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Author Topic: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues  (Read 12941 times)

Ray

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2019, 09:27:03 am »

I notice that DXOMark have at long last released their test results for the Z6 and Z7. The results are surprising. At the nominated ISOs of 200 (in practice a bit lower, such as ISO 140 or 150), the Z7 has at least 2/3rds of a stop lower dynamic range than the Nikon D850. Above ISO 200 the DR is about the same for both cameras. Below ISO 200, the DR still favours the D850.

The results for the Z6 are even more puzzling. At the nominated ISO of 800, the DR of the Z6 is about 1/2 stop better than its own DR at ISO 400. In other words, if you're concerned about noise in the shadows and are using an ISO setting of 400 that allows an ETTR shot at the appropriate shutter speed for the scene at the appropriate aperture, then increasing ISO to 800 whilst doubling the shutter speed to avoid blowing the highlights, will result in noticeably less noise in the shadows.

Also, at ISO 800 and above, the DR of the 24 mp Z6 is around 2/3rds to 1/2 a stop better than both the D810 and Z7, which are 45 mp cameras. If this was DR at the pixel level, it would make more sense, but it's 'downsized' DR at equal print size.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-Z7-versus-Nikon-Z6-versus-Nikon-D850___1270_1269_1177
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KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2019, 02:26:02 pm »

On the Z7 I can't seem to get Electronic First Curtain setting to stick - Enabled - when adding to user settings U2. When I turn the camera off and then restart it reverts back to Electronic First Curtain - Disabled.

TIA
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 02:42:15 pm by KLaban »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2019, 03:46:36 pm »

That DXOMark data right around ISO 200 almost looks like a measurement error? Photons to Photos shows no sign of the dip around ISO 200 in the Z7's DR. In the Photons to Photos data, the Z7 and D850 are right on top of each other at every ISO (as they should be - it's pretty much the same sensor).

Usually, DXO just looks like a shifted version of Photons to Photos - they have different noise thresholds, so DXO consistently comes up with something like a stop and a half more DR on every camera (the difference varies a bit by resolution, perhaps because of DXO's downsizing), but the curve shapes are the same.

In the case of the Z7/D850, they're within a couple tenths of a stop of each other (within measurement error) at every ISO in the Photons to Photos data, but the Z7 has a 2/3 stop dip right around ISO 200 in DXO's data...
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KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2019, 04:57:55 pm »

On the Z7 I can't seem to get Electronic First Curtain setting to stick - Enabled - when adding to user settings U2. When I turn the camera off and then restart it reverts back to Electronic First Curtain - Disabled.

TIA

Perseverance pays.

Done!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2019, 06:00:22 pm »

Looks like we’ll get the eye AF + raw video firmware on 16-May.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ray

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2019, 06:42:19 pm »

That DXOMark data right around ISO 200 almost looks like a measurement error? Photons to Photos shows no sign of the dip around ISO 200 in the Z7's DR. In the Photons to Photos data, the Z7 and D850 are right on top of each other at every ISO (as they should be - it's pretty much the same sensor).

Usually, DXO just looks like a shifted version of Photons to Photos - they have different noise thresholds, so DXO consistently comes up with something like a stop and a half more DR on every camera (the difference varies a bit by resolution, perhaps because of DXO's downsizing), but the curve shapes are the same.

In the case of the Z7/D850, they're within a couple tenths of a stop of each other (within measurement error) at every ISO in the Photons to Photos data, but the Z7 has a 2/3 stop dip right around ISO 200 in DXO's data...

I doubt that DXO would publish something of this nature if it were an error, because it is such an obvious deviation from the usual trend in DR graphs. The DXO team are experienced scientists. They would surely notice the anomaly and recheck the data before publishing.

The more likely explanation, as you've mentioned, is the difference in the noise thresholds that are considered to be relevant for the average photographer. 'Photon to Photos' apparently exclude the DR data below a certain threshold which they consider to be photographically irrelevant (ie. not nice), so they are applying a subjective element.

DXOMark give you the full 'Engineering Dynamic Range', which I prefer because sometimes I want to see the detail in the noisy shadows.
The knowledge that the deep shadows at ISO 400 (with the Z7) will be just as detailed as the same deep shadows in an ISO 200 shot using half the shutter speed, could be useful in certain circumstances.

Of course, the ISO 200 shot will have better SNR at 18%, so that is always a consideration. However, when one makes a decision to use ISO 400 instead of ISO 200 it is presumably because one considers the shutter speed at ISO 200 to be too slow for an optimally sharp image, and one is prepared to sacrifice potentially lower noise for the sake of a potentially sharper image. The knowledge that deep shadow detail will not be affected, with the Z7, could result in one using ISO 400 more often, resulting in a greater number of sharper images.

It would be interesting if someone who owns a Z7 could do a comparison at ISO 200 and 400, shooting a scene with an exceptionally high DR, then raising the shadows in ACR and Photoshop.
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KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2019, 11:11:39 am »

What RAW software are folks here using with the Z NEF files?

Preferably I'd like to use Adobe Photoshop CC - using CS6 at the moment - but there are known conflicts between this and Dreamweaver CS6 on the same machine and I'm not about to pay for both. Anyone here running both successfully? Perhaps this is a question I need to ask of the RAW software section here?

I've tried Nikon Capture NX-D but it's not to my liking. I particularly dislike working with images against a black background.

Anyone here using DXO Photolab 2?

So many questions.
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routlaw

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2019, 12:32:09 pm »

Thus far I have been using either Lightroom Classic CC or PS CC 2019. My version of PS CS6 will not open the Z7 RAW files. While I think Capture NX-D does a decent job of converting the files the user interface as well as the slow speed are terrible. I've been of the opinion for many years Nikon should get out of the software business and let other companies deal with this end of the equation.

That said many people believe Capture One is the be all end all, I'm not one of those.

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faberryman

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2019, 12:52:25 pm »

I've been of the opinion for many years Nikon should get out of the software business and let other companies deal with this end of the equation.
Nikon needs to offer some software to demosaic its RAW files without having to buy a third party program. It is doing the minimum possible and so meeting its obligation.

jeremyrh

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2019, 02:55:52 pm »


Anyone here using DXO Photolab 2?


I think Bernard has been having good experience with this.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2019, 07:31:22 pm »

I think Bernard has been having good experience with this.

Indeed.
- best lens distorsion correction
- best noise reduction
- U-points are the best solution for local corrections.
- their film emulation solution is great for B&W conversions

Colors used to be soso but they have improved that a lot.

The UI is also quite decent.


Cheers,
Bernard

KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2019, 03:23:37 am »

Indeed.
- best lens distorsion correction
- best noise reduction
- U-points are the best solution for local corrections.
- their film emulation solution is great for B&W conversions

Colors used to be soso but they have improved that a lot.

The UI is also quite decent.


Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, thanks, I'll probably download the free trial and give it a go.
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John Camp

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2019, 11:56:39 am »

Bernard, thanks, I'll probably download the free trial and give it a go.

If you do, come back with your experience. I'd be particularly interested in your time investment in learning the system.

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KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2019, 12:58:54 pm »

If you do, come back with your experience. I'd be particularly interested in your time investment in learning the system.

John, I actually managed to get Photoshop CC and Dreamweaver working on the same computer without problem which was a relief. Given that this was my initial preference and a workflow that I've been using for many years it has effectively freed up my time investment towards learning the Nikon Z menu system and testing the camera. The process and transition has thus far been comparatively pain free, rewarding and enjoyable. The mere though of having to change to completely different hardware and software systems at the same time filled me with horror. At least I have one constant.

 
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Chairman Bill

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2019, 03:31:02 pm »

If you do, come back with your experience. I'd be particularly interested in your time investment in learning the system.

I've been trying it alongside the newest C1 iteration. I've used C1 from version 8 up to 10 and decided to try Photolab2 before upgrading to C1 v.12. I quite like it though I can't get over the fact that it's easier to work with the Nik suite from C1 than DxO. That makes no sense at all. Now, if DxO enabled the Nik software to be accessed as an 'Edit with' option or as a plug-in, I might just decide on Photolab2 rather than C1 v.12

armand

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2019, 03:41:47 pm »

If you do, come back with your experience. I'd be particularly interested in your time investment in learning the system.

+1

I used DxO long time ago, when lens corrections were not that great in the mainstream software. Then they only raised prices for new stuff without offering that much.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2019, 04:26:34 pm »

Thus far I have been using either Lightroom Classic CC or PS CC 2019. My version of PS CS6 will not open the Z7 RAW files.
Correct.  the old stand alone PS & LR cannot be updated to support Z RAW files.  Also as I found out, Windows 8.1 cannot be used as an OS as Adobe found a conflict with one of the installed DLLs and won't fix it so you have to be running Win 10 (Adobe says that Win 7 also works) with the LR/PS CC combinations.
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KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2019, 04:46:13 pm »

Correct.  the old stand alone PS & LR cannot be updated to support Z RAW files.  Also as I found out, Windows 8.1 cannot be used as an OS as Adobe found a conflict with one of the installed DLLs and won't fix it so you have to be running Win 10 (Adobe says that Win 7 also works) with the LR/PS CC combinations.

Windows 7 certainly works with Lightroom Classic CC and Photoshop CC although one or two newer features such as 'Enhance Details Feature' do need Windows 10.
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faberryman

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2019, 05:57:00 pm »

Windows 7 certainly works with Lightroom Classic CC and Photoshop CC although one or two newer features such as 'Enhance Details Feature' do need Windows 10.
Lightroom Classic stuck at Release 7.5 unless you update to the latest version of Windows 10.

KLaban

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Re: Nikon Z 6 & Z 7 Comments and Issues
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2019, 02:54:23 am »

Lightroom Classic stuck at Release 7.5 unless you update to the latest version of Windows 10.

Thanks.

But for me this is academic as I never use Lightroom.
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