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Author Topic: Just Published - Photography is Selection  (Read 6200 times)

Christopher Sanderson

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Just Published - Photography is Selection
« on: September 21, 2018, 05:35:01 pm »

Today, we have published Andrew Molitor's latest essay with his thoughts on photography

Mark D Segal

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2018, 08:09:04 am »

I really enjoyed this essay, as I think Andrew has achieved a fine balance in the distinction between selection and creating. I agree with Andrew that by its very nature a photograph begins life as an act of selection - it is capturing what's there in the way we see it. It can become creative in the manner we make those selections and what we do with the original photograph there after. Thanks to our current digital technology the possibilities for what I would call "creative value added" are limitless. But it starts as an act of more or less thoughtful selection.
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Peter_DL

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2018, 05:02:40 am »

 
Unless of course we create the reality and the photographic subject in some way,
- for example just google Landart,
- or painting with light,
- or arranging a still life for photography.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2018, 08:09:39 am »

Unless of course we create the reality and the photographic subject in some way,
- ..
- or arranging a still life for photography.

In which case you are not a creative photographer, but a creative still-life arranger  ;)

Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2018, 09:19:13 am »

This, to my mind, is a spurious, simplistic proposition.

Whilst it may indeed apply to some types of photography, it simply refuses to acknowledge others have a different genesis.

In fact, I am aware of having travelled this conversation here, on our beloved LuLa, more than once. In earlier debates, as in this one, it is conveniently ignored that the fashion photographer, the portraitist and the still life photographer do a helluva lot more than select: they make something exist that did not, and would not have existed without them. Granted, there is selection as in the sense of the knowing decision to go shoot something, but that's no different to the process that confronts the painter or the architect: without that motivator and further selective decisions, the painter could just as well not set up his canvas; or, could as easily throw a tube of blue at the canvas as red. Silly, isn't it?

Photographic history may be interesting per se, but in no way does it further the argument.

This article may appear convincing within a landscape photography context, and it most certainly is in tune with my own perception of the genre, where the prime elements appear, to me, to consist of little but strong hiking boots, and unlimited patience waiting for God to pull something out of the hat for the snapper. The snapper's contribution is then indeed a matter of selection and editing via voting with his feet or going slowly and more comfortably (and with less damage to said feet) courtesy his latest zoom. Landscape people have a lot of faith in wide zooms... and of zoom telephoto lenses too, come to think of it.

Somewhere along the proposal the little matter of creativity was ignored, denied and reduced to nothing more than editing what the net dredges up from out of the swamp. There are genres of photography where no swamp or net is used at all, more a flight with a wing and a prayer. I like that more.

Rob

amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2018, 09:27:59 am »

The point, though, is that selection is and always has been looked down upon, viewed as lesser than creation,

and it ought not to be.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 09:56:21 am by amolitor »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2018, 09:36:03 am »

... the fashion photographer, the portraitist and the still life photographer do a helluva lot more than select: they make something exist that did not, and would not have existed without them...

How so? The model, portrait subject, and still life exist on their own before, during, and after the snap. Excactly the same as the landscape. The model strikes a pose, and your job is to press the button at the right moment to capture her creation, just as it is when “God” strikes a tree with a beautiful light.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2018, 09:37:40 am »

The point, though, that selection is and always has been looked down upon, viewed as lesser than creation,

and it ought not to be.

Ah, Andrew and I in agreement again, after a while 😉

degrub

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2018, 09:39:52 am »

Perhaps “opportunism” should be used in place of “selection” for it is ‘waiting for Godot’ rather than “creation” out of the wisps of the mind ?
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Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2018, 09:49:42 am »

How so? The model, portrait subject, and still life exist on their own before, during, and after the snap. Excactly the same as the landscape. The model strikes a pose, and your job is to press the button at the right moment to capture her creation, just as it is when “God” strikes a tree with a beautiful light.


Of course the model already exists, as does the photographer. As does the painter and the canvas he intends to use, and the brushes, knives and paints. But you do a lot more than have her "strike a pose" because you direct and, if she's any good, or can even empathise with you, you both go places you would not otherwise reach. Far from being her creation or yours, it, the image, only exists because you were able to finger-to-finger, in manner temporarily divine. Without directing and emotional response to direction and understanding of it, nada. Club pictures; Hollywood vs. home movies.

And here's the thing: you can't ever do it again in exactly the same way. As with people's kids: same parents, different kids with different looks, abilities and personalities.

Still life: I do not mean a photograph of a rock.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 09:53:19 am by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2018, 10:00:14 am »

...because you direct ...

Which makes you a director, not a photographer. Same person, different hats. It doesn’t even have to be the same person, or even a person. If art director is present and directs the shoot, you (the photographer) just press the button when you select the right moment. Enter new technology: a camera that autonomously takes pics at ten per second as long as the model moves. Art director then selects the best shot. No photographer needed.

KLaban

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2018, 10:41:32 am »

The painter can create a representation of something that exists or can create a representation of something that doesn't exist. Both approaches involve creativity.

The photographer can create a representation of something that exists or can create a representation of something that doesn't exist. Both approaches involve creativity.

To suggest that one approach and or discipline is dredging something up from out of the swamp and the other is more akin to divine creation is both a simplistic and spurious proposition.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 11:18:32 am by KLaban »
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Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2018, 11:25:43 am »

Which makes you a director, not a photographer. Same person, different hats. It doesn’t even have to be the same person, or even a person. If art director is present and directs the shoot, you (the photographer) just press the button when you select the right moment. Enter new technology: a camera that autonomously takes pics at ten per second as long as the model moves. Art director then selects the best shot. No photographer needed.


What nonsense Slobodan; it's same person same hat (creative hat) because they happen at the same time. As both involve making something happen and exist for that briefest of moments within an aesthetic context, it is creation. You may have a point where an AD is not also the photographer. But then committee seldom makes art; more does it tend to buy or dictate what it might be.

Of course, you may feel inclined to wear two hats at once, which out in the polar regions may make some sense.

I avoid those extremes as much as I can.

:-)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 11:32:52 am by Rob C »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2018, 11:28:51 am »

... it's same person same hat because they happen at the same time..

I already provided a counter-argument: "It doesn’t even have to be the same person, or even a person."

Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2018, 11:36:03 am »

I already provided a counter-argument: "It doesn’t even have to be the same person, or even a person."


Which in this context makes no sense at all. We, or especially Andrew, were writing about photographers as humans, not machines.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 12:34:01 pm »

In any case, creativity, especially as a goal in itself, is overrated. What matters is the impact on the viewer, and this can be achieved with or without (much) creativity (narrowly defined).

adri

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2018, 02:30:48 pm »

The art of selection is not a creative act?

The art of selection itself to me is a creative act, because it resonates with somethign intangible within me, and that's my creative heart. My inner vision.

It starts within, and not without. And we all need tools to express this creativity. The object to be photographed can also be seen as a tool of sorts.

The without, the "what I see out there" is an affirmation of that intangible within me that is suddenly woken up in an "aha" moment.

The giving of myself to the visual and the receiving, the answering as-it-were, of the visual back to me creates an internal energy, a creative moment and flow, and is often the foundation for hours of this energized shooting engagement.

Also, shooting style, is a form of more than just selection. It says something about the mind, the creativity within, the inner vision of the photographer. For example, people have told me that I have a particular style. Is a photograph by Alfred Eisensteadt the same as one taken by Annie Leibowitz? Of course not. Style to me is creativity. Just like Picasso, Rembrandt; I see selection as mere process of the creative. Give those two photographers the same scene and see what they do with it; they will select according to their creative inner vision. This inner vision always precedes the actual scene to be shot.

Selection, as you call it, is therefore a primary act of creativity. A painter selects colors, brushes, canvas size, etc. Many (not all) photographers select scenes as part of their creative expression.

I manipulate images like crazy and you could say that I do graphic arts based on images I shot. I often shoot with a pre-conceived idea in mind and a then find and indeed select something appropriate to shoot. Yes, I then select, but at heart is a different more primary inner visionary process.

True, in that sense, all creativity is an art of selection. Like my brother who is a sculptor. He selects marble or granite, certain tools, hammers, etc.; he also depends on the material of what he can do with it (not all stones can be turned into what one envisions; there are limitations due to the inner structure of the stone).

I select in my mind what I want to achieve, what my creative mind desires. My choices. Choices are always selections,; selections of possibilities, even dreamed up ideas that cannot be realized. In that sense, this article uses the right term/word. But at the same time it just is so much more than that.

I improvise music on the piano. Is that being selective or creative? Isn't it both, all at once at the same time? Does one precede the other? I personally don't think so. One creative musical sequence leads to the "selection" of the next, and this process goes well beyond the issue of what comes first. I believe they are simultaneous. And when you improvise, who's in control? The tonality? The key? The mood? The style? Who's listening? The lights? Ambient noises? Feedback? 
Often all of it!

In that sense, despite the otherwise intriguing point made, I still find the article a bit unnuanced, and I would encourage Andrew Molitor to expand it, refine it, and be creative with it.

Below is an image I shot this way on purpose with a 6x6 camera, with the express purpose of turning it into a composite of some sort. That is: I saw it, and then it got my creative juices flowing and then I came back to it with the right camera and shot it and then manipulated it later on. No creativity happens in a vacuum, but builds on what already exists and evolves it further with creativity. This is true for architecture, painting, music, etc.

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amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2018, 03:30:04 pm »

This thread illustrates perfectly exactly what I wanted to address in my piece.

We are witnessing in real time the, I hesitate to say desperate, let us say instead "firm and vigorous" rejection of the idea that photography is not at its core simply selection

    as if there were something wrong with that

My thesis is simple: there isn't anything wrong with that.

You can fuss about whether the word "photography" stretches to cover lighting or not, post-processing or not. I don't care much, and that is to miss the point.
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OmerV

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2018, 06:34:18 pm »

This thread illustrates perfectly exactly what I wanted to address in my piece.

We are witnessing in real time the, I hesitate to say desperate, let us say instead "firm and vigorous" rejection of the idea that photography is not at its core simply selection

    as if there were something wrong with that

My thesis is simple: there isn't anything wrong with that.

You can fuss about whether the word "photography" stretches to cover lighting or not, post-processing or not. I don't care much, and that is to miss the point.

Andrew, who exactly are the “photographers and critics have felt that it is somehow lesser than the creative arts in which the artist actually makes things, actually creates things?”

KLaban

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2018, 01:16:24 am »

Rob, given your previous posts in this thread I find it strange that you celebrate Saul Leiter for dredging it up from the swamp and yet feel somewhat aggrieved when it transpires that he is very capable of directing the action.

Following on from the propositions in your previous posts, it begs the question, what of Street? - which is essentially working with whatever is dredged up from the swamp. Can then Street be considered a creative genre? 
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 02:29:16 am by KLaban »
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