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Author Topic: Just Published - Photography is Selection  (Read 6196 times)

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2018, 07:57:50 pm »

This discussion has (predictably, I suppose) veered wildly from the the point I was making on the front page, and I don't really want to get embroiled in a debate about whether the word "photography" right includes the various acts of creation that surround it.

I think it is pure sophistry to claim that you cannot distinguish between "selecting" and "creating", as per my remark about applying paint to the canvas.

Tim did engage in creation, as did Vermeer, in ways that I do not when I mash the button on my camera. Try as I might, I cannot see as how that is possibly open for discussion, it appears to me to be simply factual. The word "create" means something, after all.

Dragging in the word "artist" now potentially opens another door, but again circles back to the Victorian debate over photography, and my original thesis.

The idea that in order to be an "artist" one must "create" is also wrong, at least in the modern understanding of what those two words mean.

So now you are speaking of your own interpretation of what you do selectively or creatively, when as you put it, you mash the camera button down, and so you must also accept that others may have differing views on what they believe to be their creative process and that these other and quite possibly opposing interpretations, are just as valid as everyone elses, including yours and mine.

So when you said "I think it is pure sophistry to claim that you cannot distinguish between "selecting" and "creating", as per my remark about applying paint to the canvas." I wasn't trying to be obtuse there Andrew or trying to trip you up, I was just trying to show you the futility of this debate. Because on one hand you say we photographers select and do not create as a painter does, yet when I show you an example of where an esteemed world famous and highly valuable artist, turns out in fact to have been no more than a photographer using paint instead of ink, then by your own interpretation he must have selected and not created, yet you come back and say no he created. So is it paint that makes it creative???

But when it all comes down to it, these are just words and semantic contortions and as I said previously, why should we care what titles people want to put on what we do, when all that really matters is that we are driven to do it and to it as well as we can and in a way that satisfies something deep within each of us.

I am out of this discussion now Andrew, because I feel as if I am beginning to annoy you unnecessarily and I do not want to do that, as I totally respect your opinion and enjoy reading whatever you write, as it is always enjoyable and thought provoking and well written, but hey, as the old playground saying goes, you started it..  ;)

Dave
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 08:03:34 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2018, 08:29:54 pm »

Photographers do many things, many of them are creative. But not all of them, and not a particular and essential one:

There is a moment, a piece of the puzzle, an element which is not creative but selective. I call that *the essence of photography" and can, I think, argue that word choice coherently. But whether you call it "photography* or "Sandra" it has its own magic despite not being an act of creation.

It is as fully capable of generating Art as is sculpture or painting, despite the fact that the latter are acts of making, of creation, and the former is not.

It is fully a peer of creation.
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amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2018, 10:00:41 pm »

It is more or less exactly this debate which spurred my essay in the first place. We're seeing all the usual moves:

"I move lights around"
"I do a lot of photoshop"
"By pressing the button I create because electrons something something"
"Is not selecting actually the same thing as creation?"

all to justify photography AS an act of creation. Which suggests, frankly, an urgent desire to identify oneself AS a creative, not as a, as it were, selective. Virtually everyone in this thread appears to be offended or upset, at least slightly, at the idea that what they do is not at its core creative but rather selective.

There is a curious parallel with the Victorian gentleman who argued, cogently and loudly, that photography WAS NOT ART because it was purely mechanical, at the bottom. The response was to add all manner of creative "stuff" to the mechanical processes, and we wound up with the worst excesses of the Pictorialists.

My aim is not to demean you as a "mere selective" but to uplift you, to validate and empower you, as a "selective". And, by all means, move lights around and photoshop all the night long in addition!

The Victorians, as well as both modern critics and photographers, confusedly assume that it cannot be Art unless it includes creation.

Any photographer knows that, even if you stick to the purely mechanical, if you move no lights and do no photoshop, sometimes by a mysterious alchemy, pretty good pictures turn up anyways.

So it became clear to me that Art must be separated from Creation (something Duchamp was at some pains to teach us almost 100 years past). Once Art is free to roam, it might as well be attached to Selection to see if that works, and when you try it out, lo, it does.

Rob C might claim "direction" as a creative act and I will not deny him that. But I am certain also that Rob would admit that in the end it comes down to pressing the button >now< rather than.... >now<, that is, to an act of selection.
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OmerV

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2018, 10:48:07 pm »

It is more or less exactly this debate which spurred my essay in the first place. We're seeing all the usual moves:

"I move lights around"
"I do a lot of photoshop"
"By pressing the button I create because electrons something something"
"Is not selecting actually the same thing as creation?"

all to justify photography AS an act of creation. Which suggests, frankly, an urgent desire to identify oneself AS a creative, not as a, as it were, selective. Virtually everyone in this thread appears to be offended or upset, at least slightly, at the idea that what they do is not at its core creative but rather selective.

There is a curious parallel with the Victorian gentleman who argued, cogently and loudly, that photography WAS NOT ART because it was purely mechanical, at the bottom. The response was to add all manner of creative "stuff" to the mechanical processes, and we wound up with the worst excesses of the Pictorialists.

My aim is not to demean you as a "mere selective" but to uplift you, to validate and empower you, as a "selective". And, by all means, move lights around and photoshop all the night long in addition!

The Victorians, as well as both modern critics and photographers, confusedly assume that it cannot be Art unless it includes creation.

Any photographer knows that, even if you stick to the purely mechanical, if you move no lights and do no photoshop, sometimes by a mysterious alchemy, pretty good pictures turn up anyways.

So it became clear to me that Art must be separated from Creation (something Duchamp was at some pains to teach us almost 100 years past). Once Art is free to roam, it might as well be attached to Selection to see if that works, and when you try it out, lo, it does.

Rob C might claim "direction" as a creative act and I will not deny him that. But I am certain also that Rob would admit that in the end it comes down to pressing the button >now< rather than.... >now<, that is, to an act of selection.

Andrew, I can’t tell whether you are serious or just being a gadfly to try and evoke a response that will mollify some insecurity you have. You seem content with the debate, so at some level your silly little piece worked. I guess.

But really, this just had me rolling. From the above:

  My aim is not to demean you as a "mere selective" but to uplift you, to validate and empower you, as a "selective". And, by all means, move lights around and photoshop all the night long in addition!

Hilarious!

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2018, 10:53:11 pm »

Ahmmm...

amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2018, 10:57:59 pm »

I am perfectly serious, and I assure you that none of my insecurities are in play here. I will check with my therapist next time I get a chance, though, and will let you know if I turned out to be wrong on that point.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2018, 11:42:33 pm »

This appears to be another debate on how much photoshopping is allowed before a picture goes from a "natural" "unedited" photo to digital art. 

amolitor

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2018, 11:45:30 pm »

It might get there, Alan, but it does not strike me as there yet. I will be well out of it, should it get there.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2018, 12:07:56 am »

A distinction without a difference.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2018, 12:19:18 am »

OK I'll add my two cents. 

God creates, man crafts. 

Or, how about: Am I creating an omelet with onions, green pepper and cheese but only crafting two fried eggs? 



Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2018, 05:22:03 am »

OK I'll add my two cents. 

God creates, man crafts. 

Or, how about: Am I creating an omelet with onions, green pepper and cheese but only crafting two fried eggs?

Close, but regarding the fried eggs: one might possibly be eating the fried eggs?

In the hallway of my first studio, the top floor of a somewhat Dickensian block, I had framed a good replica of a fried egg. I called it Motherhood. I don't know what the females who wandered that hallway thought. They never brought it up. But then, they didn't eat it, either.

People are weird, I find.

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2018, 10:28:19 am »

Close, but regarding the fried eggs: one might possibly be eating the fried eggs?

In the hallway of my first studio, the top floor of a somewhat Dickensian block, I had framed a good replica of a fried egg. I called it Motherhood. I don't know what the females who wandered that hallway thought. They never brought it up. But then, they didn't eat it, either.

People are weird, I find.

Rob

When I was in business, I had a framed picture of Avedon's  "Natasha Kinski with Snake" on the wall behind my desk.  It was pretty risque at the time.  When people would visit me to discuss business, I would watch their eyes sneaking a peak of Natasha during our talks.  I would keep a straight face and enjoy their squirming.  I guess I was pretty weird then.  Still am.
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OpiVbMSmrHQ/ULZ8BB2vduI/AAAAAAAACnI/DljNUkPNvFg/s1600/Nastassja%2BKinski%2BPython%2B01.GIF

lewin2017

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Photography is Selection: The Art of Photography
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2018, 03:12:10 pm »

The Art of Photography:
Where an artist stands before a blank canvas or block of marble, photographic artists' begin their creativity on an already painted surface: the former through inspiration, imagination and spirit - begin placing lines and shapes (whether forming a realistic image or one of abstract qualities) that can take minutes, weeks or months to complete. The latter - sees the entire world in front of their lens - and similarly, begins the process of creativity through inspiration, imagination and spirit. The photographic artist can "see" what many do not. The art of capturing a piece of reality inside a specific frame (composition) takes as much cerebral energy as artists from other genres of art. Though, we must also contend, photography skill sets, both mentally and technically, are far easier to learn and even master, than other forms of artistic expression. Nonetheless, the photographic artist is no less an artist than a painter, one who sculptors stone or sketches with charcoal and ink.

Lance A. Lewin   
Lewins Photography Website
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2018, 10:34:35 am »

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say." (pilfered from the Internet)

Patricia Sheley

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2018, 11:09:38 am »

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say." (pilfered from the Internet)
Sounds like a perfect airport security id evaluator to me.  ;)
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A common woman~

Alan Klein

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2018, 11:10:18 am »

The Art of Photography:
Where an artist stands before a blank canvas or block of marble, photographic artists' begin their creativity on an already painted surface: the former through inspiration, imagination and spirit - begin placing lines and shapes (whether forming a realistic image or one of abstract qualities) that can take minutes, weeks or months to complete. The latter - sees the entire world in front of their lens - and similarly, begins the process of creativity through inspiration, imagination and spirit. The photographic artist can "see" what many do not. The art of capturing a piece of reality inside a specific frame (composition) takes as much cerebral energy as artists from other genres of art. Though, we must also contend, photography skill sets, both mentally and technically, are far easier to learn and even master, than other forms of artistic expression. Nonetheless, the photographic artist is no less an artist than a painter, one who sculptors stone or sketches with charcoal and ink.

Lance A. Lewin   
Lewins Photography Website


If you know how to paint, it's easier to add only the stuff you want on a canvas.  Contrarily, the photographer is stuck with all that crap that's in the scene he wants to photograph and he has to figure out a way of removing it to leave only that which counts, often a more difficult task. 

elliot_n

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2018, 01:48:33 pm »

But it is precisely 'all that crap' which makes photography distinctive and interesting.
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hermankrieger

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2018, 06:46:12 pm »

Sounds like he is dodging (or burning) the issue.
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lewin2017

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #58 on: September 27, 2018, 09:34:54 am »

I like that, Alan Klein - yes, as photographers we really are sorting through all the "clutter", as it were, in search something interesting: be it an abstract, impressionistic or realistic interpretations of the reality that defines our space.

Lance A. Lewin
Atlanta
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Rob C

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Re: Just Published - Photography is Selection
« Reply #59 on: September 27, 2018, 09:51:08 am »

If you know how to paint, it's easier to add only the stuff you want on a canvas.  Contrarily, the photographer is stuck with all that crap that's in the scene he wants to photograph and he has to figure out a way of removing it to leave only that which counts, often a more difficult task.


That's why studios use Colorama rolls. In the studios, not the toilets.

It also forces the photographers and their models to be more creative because they instantly lose the added advantage that a cleverly researched location will offer. Those advantages can consist purely of physical location-as-prop as well as the much more difficult to quantify (and price/justify) one of lending inspiration and enthusiasm without which pro photographic life is one mother of a drag. It's why some of us elected to be less wealthy but happy doing what turned us on, rather than following the money-bags mundane production line.

Rob
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