Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience  (Read 3421 times)

biswas_arup

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« on: December 20, 2018, 12:09:18 am »

I first bought ImagePrint 9, years ago, by seeing the claim on Luminous Landscape web site, that Imageprint ICC profiles are better than the vendor provided ones using the printer driver. I was quite happy with it for all these years using it on my Epson large format printers (first Epson 7900 and then Epson SC p-7000).

Last week I had to replace my 16 month old Epson SC p-7000 printer for stubborn printhead clog (that's another pathetic story :-() with a Canon PRO-2000 printer. So far I have been very happy with the printer. I think the Canon Printer is way ahead in terms of precision, sophistication, ethical design and customer support!

Anyways, sorry about the digression. Next step was printing Bill Atkinson printer targets with Imageprint ICC profile on my paper of choice for printing, Canson Infinity Platine Fiber Rag paper. I also compared it with the ICC profile provided by Canson with the media settings file. I am little disappointed to report that Canson ICC profile for that paper-printer combination is better than the Imageprint ICC profile. After running many tests of printing using both ICC profiles, here are the summarry of my observations, so others can benefit from my experience:

1. The Imagprint profile-printed target is  little inferior to Canson profile-printed target in terms of:
- saturation in red
- skin tones

2. Imageprint profile on Epson is still slightly better than Imageprint profile on Canon in terms of:
- satuaration in red

3. However, Imageprint profile on Canon is slightly better in gray tone seperation than Canson profile

I contacted Colorbyte technical support team and they were very prompt in their reply. I found out that Imageprint profiles were generated after calibrating the Canon printer with Canon Photo Glossy 170 gsm paper. So, all canon PRO-2000/4000 users, who want to use Imageprint profile, must re-calibrate their printer using that photo paper.

After recalibrating my printer with the above paper, the print targets look slightly improved. But, the above observations still hold true.

I challenged Colorbyte to generate an ICC profile that is better than the Canson ICC profile. If they accept the challenge and provide me a better profile, I would be happy to update this thread. Until then, I would continue using Canson proviedd ICC profile.
Logged

Majohnson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 03:00:56 am »

Thank you for the write up. I just sold my Epson P5000 and am considering trying the Canon 2000 next. I like you use Canson Platine and also Canon Baryta, Rag Photographique 310 and Edition Etching. Have you had it long enough yet to judge ink consumption compared to the Epson?
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2018, 09:00:18 am »

Digression: Did you sell the P5000 because you were unhappy with it, or is it just a move to wider format?
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

biswas_arup

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2018, 11:12:35 am »

Thank you for the write up. I just sold my Epson P5000 and am considering trying the Canon 2000 next. I like you use Canson Platine and also Canon Baryta, Rag Photographique 310 and Edition Etching. Have you had it long enough yet to judge ink consumption compared to the Epson?

I have not compared the ink consumptions. But, Canon provides a nice utility called Accounting  Manager that gives you a breakup in ink  and paper consumptions for each job. It also calculates the cost of the job in terms of the material used. Though mine shows the cost field as "***". I think I need to configure something for the cost field to be displayed.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2018, 11:25:23 am »

I have not compared the ink consumptions. But, Canon provides a nice utility called Accounting  Manager that gives you a breakup in ink  and paper consumptions for each job. It also calculates the cost of the job in terms of the material used. Though mine shows the cost field as "***". I think I need to configure something for the cost field to be displayed.

Yes, you need to enter the costs of the ink cartridges and the papers for it to be able to calculate job cost. Please note this data does not include ink used for printer maintenance, except for the CO used to sweep the platen which is included.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

biswas_arup

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2018, 11:33:08 am »

Yes, you need to enter the costs of the ink cartridges and the papers for it to be able to calculate job cost. Please note this data does not include ink used for printer maintenance, except for the CO used to sweep the platen which is included.

Ah! Makes sense. Thanks for the reply,, Mark! BTW, I owe a summary post of my Epson SC-p7000 printhead clog thread. I would do that after the holidays. Trying to keep the spirit up during this season!
Logged

John Caldwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 701
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2018, 12:13:45 pm »

Have never used Q Image with our Canon, Epson or HP machines as it was Windows-only, at one time I believe. I did know that Q Image is really nice printing software.

As we did with our Epson machines, we had custom ICC profiles made for the Canon Prograf 4000 and the results are really good. Since I only print on a handful of papers, the costs of profiling were quite modest. I happen to use a firm in Rochester NY known as Booksmart Studio for the profiles. 100% of my printing is done from Lightroom, as it's been since LR version 1.

My back-of-napkin ink economy calculations are that the Canon 4000 uses very little ink by comparison to what I was used to with the Epson 9900 or 4900, but I think that's a property of the ink making it to the page, rather than to the Maintenance Tank. My experience only, of course.

John Caldwell
Pittsburgh, PA

Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2018, 12:22:17 pm »

I've come to a landing that the only way of really knowing how much ink these machines use for all purposes is by the inventory approach: total ink in minus total ink out adjusted for inventory divided by square footage printed. Requires really good record keeping. Have you attempted such a comparative exercise between your various Epson and Canon models?
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

John Caldwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 701
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2018, 06:29:49 pm »

I've come to a landing that the only way of really knowing how much ink these machines use for all purposes is by the inventory approach: total ink in minus total ink out adjusted for inventory divided by square footage printed. Requires really good record keeping. Have you attempted such a comparative exercise between your various Epson and Canon models?

No. I'm just relived to not be doing head cleanings. So I'm in that Close Enough For Government Work phase of the experience: Measure it with a micrometer. Mark it with chalk. Cut it with an axe.

I'm an incredibly undisciplined observer when it comes to how much ink got to paper with the Epson machines. I can comfortably say that no more than 50% of my ink made it to paper. Others have differing experience, naturally.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2018, 08:30:26 pm »

No. I'm just relived to not be doing head cleanings. ...........

That's right. The printer is doing them for you. Different people have different views about which technology uses more for maintenance and the companies firmly resist any transparency on this matter.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Ethan Hansen

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 132
    • Dry Creek Photo
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2018, 09:38:03 pm »

I looked at several Canson profiles. They used i1Profiler with a 1728 patch target. This isn't an optimal layout for i1Profiler which makes sense why you are seeing better grayscale behavior with Imageprint. I have not mucked about with IP for years, so my memory of their profiling setup is neither current nor sharp. How many patches does IP use for profiling? That may explain the differences in saturated color handling between the profiles.

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 10:08:03 pm »

I looked at several Canson profiles. They used i1Profiler with a 1728 patch target. This isn't an optimal layout for i1Profiler which makes sense why you are seeing better grayscale behavior with Imageprint. I have not mucked about with IP for years, so my memory of their profiling setup is neither current nor sharp. How many patches does IP use for profiling? That may explain the differences in saturated color handling between the profiles.

I don't use ImagePrint either, but I am familiar with the company and have discussed their products with them. It isn't only profiling - they've re-engineered the whole process of printing right down to the ink dots. Recall they bypass the OEM driver. So there could be several reasons why their results would differ from OEM profiles.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

biswas_arup

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2018, 12:57:46 am »

I looked at several Canson profiles. They used i1Profiler with a 1728 patch target. This isn't an optimal layout for i1Profiler which makes sense why you are seeing better grayscale behavior with Imageprint. I have not mucked about with IP for years, so my memory of their profiling setup is neither current nor sharp. How many patches does IP use for profiling? That may explain the differences in saturated color handling between the profiles.

I don't know about IP's profile generation setup. But, I was very impressed with their profile for Epson large format printers. So, I don't know why their Canon profiles are not as good. One thing Canon does differently than Epson is that their AM1X media settings file controls ink behavior in addition to feed control. Canson provides special AM1X file specific to each paper. So, the ICC profile in conjunction with Canson paper media settings control the printing. Imageprint, on the other hand, uses a Canon paper as the media settings, which may not completely match with the inking behavior required for  the Canson paper. Anyways, Imageprint is looking into the issue. They might produce a better ICC profile.
Logged

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2018, 02:49:08 am »

It's possible that Canon's additional settings file (so far, I've seen them for Canon OEM papers, as well as for the Canson papers, but not for non-Canson art papers) is doing some of the ink and feed control that makes ImagePrint special on Epson printers. I'm not sure it's possible to load a custom media settings file into an Epson printer without bypassing the driver (I'm not sure it's not, either - but I've never seen a profile that includes a media type settings file - they all use an Epson media type).
Logged

Ryan Mack

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153
    • Ryan Mack on Facebook
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 05:53:36 am »

I don't use ImagePrint either, but I am familiar with the company and have discussed their products with them. It isn't only profiling - they've re-engineered the whole process of printing right down to the ink dots. Recall they bypass the OEM driver. So there could be several reasons why their results would differ from OEM profiles.

For Canon printers they still use the OEM driver. They also donít yet support greeyscale profiles although they have been promising support is coming soon for the last 12 months or more.
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2018, 08:01:28 am »

For Canon printers they still use the OEM driver. They also donít yet support greeyscale profiles although they have been promising support is coming soon for the last 12 months or more.

OK, my information dates from about a year before they started supporting Canon printers and therefore refers only to Epson printers. Thanks for the clarification re Canon.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Majohnson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 32
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2018, 05:26:53 pm »

Digression: Did you sell the P5000 because you were unhappy with it, or is it just a move to wider format?

Hi Mark. I thoroughly enjoyed using the P5000 and very happy with the prints. The reason for the change is as you suggest, I am after something larger and having never tried Canon thought I might give them a try. I always enjoy trying new products.

Regards
Mark
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 05:30:49 pm by Majohnson »
Logged

Mark D Segal

  • Contributor
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12510
    • http://www.markdsegal.com
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2018, 05:54:03 pm »

Hi Mark - I think you'll enjoy the Pro-2000. Really well thought-out design and functionality delivering fine prints.
Logged
Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 978
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2018, 01:08:34 am »

ImagePrint is still using the Canon driver on Canon printers? Then, what's it really doing? Its claim to fame has always been three things, as I understood it:

1.) Really good profiles (still valid even if using the Canon driver, but at least one user here wasn't impressed with how well they profile Canons).

2.) Custom media setup (Canon's Media Configuration Tool does this natively, and some art papers, notably Canson, come with prebuilt media files that are much better than "try to match a Canon paper").

3.) A custom driver that supposedly has much better resizing and screening algorithms than the standard driver (apparently not in Canon's case).

Without the custom driver, if you're using Lightroom (which you probably already have), QImage (a fraction of the price of ImagePrint), or something else comparable to make sure the file is sent at the printer's preferred resolution, and you are using a custom media type from Canson (or somebody else - paper manufacturers will catch on), the only real advantage of ImagePrint is the profiles - and if those are nothing special, you could get a lot of custom profiles made for the price of ImagePrint (or buy a profiling setup).



Logged

Ryan Mack

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 153
    • Ryan Mack on Facebook
Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2018, 06:02:28 am »

In theory they are working on an improved b&w system for canon although it hasnít shipped yet. Beyond that itís main advantage for me is the familiar and consistent interface across the canon and Epson printers.


Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up