens but it will be a great combo of relatively cheap and great quality.

4. Mamiya 7 is a premium model but there's also Mamiya 6 for less $$.

5. As a shooter of 35mm, 120, 4x5, and 5x7 I do not believe it.  Not even if the 35mm negs are drum scanned. An 11x14 is pushing it for 35mm print at normal viewing distance.

6. They are 4x5 (and also 5x7.)  Same size as film, but instead of being on film the emulsion is on glass.  (Dry plates.)  Shoots like film, processes pretty much like film.  And there's another MAJOR difference.  Film has an anti-halonation coating.  Glass plates (wet or dry) does not.  Light comes in from the lens, strikes the emulsion, and 90% exits through the rear surface of the glass.  The other 10% hits that back surface of the glass plate and reflects BACK through the emulsion.  This creates a faint halo around the subjects and is one of the ways I can tell immediately if someone is trying to pass off a digital photo as one from the 19th century.  It's a very unique look.


Kent in SD 
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kevs

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Thanks Kent, I undid the two gold clips on Brownie, but the two sections wont come apart. I don't want to pull too hard, but normal pull, nothing happens.

Jiggles 1/16 inch, but wont come apart.

You don't think new 35 digitals that are 40 - 50mb resolve to print as good as film 645s?

How is lens quality of the Fuji 645 vs Mamiya 6/7?
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Two23

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OK, try this.  To find out if your heart is really in it, figure out if your Brownie takes 120 film, as I instructed above.  Or post a few photos of it.  Does your camera work?  There is a little lever on the right side, down low near the edge.  Push it either up or down.  If you hear it go "shhh-click", works.  Next, look into the viewfinders.  They are tiny and squinty but if not dirty you should make out an image on them.  Mirrors can be cleaned by pulling of the front of the camera (faceplate) and GENTLY cleaning them with a wet (water only!) q-tip and then drying with a dry one.  Replace cover.  Buy a roll of Ilford FP4+, one of Portra 160 from B&H or maybe even a local full service camera store.  Stay with ISO 50 to 125.  Load camera in subdued light--like indoors or in the shade.  I suggest putting a piece of black tape over the red window after winding the film to -1- to keep direct sun from hitting it.  Raise the tape in the shade to wind to next frame.  Meter using Sunny 16.  The Brownie has a little lift up silver strip on the top front.  This strip has three holes in it.  The biggest hole is f16.  The middle hole is f22.  The small one is f32.  The shutter speed is 1/30s, but camera can also be used in bulb mode for night shots by flipping another lever.  Shutter is rotary, so push the shutter lever up, camera fires.  Push it back down, it fires again.  Here's a link to Brownies in general:
https://www.brownie-camera.com/index.shtml

Here's a link to a video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT1epnCyg78


Using a Brownie is all about creativity, not "resolution," sharpness, saturation, etc.


Kent in SD
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