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Author Topic: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?  (Read 24617 times)

felixpq

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How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« on: October 13, 2018, 10:40:51 am »

I've contacted many companies, Canon, Adobe and Microsoft and they all say yes you can print with a 16 bit depth. But after trying to find the answer on this for a while, I think it would be nice to know for sure if it is actually the case, so anyone knows of any test one could use to know for sure?

I'm convinced a paper like the one in this image I've attached, the solid is the paper gamut and the mesh is Adobe RGB. This paper and many others would surely benefit from 16 printing.

Thanks



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digitaldog

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 10:49:45 am »

Very, very few print drivers pass high bit data to the printer. And it’s unnecessary too.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2018, 11:10:39 am »

The O/P didn't indicate whether he/she contacted the appropriate source for such information, which would be the designers of the printer drivers, which would be the printer manufacturers. Looking at Epson, this older web page Epson - 16-bit support, they say they support a full 16-bit workflow through the printer driver and illustrate the benefits of 16-bit processing. They also list the professional printer models before the latest SC-P series supporting 16 bit printing. As this is an older web page, it must be assumed that all the most recent Epson professional printers also support 16-bit printing. As I have an SC-P5000 printer, I know its driver offers the choice to send 16-bit data. It's highly unlikely any of the others in this line do not.
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felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2018, 11:13:12 am »

Very, very few print drivers pass high bit data to the printer. And it’s unnecessary too.


Canon assures me that their XPS drivers for windows allow this. Microsoft say yes as well since 2008 and I even check with Adobe if Lightroom and or Photoshop change the bit depth at any time during the printing process and they say no but yes I'm skeptic as well, so I'd like to know if there is a way one could verify if my setup print 16 bit or not.

Whether it's useful or visible is not the point. I just want to prove if it is possible or not.

Regards,
YG
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Mark D Segal

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2018, 11:14:18 am »

I've contacted many companies, Canon, Adobe and Microsoft and they all say yes you can print with a 16 bit depth. But after trying to find the answer on this for a while, I think it would be nice to know for sure if it is actually the case, so anyone knows of any test one could use to know for sure?

I'm convinced a paper like the one in this image I've attached, the solid is the paper gamut and the mesh is Adobe RGB. This paper and many others would surely benefit from 16 printing.

Thanks

I should add, I'm not sure from what you write above whether you understand what the benefit of a 16-bit data flow really is. You will not see it in gamut pictures because it does nothing for gamut; the Epson page I referenced above says it mainly influences the smoothness and accuracy of tonal transitions.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2018, 11:18:03 am »



Canon assures me that their XPS drivers for windows allow this. Microsoft say yes as well since 2008 and I even check with Adobe if Lightroom and or Photoshop change the bit depth at any time during the printing process and they say no but yes I'm skeptic as well, so I'd like to know if there is a way one could verify if my setup print 16 bit or not.

Whether it's useful or visible is not the point. I just want to prove if it is possible or not.

Regards,
YG

If you just want to see what difference it makes, download a large high bit image of a B&W tone ramp, or colour tone ramps, or construct your own in Photoshop using a gradient on a layer mask and then print it first with the driver set to 8 bit, then with the driver set to 16 bit and see whether you notice a difference. It is often the case that things which should look different in theory don't in practice, depending on a number of variables that you can either control for or not.

I should add: it's not clear to me how important it is to know whether something is possible if you aren't concerned about whether the results are useful and visible. Isn't the end-point of making a print how it looks?
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JRSmit

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2018, 11:25:42 am »

Under Windows, the surecolor sc-p drivers are 16bit and primting from Lightroom. I checked this by looking at the spoolfiles, and compared with the 9900 . The spoolfiles are twice the size in MB.
I cannot choose 8 of 16 bit, so no comparison possible.
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felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2018, 11:30:36 am »

I should add, I'm not sure from what you write above whether you understand what the benefit of a 16-bit data flow really is. You will not see it in gamut pictures because it does nothing for gamut; the Epson page I referenced above says it mainly influences the smoothness and accuracy of tonal transitions.

What they show on that page is relatively old but still pretty relevant and it's all in the size of the steps. Today one can find papers, inks and printer combination that provide way to small a gamut to be useful for photographic images taken in raw for example. But on the other end of this we have other combination of paper, inks and printer that offer a pretty large gamut. Kind of what you can see in my post above. The gamut doesn't change in no way because I would use 8 or 16 bit pipeline to print it but the measures like the Delta E of image printed at 16 bit should be much smaller then those printed at 8 bit, just because the step size is much smaller at 16 bit then at 8 bit like it's shown in the link you provided.
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felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2018, 11:35:30 am »

Under Windows, the surecolor sc-p drivers are 16bit and primting from Lightroom. I checked this by looking at the spoolfiles, and compared with the 9900 . The spoolfiles are twice the size in MB.
I cannot choose 8 of 16 bit, so no comparison possible.

That's the closest thing to a proof I've seen so far that at minimum what goes to the printer is a 16 bit file. Now just have to check what comes out of the printer is still truly 16 bit?

Thanks,
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mearussi

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2018, 11:46:07 am »

From the tests I've done (using my landscape shots), on a completely finished file "ready to print" the difference between printing 16 bit vs 8 bit and tiff vs jpeg does not show up in the final print. So now after I've done all my PP in PS I convert it to the highest jpeg file and use that to print with as it loads into the printer much faster. 
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digitaldog

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2018, 11:48:08 am »

Whether it's useful or visible is not the point. I just want to prove if it is possible or not.
Of course it's possible, I didn't say otherwise. I said very, very few print drivers provide this data to be fully passed onto the printer. And I said, based on my testing of this, it's not at all useful; it's invisible!
My Epson 3880 driver (on Mac OS ONLY) has a check box for passing 16-bit data. Using this very wide gamut test file, filled with images and synthetic constructs, I sent the image to the driver in 16-bit. Then converted to 8-bit per color and turned the check box off to be sure. There is NO visible difference in the two prints under my best loupe. Nada, nothing, zero.
Try it for yourself using this test image:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif
Now even more interesting is that my newer P800 driver no longer has this option (check box). What does that tell you?
Some Canon print drivers (the PS plug-in) also allow this option. So yeah, it's possible. And thus far, I've seen no one that has provided data it's at all necessary.
High bit data is about editing overhead. Then all you need to do is send the best 8-bits per color to the driver. And when you don't, most drivers convert the high bit data to 8-bits per data behind your back.
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digitaldog

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2018, 11:49:30 am »

I should add, I'm not sure from what you write above whether you understand what the benefit of a 16-bit data flow really is.
I agree so I'll add this for him:
http://digitaldog.net/files/TheHighBitdepthDebate.pdf

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digitaldog

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2018, 11:50:35 am »

Now just have to check what comes out of the printer is still truly 16 bit?
Printers don't output bits. Look at the prints. Then you'll know.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2018, 12:10:18 pm »

There is a current discussion of just this issue on the ArgyllCMS email forum:  https://www.freelists.org/post/argyllcms/testing,1075
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felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2018, 01:34:05 pm »

Sorry I have to go for now I'll be back later I just I'll be able read all your messages

Thanks
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Sbarroso

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2018, 07:49:36 am »

I have a Canon Pixma Pro 1 (discontinued) and I run it in Windows. The XPS drive can print in 16 bits. However, Lightroom only works at 8 bits with this combination (unless any recent update had changed that, I haven't checked recently). Luckily, the  Canon plug-in Print Studio Pro does work (the only reason I have to use this plug in).

I've noticed the difference in black and white pictures showing a smooth gradient, like a clear sky. Most people won't realize the difference, but I don't like it if I see the resulting banding in 8 bits.  Most of my pictures, however, do not require 16 bits printing, so I stick to the Lightroom print module.

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2018, 08:41:43 am »

Of course it's possible, I didn't say otherwise. I said very, very few print drivers provide this data to be fully passed onto the printer. And I said, based on my testing of this, it's not at all useful; it's invisible!
My Epson 3880 driver (on Mac OS ONLY) has a check box for passing 16-bit data. Using this very wide gamut test file, filled with images and synthetic constructs, I sent the image to the driver in 16-bit. Then converted to 8-bit per color and turned the check box off to be sure. There is NO visible difference in the two prints under my best loupe. Nada, nothing, zero.
Try it for yourself using this test image:
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/Gamut_Test_File_Flat.tif
Now even more interesting is that my newer P800 driver no longer has this option (check box). What does that tell you?
Some Canon print drivers (the PS plug-in) also allow this option. So yeah, it's possible. And thus far, I've seen no one that has provided data it's at all necessary.
High bit data is about editing overhead. Then all you need to do is send the best 8-bits per color to the driver. And when you don't, most drivers convert the high bit data to 8-bits per data behind your back.

Thanks for the file, it seems super at first glance, I'm curious about one little thing though, at the top of the sheet it says ProPhoto  RGB 16 bit data, so why the file profile is Adobe RGB?

I especially love this one, "... most drivers convert the high bit data to 8-bits per data behind your back." and it is exactly why I would like to be able to know if they did this to me or not?

When most people here say there is no visible difference between a 16 and a 8 bit print and suggest strongly don't waste your time on this, could it be because someone is playing in their back?

Since every one seems to agree that I waste my time and yours with my questions and that whether or not the companies do stuff behind our backs. You are correct in saying there is no noticeable difference but for the wrong reason unfortunately.

Here is an answer that everyone can verify probably even with a scanner, using the CIE76 Delta E metric and even considering that this metric is not uniform across the spectrum, ie we can see some color difference better then others and that I tested only a few RGB triplets by changing just on color by one 8 bit level say (100, 100,100) compared to (100,101,100), I converted each of those to (XYZ) and then to L*A*B* then applied both CIE76 Delta E and CIEDE2000 and the result are under the just discernible threshold according to my reference, in other words we can't see it. That being said, with an instrument like the I1Studio spectrometer or whichever, again this as to be taken with a grain of salt because we don't know what companies do in our backs and I didn't read all the fine print. The RGB triplets above give a DE2000 of about 1 unit, to be honest I used an Excel sheet to do these calculation and I don't know which colorspace these RGB values are treated as, nor the illuminant and which observer so your mileage will vary that's for sure. The good news is a spectrometer like the one in the I1Studio product can in theory measure a 0.1 DeltaE*2000 under an illuminant of D50 and assuming a 2 degrees observer. In other words if you have one of these to make your profiles you can check if you've been screwed or not.

Same goes for your supposedly 10 bit quasi full (95% plus) covering of the AdobeRGB gamut display, some companies play in your back here as well , I forgot many paper, ink and printer combo bust the AdobeRGB colorspace but it doesn't matter, no monitor is likely to show these color anyway and since you can't see them in your workflow, why bother. I think Ansel Adams wouldn't like this kind of thought but who knows. 

Think of this, suppose that on this or that print, you have say in 16 bit a value just barely above the 8 bit level of say 100 and the value of next pixel to it is halfway between 101 and 102. According to most of what you say, in this situation your driver may very likely convert these 16 bit values to 100 and 101 and yes we won't see a noticeable difference we agree 100 % but at a true 16 bit values of 100 to 101 + 126/255 the Delta E increases by 50%, again it may not be noticeable visually. But it will at some point even if it's barely noticeable overall your image will definitely have smoother gradient at 16 bit then at 8 bit, it's a fact.

Have a nice day all and thanks for the inspiration.






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felixpq

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2018, 10:15:15 am »

I forgot to give you my reference.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwju9r7JiIbeAhUJy1kKHZbsBWIQFjAAegQICBAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fdownloads.hindawi.com%2Fjournals%2Fam%2F2012%2F273723.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1HXAF_E3_h05C3WykeKaLa

And its seem I use a DE2000 of 1 unit as JND ( just noticeable difference) and this paper suggest a value 0.5 is more appropriate. We can argue that if we can see a pretty small color difference, assuming a true 16 bit pipeline no in your back dropping of bit and pieces here and there, now my worksheet give me a 0.51 DE2000 for these 2 RGB triplets (100.100.100) and (100,100.5,100). This would suggest we are able to discern more then the 256 tones of an 8 bit print. But wait the paper says this is partly subjective partly objective base data. I think only the spectrometer will be able to definitely put and end to this. Lastly I don't know all the facts about the tool I use to evaluate the DE2000 to begin with, it may off or not I have no clue.

Thanks,
YG
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Garnick

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2018, 11:13:52 am »

"But it will at some point even if it's barely noticeable overall your image will definitely have smoother gradient at 16 bit then at 8 bit, it's a fact".

Keeping the above quote in mind it seems to me that this thread has become somewhat convoluted with overlapping references to both 16bit processing and 16bit printing(if there is indeed such a thing).  I will freely admit that the possibility that I have misread some of the thread is quite likely, but I do believe that the above quote seems to prove my theory of overlapping subjects.  I just checked again to verify the intention of the OP and I was correct.  It was not aimed at the value of processing a file in 16bit, it was instead aimed at printing in 16bit -- again, if that is at all possible, which would seem to be in question here.  In this case I believe it would probably have been a good idea to address this difference early in the thread, so that we wouldn't be talking apples and oranges as has been the case in some replies.  YES INDEED, we do ALL realize and appreciate the advantage(s) of processing a file in 16bit.  However, that was never part of the initial question as I read it.  It was all about printing in 16bit and whether or not it actually makes any difference in the final outcome.  Unfortunately the lines/curves have become crossed and the final outcome is in doubt as I see it. 

My rant for the day.  Likely nothing of any value, which I imagine will be pointed out soon, and welcomed  ;)

Gary 
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JRSmit

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Re: How to test if a print was made at 16 bit?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2018, 11:38:26 am »

Still others variables like pixels per inch or printer settings like fine details for Epson or variations in distances paper to print head  hava a greater impact in my opinion.
Must say that my Printing platform had been Lightroom predominantly now for years.
Still looking for a better in terms of printquality, not yet found.
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