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Author Topic: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience  (Read 2772 times)

Ryan Mack

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2019, 10:41:16 am »

MT when you installed he Canson media type did you do both steps: install the media type in the printer and then pull it from the printer into the driver? That second step confused me when I was new to the printer.
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MT

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2019, 10:46:38 am »

MT when you installed he Canson media type did you do both steps: install the media type in the printer and then pull it from the printer into the driver? That second step confused me when I was new to the printer.

I did, first of all current version of software asks on its own do you want to do it after you made changes, and I did follow up on my own anyway, to do it manually, only to receive prompt that data are same and no update is needed.
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MT

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2019, 10:47:48 am »

Just out of curiosity. What is the base media paper type that Canson uses in it's am1x settings? You can check that with the Canon Media Configuration tool.

something something Fine Art Textured, I'm not at home atm can't check, but I remember the difference was it had Textured on the end.
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enduser

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2019, 09:09:45 pm »

One thing I find very useful is the Qimage layout system which once you've got, say, six or so prints laid out, for each one you can assign a different color profile.
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Panagiotis

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #44 on: January 30, 2019, 06:51:26 am »

One thing I find very useful is the Qimage layout system which once you've got, say, six or so prints laid out, for each one you can assign a different color profile.

How do you use this feature? I ask because the printer driver is set up the same for all the files and also the paper is the same for all the files. So why two or more different icc profiles? Maybe one optimized for BW and the other for color?
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #45 on: January 30, 2019, 10:24:41 am »

You can have multiple profiles with slight variations for the same paper that may work better for different colors. Either because you use different color profile creation settings or because you use profiling targets that focus mostly on the colors in the individual image.
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Rand47

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #46 on: January 30, 2019, 10:57:01 am »

I am thinking of getting  custom profile(s) built for comparison. Could I ask you which profile service did you use for the custom profiles?

I have had Andrew Rodney (The Digital Dog) make all my custom ICC Profiles.  They are excellent, and noticeably better than Epsonís, Ilfordís and Cansonís stock profiles.  Highly recommended.

http://digitaldog.net/services.html

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

Panagiotis

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #47 on: January 31, 2019, 01:12:33 am »

You can have multiple profiles with slight variations for the same paper that may work better for different colors. Either because you use different color profile creation settings or because you use profiling targets that focus mostly on the colors in the individual image.

I got it thanks. I just printed a test image twice with two different rendering intents at once. Useful.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2019, 03:59:11 am by Panagiotis »
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biswas_arup

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2019, 05:39:24 pm »

I first bought ImagePrint 9, years ago, by seeing the claim on Luminous Landscape web site, that Imageprint ICC profiles are better than the vendor provided ones using the printer driver. I was quite happy with it for all these years using it on my Epson large format printers (first Epson 7900 and then Epson SC p-7000).

Last week I had to replace my 16 month old Epson SC p-7000 printer for stubborn printhead clog (that's another pathetic story :-() with a Canon PRO-2000 printer. So far I have been very happy with the printer. I think the Canon Printer is way ahead in terms of precision, sophistication, ethical design and customer support!

Anyways, sorry about the digression. Next step was printing Bill Atkinson printer targets with Imageprint ICC profile on my paper of choice for printing, Canson Infinity Platine Fiber Rag paper. I also compared it with the ICC profile provided by Canson with the media settings file. I am little disappointed to report that Canson ICC profile for that paper-printer combination is better than the Imageprint ICC profile. After running many tests of printing using both ICC profiles, here are the summarry of my observations, so others can benefit from my experience:

1. The Imagprint profile-printed target is  little inferior to Canson profile-printed target in terms of:
- saturation in red
- skin tones

2. Imageprint profile on Epson is still slightly better than Imageprint profile on Canon in terms of:
- satuaration in red

3. However, Imageprint profile on Canon is slightly better in gray tone seperation than Canson profile

I contacted Colorbyte technical support team and they were very prompt in their reply. I found out that Imageprint profiles were generated after calibrating the Canon printer with Canon Photo Glossy 170 gsm paper. So, all canon PRO-2000/4000 users, who want to use Imageprint profile, must re-calibrate their printer using that photo paper.

After recalibrating my printer with the above paper, the print targets look slightly improved. But, the above observations still hold true.

I challenged Colorbyte to generate an ICC profile that is better than the Canson ICC profile. If they accept the challenge and provide me a better profile, I would be happy to update this thread. Until then, I would continue using Canson proviedd ICC profile.

An Update on this issue. I had been working with ColorByte on this issue and sent them test targets printed with ImagePrint and Canson Profiles for their comparison. ColorByte technical support has been very responsive with this issue. I had couple of issues with ImagePrint:

1. Saturation in Red was higher in the Canson Profile print
2. Skin tone in Canson looked better than Imageprint.

Here is how ColorByte responded to it:

"Your print does look extremely close to what we get here.  That was a bit surprising because in [our] judgement our print was the better one compared to the Canon driver print you sent.

The Canon driver's print is slightly more saturated for some landscapes and objects than the ImagePrint print--but slightly over-saturated for skin tones -- and across the board it lacks tonal separation and shadow detail of ImagePrint's output.

One area we took a very close look at was the strawberries.  A good section of the colors here are out of gamut in both profiles so neither reproduction can be 100% accurate.  (And when bringing out-of-gamut color into gamut thereís always going to be some subjectivity).  Our color management engine tends to favor preserving the tonal separation when bringing colors into gamut which can result in a bit less saturation compared to the Canon driver's method which is clearly favoring loss of tonal separation and bumping saturation. In our experience that latter method leads to blocked shadows throughout the image and a tendency to oversaturate.   

In these areas of subjectivity you may prefer some things with the driver profile -- but they do come at an expense.  In that regard, if I were to evaluate both prints not side-by-side but on their own merit, there are areas in the Canon print (like the loss of detail) which would be actually problematic--not just a subjective difference.  There is no such areas in the print made with ImagePrint and thatís how we engineer our color management components.

I realize this is a generalized test, but when printing images of varying keys and out-of-gamut components as a group using one overall setting, there will always be sacrifices made to the potential reproductive quality of each component.  For example, I personally would never print a high key image with the same shadow point that I use with a low key image. I would instead change the shadow point slider from our default value to a lower one to boost the saturation on the images where it was needed, while leaving others alone or even increasing the shadow point slightly to bring out more shadow detail.  One of ImagePrintís key values as a printing application is that it is made to allow you to adjust things like this on an image by image basis quickly and without having to edit the image.

In this case, simply bringing our shadow slider down to 1 while using Perceptual rendering (to avoid clipping of those out of gamut colors) brings that red strawberry much closer to the Canon level of saturation while still maintaining more shadow separation than the Canon print and keeping the skin tones correct. That  will give you a print that gives you the saturation you want without the compromises the Canon driver is making regarding tonality so Iíd recommend giving that a try and let us know what you think."

After this response from ColorByte, I re-printed the test target with the shadow slider brought down to 1. Now, the ImagePrint test target looks very close to Canson. So, apparently the shadow point has a corelation with color reproduction of out of gamut colors. This is good to know! For now, I will go back to using my ImagePrint application.
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biswas_arup

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Re: Image Print 10 for Canon PRO-2000: personal experience
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2019, 03:16:10 pm »

I should add anothetr piece of observation on this topic for the benifit of other readers. So far I had been comparing Imageprint profile with the paper vendor provided profiles, like Canson and Hahnemuelle. I was interested in finding out how does Imageprint profile compare  with a custom profile made for my printer. Some time back I ordered a custom profile form Phil Cruse in UK. After receiving it I printed the same Bill Atkinson target using the custom profile and compared it with the prints from the Canson and Imageprint profile. Here is the summary of my observations:

Canson vs. Custom ICC profile


- Custom profile has more accurate skin tone than Canson
- Custom profile has better color saturation than Canson
- Custom profile has tiny bit better shadow seperation than Canson

Imageprint vs. Custom ICC profile

- Custom profile has more accurate skin tone than Imageprint
- Custom profile has better color saturation than Imageprint
- ImagePrint profile has  better shadow seperation than Custom Profile with shadow slider at 50
- ImagePrint profile has  similar  shadow seperation as Custom Profile with shadow slider at 1

Conclusion

Personally, I will be using the custom profile for most of my color prints. In some cases, where shadow separation is critical in the darkest tones, I will use ImagePrint. For my Black and White prints, I look forward to use Imageprint, when their Gray profiles become available for the Canon PRO series printers in the coming months.
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