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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52681 times)

Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #300 on: January 28, 2019, 02:54:22 pm »

Imaging Resources also had an interview in which Canon mentioned they had a lower-end EOS-R coming... I had the same question Guillermo had - it's already toward the bottom end of full-frame bodies in terms of features...

I agree with Rado that it will get the 6D2 sensor or an update to it, instead of the 5DIV-derived sensor the EOS-R has.

Drop the IBIS? It doesn't have IBIS.

Drop the weather sealing? Possible, but it would mean going from "high-end consumer" sealing to nothing at all. Unlike the Z series, the EOS-R already doesn't have full sealing.

Build quality in general? Perhaps - the EOS-R is pretty solid, and that's not cheap to do... They could go cheaper.

Mess with the viewfinder or screen? That's promising - it has a very, very nice 3.7 million pixel finder and a fully articulated screen. Those are premium components, and replacing them with the ubiquitous ~2.3 million pixel finder, lower-quality finder optics and a cheaper screen would shave some costs. Canon might even go for the first viewfinderless FF mirrorless camera other than the fixed-lens Sony RX1.

Lower speed? Possibly, but the EOS-R is already 5 FPS with focus going - acceptable, but not a lot of room to shave performance...

Less controls? I don't know of any FF camera without two main dials, and most augment that with a joystick, an extra dial or some other source of control (beyond the 4 way arrow buttons for the menus). The only extra control here is the touchscreen and the touchbar. Canon could go with a single-dial or even no-dial camera that relied much more heavily on the two touch interfaces - but that would be a huge break from all prior FF design conventions, although it's common in lower-end APS-C.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #301 on: January 28, 2019, 04:54:53 pm »

They will release an APS-C camera which will fall below their existing EOS-R camera.

Will that be on the M mount or R mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #302 on: January 28, 2019, 05:02:28 pm »

Imaging Resources also had an interview in which Canon mentioned they had a lower-end EOS-R coming... I had the same question Guillermo had - it's already toward the bottom end of full-frame bodies in terms of features...

I agree with Rado that it will get the 6D2 sensor or an update to it, instead of the 5DIV-derived sensor the EOS-R has.

Drop the IBIS? It doesn't have IBIS.

Drop the weather sealing? Possible, but it would mean going from "high-end consumer" sealing to nothing at all. Unlike the Z series, the EOS-R already doesn't have full sealing.

Build quality in general? Perhaps - the EOS-R is pretty solid, and that's not cheap to do... They could go cheaper.

Mess with the viewfinder or screen? That's promising - it has a very, very nice 3.7 million pixel finder and a fully articulated screen. Those are premium components, and replacing them with the ubiquitous ~2.3 million pixel finder, lower-quality finder optics and a cheaper screen would shave some costs. Canon might even go for the first viewfinderless FF mirrorless camera other than the fixed-lens Sony RX1.

Lower speed? Possibly, but the EOS-R is already 5 FPS with focus going - acceptable, but not a lot of room to shave performance...

Less controls? I don't know of any FF camera without two main dials, and most augment that with a joystick, an extra dial or some other source of control (beyond the 4 way arrow buttons for the menus). The only extra control here is the touchscreen and the touchbar. Canon could go with a single-dial or even no-dial camera that relied much more heavily on the two touch interfaces - but that would be a huge break from all prior FF design conventions, although it's common in lower-end APS-C.

They could:
- add a negative IBIS that generates blur on purpose - they would call is IBID with D standing for destabilization and claim nicer bokeh
- downres 4K to full HD in camera - boast about the sharper pixels
- desactivate peripheral AF points - focus on the less is more moto
- make the body larger and heavier - stress the better hand holdability
- prevent compatibility with legacy lenses - insist on the higher quality of the new cheap lens kits

Just kidding of course. Canon would never dumb down a camera to generate artificial segmentation. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 09:47:11 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #303 on: January 28, 2019, 05:22:19 pm »

Will that be on the M mount or R mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

No idea. Just read they will release an APS-C mirrorless camera to follow in the footsteps of the EOS-R. My guess is they'll use the R mount.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #304 on: January 28, 2019, 05:25:43 pm »

Imaging Resources also had an interview in which Canon mentioned they had a lower-end EOS-R coming... I had the same question Guillermo had - it's already toward the bottom end of full-frame bodies in terms of features...

I agree with Rado that it will get the 6D2 sensor or an update to it, instead of the 5DIV-derived sensor the EOS-R has.

Drop the IBIS? It doesn't have IBIS.

Drop the weather sealing? Possible, but it would mean going from "high-end consumer" sealing to nothing at all. Unlike the Z series, the EOS-R already doesn't have full sealing.

Build quality in general? Perhaps - the EOS-R is pretty solid, and that's not cheap to do... They could go cheaper.

Mess with the viewfinder or screen? That's promising - it has a very, very nice 3.7 million pixel finder and a fully articulated screen. Those are premium components, and replacing them with the ubiquitous ~2.3 million pixel finder, lower-quality finder optics and a cheaper screen would shave some costs. Canon might even go for the first viewfinderless FF mirrorless camera other than the fixed-lens Sony RX1.

Lower speed? Possibly, but the EOS-R is already 5 FPS with focus going - acceptable, but not a lot of room to shave performance...

Less controls? I don't know of any FF camera without two main dials, and most augment that with a joystick, an extra dial or some other source of control (beyond the 4 way arrow buttons for the menus). The only extra control here is the touchscreen and the touchbar. Canon could go with a single-dial or even no-dial camera that relied much more heavily on the two touch interfaces - but that would be a huge break from all prior FF design conventions, although it's common in lower-end APS-C.

Let's not forget the A6400 is a lower model APS-C camera that retains many of the features of its higher end cousins...in fact having some features it's bigger brother the A73 does not have.
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Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #305 on: January 28, 2019, 06:39:02 pm »

I'm kinda hoping there will be no RF mount APS-C body. What/who for? Canon's lens selection for the EF crop mount isn't that great, especially at the higher end (I don't think there's any L class EF-S lens for example) so I would expect the same treatment of crop RF bodies. And if you have to buy and carry the big RF lenses anyway why not take advantage of them with a full frame sensor too? The M series seems to be good enough for people who want a smaller/cheaper body and are happy with few basic zooms.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #306 on: January 28, 2019, 07:12:56 pm »

I'm kinda hoping there will be no RF mount APS-C body. What/who for? Canon's lens selection for the EF crop mount isn't that great, especially at the higher end (I don't think there's any L class EF-S lens for example) so I would expect the same treatment of crop RF bodies. And if you have to buy and carry the big RF lenses anyway why not take advantage of them with a full frame sensor too? The M series seems to be good enough for people who want a smaller/cheaper body and are happy with few basic zooms.

Should Canon keep 4 different mounts when Sony has only one and Nikon 2?

Does that sound like a good idea in a situation where the market size is stretching dramatically?

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #307 on: January 28, 2019, 07:13:13 pm »

I'm kinda hoping there will be no RF mount APS-C body. What/who for? Canon's lens selection for the EF crop mount isn't that great, especially at the higher end (I don't think there's any L class EF-S lens for example) so I would expect the same treatment of crop RF bodies. And if you have to buy and carry the big RF lenses anyway why not take advantage of them with a full frame sensor too? The M series seems to be good enough for people who want a smaller/cheaper body and are happy with few basic zooms.

I use a crop camera today with my full frame lenses for one reason...the implied reach. Well also for the fps I get from my crop.

Personally I'd never buy lenses designed for a crop sensor as that just limits their usefulness to me...can't use them on my full frame cameras.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #308 on: January 29, 2019, 04:37:30 am »

I have 4 tiny primes for apsc. 16mm 19mm 30mm and 60mm. Also a 10 to 18 mm zoom. I use these when size is critical. I also have a fairly comprehensive set of FF lenses. I switch around a lot.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #309 on: January 29, 2019, 05:02:56 am »

Personally I'd never buy lenses designed for a crop sensor as that just limits their usefulness to me...can't use them on my full frame cameras.

Your FF lenses on a APS sensor also have their usefulness limited since they are not optimum for APS. You are dropping a huge area of the circle you paid for, and getting mediocre results because of oversampling.

Just need to look at the poor p-Mpix performance of FF lenses on crop bodies in DxOMark.

Regards

Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #310 on: January 29, 2019, 08:10:13 am »

Should Canon keep 4 different mounts when Sony has only one and Nikon 2?

What 4? EF(S) for mirrorslappers, RF for full frame mirrorless and M for crop mirrorless. Everyone is saying that the bottom of the market is shrinking the fastest, so what's the point of having Rebels with RF mount when you already have the M line?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #311 on: January 29, 2019, 09:05:28 am »

What 4? EF(S) for mirrorslappers, RF for full frame mirrorless and M for crop mirrorless. Everyone is saying that the bottom of the market is shrinking the fastest, so what's the point of having Rebels with RF mount when you already have the M line?

4 because, if I am not mistaken, most EF-S lenses cannot be mounted on EF mount cameras, right?

So yes, EF and EF-S mounts have the same dimensions, but the cameras on which the mounts are installed are not compatible with the lenses... de facto it is equivalent to different mounts.

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #312 on: January 29, 2019, 09:30:59 am »

Your FF lenses on a APS sensor also have their usefulness limited since they are not optimum for APS. You are dropping a huge area of the circle you paid for, and getting mediocre results because of oversampling.

Just need to look at the poor p-Mpix performance of FF lenses on crop bodies in DxOMark.

Regards

Sure, but I use those same lenses on my full frame cameras...whereas if I bought strictly APS-C lenses they would be a one trick pony...no thanks.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #313 on: January 29, 2019, 09:35:05 am »

What 4? EF(S) for mirrorslappers, RF for full frame mirrorless and M for crop mirrorless. Everyone is saying that the bottom of the market is shrinking the fastest, so what's the point of having Rebels with RF mount when you already have the M line?

The point of having Rebel level cameras with an RF mount is the easy transition to higher level models. If someone using an M-mount Rebel decides they want to also shoot full frame...they need to purchase a whole suite of new lenses...which could lead them to look at other camera manufactures since they basically need to start from square one anyways.

From my view, Canon really confused their market with these 4 mounts.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #314 on: January 29, 2019, 04:52:47 pm »

The point of having Rebel level cameras with an RF mount is the easy transition to higher level models. If someone using an M-mount Rebel decides they want to also shoot full frame...they need to purchase a whole suite of new lenses...which could lead them to look at other camera manufactures since they basically need to start from square one anyways.

From my view, Canon really confused their market with these 4 mounts.

Absolutely.

How is their installed base made mostly of EF-S mount cameras an asset relative to Sony in terms of future market positionning?

How are M mount bodies helping the R mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #315 on: January 30, 2019, 12:49:02 pm »

Absolutely.

How is their installed base made mostly of EF-S mount cameras an asset relative to Sony in terms of future market positionning?

How are M mount bodies helping the R mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

I can see them making an R version of the EF-S mount camera which can take the existing EF-S lenses with an adapter.

But all I see for the M mount is a dead end.
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Rado

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #316 on: January 30, 2019, 03:24:38 pm »

The EOS R with adapter can already use EF-S lenses (it will switch into crop mode) so that's possible. I don't know what to think about crop RF bodies or lenses - Canon has the market/sales data and I don't.

Why is the M a dead end? Just because you can't upgrade it to RF? I don't get that argument - is the Fuji XF mount a dead end because you can't upgrade it to GFX? I think M works fairly nicely for people who want something small and inexpensive (and you can point the "it's mirrorless so it MUST be small" crowd to it).
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon's 4 lens mounts, for now
« Reply #317 on: January 31, 2019, 07:39:27 pm »

Should Canon keep 4 different mounts when Sony has only one and Nikon 2?

Does that sound like a good idea in a situation where the market size is stretching dramatically?
Some possibilities:

- Canon is finished developing lenses for EF-S mount; new lenses for its smaller sensor format will be M-mount only from now on.

- M mount lens offerings will at most expand modestly, as it is aimed at a market with modest needs, some of which are tolerably met with adaptor mounted EF-S and EF lenses which will continue on the market so long as enough people are buying them for EF-S-, EF- and M-mount cameras.

- Future EF mount development will slow too, with the current large and good selection needing only a few updates during the coming slow OVF twilight.

- On the longer, term the M lens range will be moderately expanded, but look at EF-S and DX offerings lately to get an idea of how modest the tempo of those new lens design efforts can be.

- If so, then only the R lens system will demand a lot of new lens investment, and maybe EF if demand for high end DSLR's persists.

- Canon has decided on the perhaps old-fashioned idea that different format sizes are best served by different lens mount sizes! A smaller format aimed mainly at less "gear-ambitious" photographers benefits from a smaller mount diameter that allows somewhat smaller cameras and more slender lenses, while a larger format aimed at offering state-of-the art high end performance benefits from a larger mount diameter. In the words, Canon does not see the cross-over market of people with cameras in two different formats, using the smaller format ones as backups, or for extra telephoto reach [rather than using a teleconverter] as big enough to let it impede optimal design for each format separately.

The ability to use lenses designed for a larger format on a smaller format body was far more important with the film-digital SLR transition, when the huge selection of "legacy" lenses were for the larger format, and so optically suitable for use on the smaller format.
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon's 4 lens mounts, for now
« Reply #318 on: February 02, 2019, 06:56:17 am »

Some possibilities:

- Canon is finished developing lenses for EF-S mount; new lenses for its smaller sensor format will be M-mount only from now on.

- M mount lens offerings will at most expand modestly, as it is aimed at a market with modest needs, some of which are tolerably met with adaptor mounted EF-S and EF lenses which will continue on the market so long as enough people are buying them for EF-S-, EF- and M-mount cameras.

- Future EF mount development will slow too, with the current large and good selection needing only a few updates during the coming slow OVF twilight.

- On the longer, term the M lens range will be moderately expanded, but look at EF-S and DX offerings lately to get an idea of how modest the tempo of those new lens design efforts can be.

- If so, then only the R lens system will demand a lot of new lens investment, and maybe EF if demand for high end DSLR's persists.

- Canon has decided on the perhaps old-fashioned idea that different format sizes are best served by different lens mount sizes! A smaller format aimed mainly at less "gear-ambitious" photographers benefits from a smaller mount diameter that allows somewhat smaller cameras and more slender lenses, while a larger format aimed at offering state-of-the art high end performance benefits from a larger mount diameter. In the words, Canon does not see the cross-over market of people with cameras in two different formats, using the smaller format ones as backups, or for extra telephoto reach [rather than using a teleconverter] as big enough to let it impede optimal design for each format separately.

The ability to use lenses designed for a larger format on a smaller format body was far more important with the film-digital SLR transition, when the huge selection of "legacy" lenses were for the larger format, and so optically suitable for use on the smaller format.

Unless they really update their AF and speed of the M cameras...they'll be alienating the 7D / 7D2 customers by not offering a fast APS-C system.

Also by not making their M cameras be able to use R lenses...they are basically dead ending the M customer from upgrading to full frame down the road.

I think it will be a huge mistake by Canon not to have an APS-C model in the R system.
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon M & R lack of lens sharing
« Reply #319 on: February 02, 2019, 10:13:56 am »

“Dead end” is strong words for the fact that anyone who adds or changes to a larger format system will need different lenses for it—the same as for any 35mm system with respect to a medium format system, or indeed any change from any film format to a larger one. (Except that there is the hack of using EF lenses on both M and R)

It is to me an open question how important to what fraction of customers it is to use lenses for a new larger mirrorless format on a “consumer level” camera in a smaller format. To start with, what fraction of M customers will up their budget and weight-load to the R system?

(And to repeat, a TC looks like a cheaper, lighter way to increase the reach of a 35mm format lens than buying and carrying an extra body in a smaller format for the sake of its smaller pixels and crop.)
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