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Author Topic: Print color frustration  (Read 4685 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2019, 07:49:54 pm »

I agree - and put some further thoughts in bold below for ease of distinction.

In order to print anything in PS, you have to find and open it and load it into memory. In LR you can select one or hundreds of images and click "Print" and all will be printed.
In order to print anything in PS, you have to first render the raws before you can even start with #1 above. In LR, the rendering takes place as one prints. Select and print. Important to add that this rendering happens on the fly and doesn't stick, so you still are left with a much more economical raw file in terms of storage, unless you intended to export a rendered version for keeps.
In Photoshop, if you want output specific edits, you have to soft proof and create the edits on layers (if you're smart), and do so for each output device. In LR, you build Proof Copies, something you don't seem to be aware of: they take up NO space, they contain only the output specific edits. The soft proof is memorized as is the rendering intent as this affects what you see of course. AND the output specific edits are all stored with metadata that takes up on space [Assuming you meant "no" space!]
In the Print module, the edits and rendering intent is honored.
In the Print module, you can build as many print presets as you wish (again, virtually no space taken up) which saves EVERY print parameter including size of paper, paper type and all the stuff mentioned above so you can again, select any number of images, raw or otherwise and make a print exactly as the preset defines. That simply isn't possible in Photoshop.[I would add to this in LR in the Custom Package Layout Style you can put together any manner of composite you want and then save the whole thing as a "Saved Print", so you don't need to recreate the layout next time you want more copies of it. It's very "RIP-like" in this aspect of its feature set, which is nice
The soft proofing in Develop is much better visually in LR than PS if for anything else, how the bkgnd is not as white as the GUI (the surround is grayed back if so set). To get this in Photoshop, you need to work in Full Screen mode.
LR provides adaptive print output sharpening! Based on the image size and output resolution AND the capture sharpening applied to the original; raw or rendered.. PS requires you do this on each image manually. [I'd go further just to note that the whole sharpening workflow in LR not only works very well, but only uses several bytes of meta data, whereas to replicate this in PS non-destructively you need to do at least two levels of sharpening on separate layers and file size grows like topsy.
LRs Print module provides info such as page bleed, margins and gutters, dimensions on-screen. PS doesn't.
LR provides options for automate Rotate to Fit and Fill. PS doesn't.
LR provides metadata overlays ON the printed output you can select or even the users Identify plate. PS requires you manually type that in using a Type Layer.
Further, LR provides page options on the print (Page number, crop marks and page info).
You want to gang up 6 images on one page. Maybe the same size, maybe different sizes on one page You can build as many Print Packages or Custom Packages, again with all the preset stuff mentioned above. In Photoshop you have to open each document, size it, move it into a canvas etc. ANYONE making such packages will find LR to be vastly faster and superior than PS!
There is simply no comparison between what one can do in LR's print module vs. Photoshop which from day one has and continues to be a 'one image at a time' workflow. LR isn't.
I'm probably forgetting more features of the module and hopefully if so, others will chime in. Again, IF you print more than a few images per month, let alone week or day, LR's print module is worth the price of admission.[Yes, since the time LR introduced soft-proofing it became the go-to Print vehicle]
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2019, 07:53:17 pm »

But now, reverting to the OP's original problem, colour mismatch between screen and print in respect of a range of should-be yellows that are tinged with green, the more I think about this, the more I think it could be a profiling issue that only impacts certain parts of the colour spectrum and this particular image happens to be one so affected. I'd like to hear more from the OP about what paper and profile is being used.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mdijb

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2019, 08:03:31 pm »

I have this sequence before.  No one has an answer to my problem.  The explanations have been diverted to another separate issue with prejudices attached, and resulted in heated exchanges that do not answer my original question.

If no one has an answer, that's ok but let's keep on topic.

The problem and argument is NOT about the goodness of LR ans a printing tool, it about a specific printing problem that has nothing to do with LR being a good tool or not.

MDIJB
« Last Edit: January 20, 2019, 08:10:27 pm by mdijb »
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digitaldog

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2019, 08:09:03 pm »

I have this sequence before.  No one has an answer to my problem.  The explanations have been diverted to another separate issue with prejudices attached, and resulted in heated exchanges that do not answer my original question.

If no one has an answer, that's ok but let's keep on topic.

MDIJB
Ideally we could get a raw (DNG) WITH the LR edits for analysis.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2019, 08:29:04 pm »

I have this sequence before.  No one has an answer to my problem.  The explanations have been diverted to another separate issue with prejudices attached, and resulted in heated exchanges that do not answer my original question.

If no one has an answer, that's ok but let's keep on topic.

The problem and argument is NOT about the goodness of LR ans a printing tool, it about a specific printing problem that has nothing to do with LR being a good tool or not.

MDIJB

Thanks for the scolding, but I thought Reply 21 was very much on topic.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2019, 09:45:07 pm »

This is really quite interesting, except for the fact that the OP still hasn't received what might be a possible answer to his initial query.  With what I thought was a rather innocent statement on my part I seem to have kindled a barrage of fellow forum members who are trying to convince me that LR is indeed much superior to PS in every way, including printing.  To many it probably is exactly that, but since I was of the belief that this was a democracy I stepped up and voiced an opinion.  Actually that's not quite true.  For me it is not an opinion at all, it is fact for my way of working and printing images.  If that leaves me behind, so be it, but my very picky customers love the work I do and keep coming back for more of the same.  There may come the day when I will develop the urge to change, in which case I might fire up LR again and spend most of my time hiding in the print module.  I might eventually prove myself wrong as well, but until that time arrives I shall continue printing from PS.  I know the rest of you good folks will definitely not do so, but oddly enough that doesn't bother me at all, and I would never try to steer you in any other direction.

"For the variety of work I do I find Photoshop to be faster for printing."  Do you really find this sentence so revolting as to sidetrack the OPs initial question?  He is correct, it was not about the app, it was about the rather strange results.  I would still like an answer from the OP to my two questions.  I'm probably the only one who believes my questions were valid, but they did have meaning for me.

Let's get back on track.  You know, the one I apparently derailed.  My apologies.

Gary
         
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:25:15 am by Garnick »
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Gary N.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2019, 09:52:59 pm »

Yes, the O/P's question hasn't been answered and it remains a free world at least to the extent that everyone is free to use their own printing method and big brother will not be watching you. As they used to say on Air Farce "Chacun a son gout". (Sorry, that's a Canadian insider joke you need a bit of French to appreciate.) So, getting back to the OP's question, both Andrew and I have asked him to produce some data that could be analytically useful. So far we have received a scolding for wandering OT, but nothing else. I'm in no panic and have no vested interest in it one way or another, so whenever our O/P decides to make it possible to be of further assistance, will come back in if I have anything useful to say.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2019, 09:53:32 pm »

"For the variety of work I do I find Photoshop to be faster for printing."  Do you really find this sentence so revolting as to sidetrack the OPs initial question? 
I don't find it revolting, but I think providing data about the differences IN PRINTING between the two applications is appropriate to comment on and further, some of us are trying to help the OP and with the specific software product he's reported he uses FOR printing. He isn't using Photoshop from what saw but LR. So let's not get sidetracked about printing from Photoshop OK?
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Garnick

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2019, 08:46:45 am »

Yes, the O/P's question hasn't been answered and it remains a free world at least to the extent that everyone is free to use their own printing method and big brother will not be watching you. As they used to say on Air Farce "Chacun a son gout". (Sorry, that's a Canadian insider joke you need a bit of French to appreciate.) So, getting back to the OP's question, both Andrew and I have asked him to produce some data that could be analytically useful. So far we have received a scolding for wandering OT, but nothing else. I'm in no panic and have no vested interest in it one way or another, so whenever our O/P decides to make it possible to be of further assistance, will come back in if I have anything useful to say.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for putting my mind at ease.  I can now continue working, knowing that the "evil eye" will not be lingering.  Now, in case anyone is ready to pile on again, that was meant as a humorous reply to Marks ever eloquent "big brother" reference.  Now on to better things, although not necessarily better in reference to the initial question posed by the OP.  I believe we have all tried to illicit more in depth information from the OP concerning this rather strange situation with the image he has printed.  It does seem that the OP has decided to give up on us and not bother to give us the proper information from which we might perhaps find a fix for his particular situation.  Therefore, I too will check in occasionally to perhaps find more info coming along to help.

However, having said all of that, I do believe that Andrew answered the OPs question rather succinctly in Reply#4, given the information the OP had offered at that time, which really hasn't been added to in any fruitful way as this thread has progressed. 

Gary 
 

 
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Gary N.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2019, 09:04:10 am »

Yes, Andrew's suggestion is analytically useful because it would help determine whether the problem is generic or on account of some particularity of the O/P's specific photo that the colour management system isn't coping with. That would be a useful start to an analytical procedure for determining cause.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mdijb

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2019, 09:19:36 am »

A low rez  copy of the proof copy is attached in my original posting.

There some OOG colors, especially the yellows, but the areas of OOG that appear on the screen do not correspond well to the areas of green discoloration in the print.

Again, I have printed many other images which have some OOG colors, because I like intense colors, without problems,  but not this one.

MDIJB
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2019, 09:24:35 am »

A low rez  copy of the proof copy is attached in my original posting.

There some OOG colors, especially the yellows, but the areas of OOG that appear on the screen do not correspond well to the areas of green discoloration in the print.

Again, I have printed many other images which have some OOG colors, because I like intense colors, without problems,  but not this one.

MDIJB

Yes, you have told us all that already, and we suggested some diagnostic steps and provision of further information, all of which you appear to be ignoring. Speaking for myself, I need to bow out of this for the time being because absent more data to work with I can't offer anything more that would be useful to you.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2019, 10:58:01 am »

A low rez  copy of the proof copy is attached in my original posting.

There some OOG colors, especially the yellows, but the areas of OOG that appear on the screen do not correspond well to the areas of green discoloration in the print.

Again, I have printed many other images which have some OOG colors, because I like intense colors, without problems,  but not this one.

MDIJB


I will ask this question once again.  Of course it's your prerogative to not answer it, which I will understand and abide of course.  I do have a reason for this question. What adjustments did you apply to reach the "Proof Copy" in LR.  A rather straight forward question I believe, but if it's not clear please let me know and I'll try to reword it.

Gary
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 11:07:21 am by Garnick »
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Gary N.
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digitaldog

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2019, 11:06:20 am »

A low rez  copy of the proof copy is attached in my original posting.
Kind of useless and the reason you were asked for the raw with edit instructions. If you can't provide that's fine. We can't assist. Your call.
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mdijb

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2019, 11:31:40 am »

Here is the Original Raw fule.  I used a day into night process but did not keep all the exact steps I took.  What I can recall is an approximation as follows

LR-> large ^ in Contrast and ^shadows-> Large Decrease in Highlights-> added a significant curves-> White balance change->HSL adjustments_. transfer to photshop for additional work.

Here is a link to the video I watched to achieve this look        https://jamesb.com/subscriber-perks/

The final result is what I posted i my original posting

MDIJB
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digitaldog

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2019, 11:33:20 am »

Here is the Original Raw fule. 
Is it a DNG with all the edits backed in with a preview? Do you know how to do this?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2019, 11:50:36 am »

Here is the Original Raw fule.  I used a day into night process but did not keep all the exact steps I took.  What I can recall is an approximation as follows

LR-> large ^ in Contrast and ^shadows-> Large Decrease in Highlights-> added a significant curves-> White balance change->HSL adjustments_. transfer to photshop for additional work.

Here is a link to the video I watched to achieve this look        https://jamesb.com/subscriber-perks/

The final result is what I posted i my original posting

MDIJB

Thanks for the link to the video made by Jamesb. Between Photoshop and Lightroom, that procedure involves a large number of really huge tone and colour adjustments. In these conditions, the first thing that comes to mind is that it is creating a lot of out of gamut colour that the printer profile is having a hard time representing either in softproof or on paper. This is a hypothesis which we can test by running the final image through ColorThink Pro. If I were to do this I would need a flattened version of the final product out of Photoshop, as well as the ICC printer profile you are using. The image is probaby too large to convey over this website. If you would like me to do such a test on it please send me a PM and I shall provide you with instructions for sending the image file and the profile.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Garnick

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2019, 12:00:29 pm »

Here is the Original Raw fule.  I used a day into night process but did not keep all the exact steps I took.  What I can recall is an approximation as follows

LR-> large ^ in Contrast and ^shadows-> Large Decrease in Highlights-> added a significant curves-> White balance change->HSL adjustments_. transfer to photshop for additional work.

Here is a link to the video I watched to achieve this look        https://jamesb.com/subscriber-perks/

The final result is what I posted i my original posting

MDIJB

OK, quite a departure from the adjusted file, which is quite alright of course.  Once you had the effect you wanted, did you then add any further adjustments for printing, or did you print directly from the Print Proof image that you included in your first post?  Personally I've never seen a situation like this that was strictly due to OOG colours.  I'm not saying it couldn't happen, only that I have my doubts.  In my opinion, if OOG colours are the culprit it's the most serious example I've ever encountered.

EDIT -- Once again I've jumped in on Marks latest offering, both writing at the same time obviously.  Mark, I hope the OP does send the file and perhaps you can track down the cause(s) for this problem.  That would be yet another lesson, one that would be very useful as well.
 
Gary   
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 12:10:24 pm by Garnick »
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Gary N.
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mdijb

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2019, 12:34:50 pm »

I replied earlierlier but for some reason it does not appear so I am sending again.

I did find the file and have attached screenshots showing what changes I made.  The file was then sent to photoshop for more work.

I printed on a Breathing color metallic paper and used their profile.  I added a subltle curve adjustment, added a little clarity and move the white slider gently to the right.

For Mark--how do I send you a private message so I can send you the file?

MDIJB

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Print color frustration
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2019, 12:47:54 pm »

Oh boy, if we're dealing with metallic paper that's a whole other kettle of (possibly rotten) fish! Profiles can have a real hard time with this kind of paper, which only reinforces my view that the problem could well be somewhere between the image file colours and the ICC profile gamut and gamut shape. We can do a fair bit of analysis on this.

MDIJB: I shall send you a personal message through this site with further instructions.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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