Paying for use of Canon Pro-2000

[Frodo]

A friend has a near new Canon Prograf 2000 printer and this gives me the potential option to print larger prints (my Epson P600 only goes 13 inches wide) on his printer.
We need to determine a reasonable rate for my use of his printer.  I presume that I would come to his place (only about 6 miles away) with tiff file(s) on USB memory stick and would probably use my own paper.
The only information that I could find on the Pro 2000 was Keith Cooper's estimate of 1.2 - 1.6ml for an A3+ print.
It would be reasonable to contribute something to his sunk costs and printer maintenance - the printer seems to have limited throughput.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Thanks, Bob

[faberryman]

What does your friend think is fair?

[Frodo]

We are determining this together.  He hasn't come up with a figure. I agree it needs to be fair, hence asking the question here.

Thanks, Bob

[Mark D Segal]

If I were your friend, I would be looking at the commercial rates charged by commercial printing services and knocking off a good percentage (say between 30% to 50% ) that a commercial firm would charge to recover overheads and taxes. That way you have a fair market value adjusted for costs he doesn't incur on your behalf.

[John Caldwell]

I don't get the same price on ink, paper or printer service that a larger commercial house enjoys, so it's possible that I'd not break even at commercial rates. Having said that, I don't know what I'd charge if a friend wanted to use my gear.

[Mark D Segal]

Sure, it's hard to say John. There are essentially two ways: from a cost base up or from a market indicator down. To use the former you need the data to support the estimate. It's a no-brainer for ink because Canon's accounting manager is very transparent about that. but there is no transparency on ink for maintenance and it can be a fair chunk of change. Depreciation is tricky to calculate without good through-put and service life assumptions and for low volume usage it can exceed the cost of ink on a per print basis - and then there is the value of the person's time - we don't know whether he's contributing that or wants something back for it. At least working from the market down, there is good evidence of where to start and reasonable estimates can be made of what to take off. In the final analysis it will end up being a judgment call that both parties are comfortable with.

[Frodo]

In the final analysis it will end up being a judgment call that both parties are comfortable with.

Yes, that's what we are aiming for. And because of friendship involved it needs to be seen as fair.
From my friend's perspective, I guess that his printer will get more throughput, which is a good thing. It is a sunk cost for him, so how much of the depreciation should be shared?  And how much extra maintenance would there be for, say, twenty 24 x 36 inch prints per year?  On the other hand, if I were to buy a 24 inch printer, there would be capital expenditure and maintenance, in addition to running costs.  I would also get to "know" a printer and what it takes to optimise it, even though an Epson printer using similar prints would be better.
So yes, somewhere between market down and costs up will be where we end up.  The trouble is that there is a huge gulf between these two points.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Bob

[Mark D Segal]

Bob,

For depreciation, once he comes up with a reasonable estimate of throughput including your prints, you simply pay him its value on a per print basis. So just a hypothetical example to see the structure of how this would be done: Capital cost $3600. Fully depreciate over 36 months. Monthly fixed charge rate for depreciation is $100. Between the two of you the machine is expected to have an average throughput of say 50 prints per month of "X" size. Depreciation is then $2 per print. Something like that. So you make 20 prints on it, you pay $40 for depreciation. Add-in what the accounting manager data gives you to derive an average cost of ink per print of X size, add on a good 20% for maintenance ink, and that should cover it. You are supplying the paper, so no charge for that. Now you've built-up what you could pay for cost recovery before some friendly value for overheads and his time, so you may wish to bump up a bit for that. Perhaps something along those lines takes you closer. Still some research to be done going that route.

[Mark D Segal]

........ even though an Epson printer using similar prints would be better.
.............
Bob

Not really. It depends on the model of Epson printer and the gamut shape and volume needed for the specific photos - varies from case to case. For the most part you'll find a Canon Pro-2000 and an Epson Surecolor series printer producing output that's very hard to distinguish.

[Frodo]

Bob,

For depreciation, once he comes up with a reasonable estimate of throughput including your prints, you simply pay him its value on a per print basis. So just a hypothetical example to see the structure of how this would be done: Capital cost $3600. Fully depreciate over 36 months. Monthly fixed charge rate for depreciation is $100. Between the two of you the machine is expected to have an average throughput of say 50 prints per month of "X" size. Depreciation is then $2 per print. Something like that. So you make 20 prints on it, you pay $40 for depreciation. Add-in what the accounting manager data gives you to derive an average cost of ink per print of X size, add on a good 20% for maintenance ink, and that should cover it. You are supplying the paper, so no charge for that. Now you've built-up what you could pay for cost recovery before some friendly value for overheads and his time, so you may wish to bump up a bit for that. Perhaps something along those lines takes you closer. Still some research to be done going that route.

Sounds good!

[enduser]

Get three commercial quotes from small operators and take the mean. Then take off 50% (a typical retail markup)  So, if the mean of three quotes is, say, $50, pay the friend $25. (This is a typical method used)

[MarkFarber]

I rent time on the 24" Epson printer at the New England School of Photography near Boston.  I supply paper, they supply printer and ink.  $55/hour for all you can print.  Sounds pretty comparable.

[JeanMichel]

In my area – near Toronto, Ontario – a decent print can be had commercially for between $15 and $20 a square foot ($90 to $125 for a 24 by 36  inch print). When I decided to purchase a 24 inch printer one years ago I based my decision on a $8.00 per square foot print cost – that and because I only trust myself for making prints. If you provide your own paper, it is easy enough to calculate the per square foot cost of that and you could reduce that amount from the typical per square foot printing cost.

[Mark D Segal]

Yup - that's within the range for the Toronto area. The O/P is in New Zealand - not clear how one adjusts values between here and there - there's probably more to it than the exchange rate, but as local guidance for here this is useful. Note also that includes commercial overhead, which would be a big chunk of the value.

[Terry_Kennedy]

In my area – near Toronto, Ontario – a decent print can be had commercially for between $15 and $20 a square foot ($90 to $125 for a 24 by 36  inch print). When I decided to purchase a 24 inch printer one years ago I based my decision on a $8.00 per square foot print cost – that and because I only trust myself for making prints. If you provide your own paper, it is easy enough to calculate the per square foot cost of that and you could reduce that amount from the typical per square foot printing cost.

Is that cost estimate on a Canon, including paper?

I have an Epson P10K and the Epson accounting utility gives me much lower estimates than that. Here's 2 example large jobs, both with 100% ink coverage on Epson Premium Lustre Photo Paper 260, not a particularly expensive paper (click for accounting reports in US $ and images of what was printed):

1.52m^2, paper $8.299, ink $6.356 / Image
3.21m^2, paper $16.158, ink $17.832 / Image

Of course, there's overhead and the cost of my time not factored into those numbers. But the P10K wastes a lot less ink and is a speed demon compared to my older Epsons.

[Mark D Segal]

Is that cost estimate on a Canon, including paper?

I have an Epson P10K and the Epson accounting utility gives me much lower estimates than that. Here's 2 example large jobs, both with 100% ink coverage on Epson Premium Lustre Photo Paper 260, not a particularly expensive paper (click for accounting reports in US $ and images of what was printed):

1.52m^2, paper $8.299, ink $6.356 / Image
3.21m^2, paper $16.158, ink $17.832 / Image

Of course, there's overhead and the cost of my time not factored into those numbers. But the P10K wastes a lot less ink and is a speed demon compared to my older Epsons.

Your last sentence is where most of the cost is.

[Terry_Kennedy]

Your last sentence is where most of the cost is.

True. But if you're just letting someone use your printer, the cost of your time should be low just to keep an eye on them and handle paper loading if you're nervous. I find the P10K to be pretty much "start printing and forget about it" after reviewing the first print (when printing multiple copies of the same thing). It is in a different room from my image editing PC and I just listen for the "bip-bip" of it being finished or unhappy (and if unhappy, I get a pop-up on my PC telling me that).

[MHMG]

True. But if you're just letting someone use your printer, the cost of your time should be low just to keep an eye on them and handle paper loading if you're nervous.

All I can say is "been there done that". And no, the collaboration effort just doesn't work that way. The typical guest user knows little or nothing about the printer interface, your computer network, the printer driver or even loading the paper, etc., so there's a huge amount of hand holding. Very few people want to roll up their sleeves and "have at it" with all the trial and error that comes with wrestling a new-to-the-enduser printer into submission!  I finally concluded the best way to work with someone wanting to take on the "front end" responsibilities of the process and lower their costs by relying on a "friend who has a printer" is just to supply a custom ICC profile to the guest user, let him/her prep the file for print, and then handle all the back-end responsibilities myself. That's the most efficient use of one's time. Charge accordingly.  If the guest user doesn't like the print, the burden is on the guest user to go back and rework the file, but all the practical aspects of printing are best handled by the staff that normally runs the printer. Just my two cents.

[BobShaw]

I am not sure why the cost per print should be much less if anything than the commercial price unless you have actually bought the printer together.

The commercial houses cost per print is going to be much less than the smaller user because they print more prints and have better rates on consumables.
Also it is not just the printer. He has to supply the computer and his time and possibly account for the time he loses doing your job as opposed to doing his job.

So personally unless it is a "love job" which means it is not worth charging for, I would look at something close to the real rate less a small discount.

[dgberg]

I am not sure why the cost per print should be much less if anything than the commercial price unless you have actually bought the printer together.

The commercial houses cost per print is going to be much less than the smaller user because they print more prints and have better rates on consumables.
Also it is not just the printer. He has to supply the computer and his time and possibly account for the time he loses doing your job as opposed to doing his job.

So personally unless it is a "love job" which means it is not worth charging for, I would look at something close to the real rate less a small discount.

I am with Bob. Full rate plus a discount. If it's family that's different.
I print for quite a few people I consider friends and the discount is typically 20% with an occasional 25%.
But no one gets to run my printers or shop equipment but me.