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Author Topic: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?  (Read 6112 times)

chez

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2018, 02:36:13 pm »

I doubt it will take long for Canon and Nikon to recapture their customer base who may have (temporarily) abandoned them in favor of Sony. Their new mirrorless offerings are good enough, though hardly pace-setting. It may take Canon a little longer given the old sensor technology.

I shot Canon for 25 years and moved to Sony when I needed a lighter kit which still maintained excellent image quality. Canon's releasing just good enough cameras just won't do it for me after I tasted great cameras. It's like going back to cheap wine after you acquired the taste of good wine...just won't happen.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2018, 03:19:48 pm »

I shot Canon for 25 years and moved to Sony when I needed a lighter kit which still maintained excellent image quality. Canon's releasing just good enough cameras just won't do it for me after I tasted great cameras. It's like going back to cheap wine after you acquired the taste of good wine...just won't happen.

I totally agreee with you. Loved my Canons. First one was an A1 I bought in 1981 I think it was. Not going back based on what they are currently offering.
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rdonson

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2018, 06:06:13 pm »

I bought my first Canon SLR in 1970 (Pelix) followed up a year later with the F1.  Both great cameras and the FD lenses were good for the day.  I followed up in DSLRs with Canon.

I bought a Fuji X-T1 because I wanted a lighter travel/walk-around camera.   I instantly fell in love with it.  First for the size/weight and then the controls then the image quality.  I bought an X-T2 and it was definitely a step up in image quality.  Now I'm contemplating the X-T3 after useful production camera reviews.  Fuji lenses are great.  I also appreciate the Kaizen firmware updates that Fuji is committed to.  That's something that never caught on with Canon. 

Nope, no more Canon since the X-T2.  If I need a gazillion pixels I'll likely go Fuji MF instead of 35mm sensors from Canikon. 
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johnvanatta

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2018, 01:51:14 am »

I would imagine that the Zeiss and Voigtlander MF lenses would be very easy to adapt or release for the Canon and Nikon systems... The problems with adapters tend to involve electronics for autofocus, stabilization or aperture control. Whether through an adapter or by making a version of the lens that mounts directly, a lens that is manual focus, mechanical aperture and has no lens-based stabilization is the easy case. A few such lenses have electronic aperture, and are modestly more difficult, but even that is not hard.

I tried out a chipped Voigtlander 180/4 F mount on a Z7 at one of their hands on events, and the handling was great (very brief impression only, of course). AI chipping means that even the aperture appeared to be working from the rear dial, though I didn't think to confirm it by looking down the lens to see it changing.

The larger manual focus options may end up a bit front heavy adapted, but I suspect the price of older glass, particularly Nikon, is going to jump a bit.
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John Camp

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 05:19:15 pm »

I agree with Bernard that APS-C may be a goner, except for Fuji. I think any particular stand-alone system could use any size sensor that the company wishes, and there may be some arguments for it. For mainstream cameras, though, it will be FF. There's a reason for that -- FF is a kind of sweet spot for camera-lens-sensor size/weight. The problem with APS-C is that you get less resolution for not much less money that FF and essentially the same system size/weight. The problem with MF is too much size/weight and cost, even though quality is a step up from FF. The next sweet-spot down from FF is the m4/3 systems, which offer quite a bit less size/weight but still good performance, if not at the FF level. Down another step are the RX10-type cameras, and then cell phones.

The arguments about FF systems IMHO come down to personal preference. I've always thought Canons performed as well as Nikons, but I'm a Nikon guy and I like Nikon's ergonomics better than Canon's. I understand that Canon guys feel the same, the other way around. God bless them.

I will be interested to see what Panasonic comes up with. IMHO, the interesting thing about Panasonic m4/3 cameras is that they are very high quality and in most ways superior to Sony's offerings in terms of things like weather proofing, ergonomics, glass and software. The company is also the same size as Sony (so it has money) and it has a contractual connection with Leica. If this new camera is FF, and the glass is as good as it is on the m4/3 cameras, there could be another 500-pound gorilla on the block.
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David Sutton

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 06:22:39 pm »

For mainstream cameras, though, it will be FF. There's a reason for that -- FF is a kind of sweet spot for camera-lens-sensor size/weight.

Probably not the case but certainly the perception. The thing is, a camera is part of a system. Which may include 3rd party lenses, professional support, status, ergonomics and video quality. The "sweet spot" is a bit of a moving target.
I was an early switcher from a full frame Canon to an APS-C Fuji because the the quality from the Fuji was better for what I do - printing. The system was much lighter, the files were more malleable, had better highlight detail and a little more usable resolution. If I was a wedding photographer I would have stayed with Canon because Canon had faster autofocus and didn't need a dedicated raw converter.
It may well prove to be true that perception wins out over what photographers actually need. It certainly has in the past. The decade is going to be interesting.
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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2018, 09:00:18 pm »

This idea that “APS-C is dead except maybe Fuifilm X” seems utterly detached from the reality of what the great majority of ILC camera buyers want and how much they are willing to pay for it. The entry level pricing for 36x24mm format is over four times that of entry level for the smaller formats, and most of the advantages of a larger format also require bigger, heavier and inherently more expensive lenses. This is very different from the situation with film, where 35mm format had no significant cost disadvantage compared to smaller formats (printing costs dominated over film and development costs.) No one will settle for cheaply built f/3.5-5.6 kit zooms on 36x24 format digital the way they did with consumer level 35mm film cameras.  Also, look at actual sales figures: the X system is a wonderful one, but serves a somewhat elite sector of the smaller format ILC market: the mirrorless systems from Olympus, Canon and Sony (and probably also Panasonic) outsell it, and adding in APS-C format SLRs, so do Canon EF-S and Nikon DX, by big margins.

I think a lot of very enthusiastic and demanding photographers are confusing “what I want in a system in that format” with “what will attract the most customers and revenue in the mainstream market”. The latter, it seems, is not so concerned with having dozens of wonderful but expensive and/or specialised lenses available. And my guess is that even many of those smaller format users who aspire to higher quality eventually are expecting that such an upgrade will involve a new format and new lenses to go with it, so that cross-format lens compatability is not a major marketing factor.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 09:05:24 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2018, 09:43:27 pm »

The main reason I think APS-C has no future except Fuji is that the lens line-ups were never there to please high end shooters happy with an APS-C sized sensor.

There are of course some niche such as bird shooters who are in heaven with their D500 and 200-500 f5.6 and will soon be even happier with the 500mm f5.6 PF.

But I think that the bulk of APS-C shooters is made up of people who buy a body and one or 2 kit zoom lenses and just keep it for years.

I agree that our perception is biased at LL, but I think it is biased the other way around. It is not biased because 10 FF shooters ignore 100 APS-C serious shooters. It is biased because 100 serious APS-C shooters ignore 10,000 casual APS-C camera users.

The money for camera manufactuers isn't coming from these 100 APS-C serious shooters, if it were Canon, Nikon and Sony would have developped matching high end glass for APS-C bodies, money has been coming from the 10,000 casual APS-C shooters with their zoom kit lenses.

And I think that this segment is dead to smartphones. I am not a major fan of the Northup, but there are getting it right for once in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2HQ85unDS8

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 09:47:38 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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DP

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2018, 10:09:34 pm »

and will soon be even happier with the 500mm f5.6 PF.

https://www.lenstip.com/540.10-Lens_review-Nikon_Nikkor_AF-S_500_mm_f_5.6E_PF_ED_VR_Autofocus.html

"...after setting it on the 8 meters to infinity range the focusing time decreases to about 0.3-0.4 of a second..." - that slow ???

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DP

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2018, 10:12:32 pm »

But I think that the bulk of APS-C shooters is made up of people who buy a body and one or 2 kit zoom lenses and just keep it for years.
and with proliferation of FF cameras that will FF's fate too ...
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DP

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 10:23:42 pm »

most of the advantages of a larger format also require bigger, heavier and inherently more expensive lenses.

consider for example Sony FE 85/1.8 - find cheaper AF eq in dSLM's APS-C or m43 realm... or for Sony FE 55/1.8... good luck.
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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #31 on: September 13, 2018, 08:14:51 am »

consider for example Sony FE 85/1.8 - find cheaper AF eq in dSLM's APS-C or m43 realm... or for Sony FE 55/1.8... good luck.
Some photographic needs are clearly served better by a larger format, and in particular those that benefit from large apertures: below about f/2 for primes, or by zoom lenses of f/2.8 or faster. But to repeat, a large proportion of ILC users do not need such lenses, and looking at more mainstream choices like standard and telephoto zooms (and my favorite exotic lenses, macros), the lenses that satisfy the needs of a great many users of smaller ILC formats are generally smaller and less expensive than what they would be replaced by with a larger format.

P. S. Indeed my hard-line position is that expensive exotic lenses like f/2 zooms for a smaller format make little sense if the same results can be got with an f/2.8 zoom in a larger format at similar price. I even prefer the flexibility of f/4 zoom designs over trying to match low light performance in a smaller format with a f/2.8 zoom.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 10:43:24 am by BJL »
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BJL

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All main camera brands have ... ML systems: which will survive?
« Reply #32 on: September 13, 2018, 10:39:15 am »

Bernard, the new version of your argument is more nuanced, but I am still not persuaded. The claim seems to be that:
- basic two zoom lens kits in the smaller (mainstream!) ILC formats (4/3” to 24x16mm) will be displaced by phone-cameras of comparable abilities
- the only “small format” systems that currently offer lens systems that clearly outperfom phones are Fujifilm and MFT, so only those can survive.

I suggest instead that:

1. Even that most basic two lens kit has light gathering power and telephoto reach (angular resolution) far exceeding what any pocketable, go anywhere device can do. For example the telephoto lens on the new iPhone XS Max has the FOV and effective aperture (light gathering speed) of about an f/11 short telephoto prime.

2. Every APS-C system, even EOS-M and more-so Sony E, goes significantly beyond a mere two zoom lenses, so even further beyond what a tiny-lensed phone-camera can do, regardless of software advances.

3. Canon in particular is perfectly capable of expanding lens options for a APS-C mirrorless system; it has had no need to do so yet, given the sales strength of both its M and EF-S options.

4. Any recent tapering of effort on APS-C SLR systems could be explained by something we seem to agree on: those smaller format SLR systems are edging towards retirement, now that the market leaders Canon and Nikon have dropped their disdain for the EVF alternative. And where those two lead, a lot of mainstream ILC customers follow.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 07:22:29 pm by BJL »
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Dan Wells

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2018, 05:45:37 pm »

If you don't have legacy lenses to contend with, any reasonable sensor size will do... 35mm full-frame is nothing especially optimized - it is an early 20th Century format running 35mm movie film horizontally to get a decent frame size and an easily held camera. It actually predates Oskar Barnack by a couple of decades, although Leica did popularize it.

You don't want to make the frame too small, because you can't shrink the camera beyond a certain point while still having it easy to handle. Micro 4/3 begins to run into this problem - yes, you can make smaller cameras than you can for APS-C or full frame, but they're hard to handle if you have bigger hands (and the easier m43 cameras to handle could fit an APS-C sensor, with the biggest having room for full frame). There are also parts of the camera that either can't shrink or shouldn't - you want a ~3" screen, an EVF with a reasonable eye window, and a decent-sized battery.  You don't want to make the frame too big, because the cameras and lenses start to get unwieldy. Hasselblad's H1D fits a 33x44 mm sensor in a small body, but the lenses are relatively large and you give up stabilization. Anything bigger would require very large bodies and lenses (most small film-era lens designs don't work well on digital because of the requirement that the light strikes the sensor closer to head-on) - Mamiya 6 and 7 lenses would be as much of a pain as older, tiny Leica M designs have been.

The original reason for the APS-C sensor size had nothing to do with APS film - it was just about the largest sensor that could be imaged in a single pass on the silicon wafer, and a lot of them fit on the wafer. FF sensors were nearly impossible to make in the early days of affordable digital SLRs, and were very expensive for quite a while thereafter. 

I don't know the story of why the manufacturers stuck with a 3:2 aspect ratio - I suspect simply for familiarity. At first, the R&D effort went into getting the cameras out - the manufacturers stuck with lens mounts photographers already had lenses for, and didn't bother making "digital-only" lenses for quite a while. Several popular primes worked out well - a 35mm is a very nice normal lens on APS-C, while 24mm is a moderate wide angle, 20mm is almost wide enough for a true wide angle, and 50mm is a slightly short portrait lens. Long telephotos gained reach, which nobody complained about, especially on resolution-starved early sensors. Zoom lenses were more of an issue - 70-200mm was fine (it's a useful 100-300 equivalent), while most of the zooms that started wide became markedly less useful because they lost too much coverage on the wide end.

By the time Canon, Nikon, Pentax and Minolta started making digital-specific lenses in optimized focal lengths, the vast majority of body sales were on the low end - they needed $300 lenses to go with their $1000 bodies. For the most part, that's what the digital-specific lenses were... There's no reason they couldn't have built a beautiful 18-55mm that sold for $1500 - they just (for the most part) didn't. There were a few nice APS-C lenses in their lines (and there still are) , ranging from Nikon's original 18-70 f3.3-4.5 that was the D70's kit lens to much more expensive 14mm primes, 12-whatever zooms and and f2.8 zooms.

Just as they were broadening their lines of better quality APS-C lenses, full-frame sensors became affordable enough to use in most higher-end cameras. Instead of building lenses to go with APS-C sensors, they had sensors that went with their existing lenses - Canon had 18 years of EF lenses by the time the EOS 5D was a smash hit (they also had the earlier, very expensive full-frame EOS 1Ds, but that was a specialty camera). Nikon had nearly 50 years of F-mount lenses when they started selling a lot of D700s.

The market for APS-C bodies from Canon and Nikon in the wake of the 5D and D700 was strongly skewed down, so the majority of lens designs were built for low-end bodies. Both Canon and Nikon maintained a few higher-end APS-C bodies that were crying out for great APS-C lenses (the D300/D500 line and the D7x00 line for Nikon and the 60D/70D/80D and later the 7D line for Canon), but the big sellers were Rebels and D3x00 bodies, so the innumerable 18-whatever zooms that prized price, compactness and stuffing in as much reach as possible were the order of the day.

Fuji didn't have an existing lens system that made sense for the X-Pro 1 - it was always going to be a new mount. Sales projections were low enough that a custom sensor was out of the question (it used a custom color filter on top of a standard sensor). The 16 MP Sony sensor from the Nikon D7000 (and many other cameras) was readily available and affordable. It happened to be APS-C, so Fuji started building nice lenses to go with an APS-C sensor. They ended up with something no other manufacturer has ever had - a full line of high-quality APS-C specific lenses. Canon or Nikon could have done the same thing with EF-S or DX lenses, and probably would have if FF sensors hadn't come along as film compatibility became less important.

Sony's initial foray into mirrorless with the NEX system prized extreme compactness. The first few bodies had essentially no controls on them, and were so tiny it was remarkable an APS-C sensor fit. They made the E-mount small to make sure it fit on the NEX-3 and NEX-5. Their initial lenses followed the same pattern - compactness over quality, and they have never really released the right lenses for the NEX-7 or the later a6000 series. I've never been able to figure out why they kept the mount for their full-frame line - the sensor barely fit, and it has made lens design a pain,by their own admission at one point. They didn't have any lenses that mattered - no APS-C E-mount lens covered the larger sensor, so they could have easily gone for a larger-diameter version. Their initial FE lenses were compromised, although they've released some beauties since then (not always the most compact, though).

Canon and Nikon have both gone for brand-new mounts for high-end mirrorless, and they've both picked wide, but shallow mounts for easy lens design. Why stick with a sensor size that was originally two frames of movie film? Why not something like 27x32mm, which would be about the same size with a different aspect ratio? Why not 28x34 or even 28x36mm, which would fit easily in those big mounts? Going the other way, why not a 16:9 sensor of about the same area for native 8K video (with sufficient processor power) - Panasonic, are you thinking that way? Probably because they can share sensors with their own FF DSLRs, at least in part? They both rely on lens adapters to broaden compatibility to all of their older lens designs, and a different sensor size would reduce that compatibility - even if the image circle fit, baffles in the lenses might be a problem.

Interestingly, we are reaching a convergence where sensor size and resolution are tightly correlated. Most APS-C sensors today are 24MP, with a pixel pitch very close to 4um, and those sensors are excellent performers. The high resolution FF sensors have pixel pitches a bit larger (about 4.1 - 4.5 um), for resolutions ranging from 42+ to 50MP. You gain a little bit of dynamic range and noise performance (at least on the Sony-sourced versions of those sensors), probably in part from lower base ISOs. Going to a 4um pitch on full-frame would put resolution in the 55-60 MP range - that's a small difference from what we have today, so the R&D may or may not be worth it. Both the Sony 100MP 33x44mm sensor and the 150MP "full-frame 645 (it's not quite)" sensor are right around 4um pitch sensors.

To get a meaningful increase in resolution (it would be around 36MP on APS-C and almost exactly 80MP on full-frame), would require going to a 3.3 um pixel pitch. That sensor exists, and its performance is nothing to write home about - it's the 20MP Micro 4/3 sensor. I'd far rather have a 24 MP X-H1 or a 46 MP D850 with their dynamic range and rendering  than a 36 or 80 MP camera with the dynamic range and rendering of modern Micro 4/3. It's not bad, but it doesn't have the richness of other modern sensors.

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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2018, 07:57:29 pm »

Thanks Dan Wells,

    That is a quite detailed summary of how I seen things having gone so far. Sensor shapes and sizes have ben heavily influenced by "externalities" of history, adapting video technology and so on.

My only quibbles are that:
(a) APS-C is again moving ahead of the larger format on resolution (lp/mm) with a 26MP sensor just announced, so that the fairly steady pattern of all formats increasing resolution/pixel count at about the same rate persists ever since Four Thirds was at 5MP, APS-C at 6MP and 36x24 at 11-13.5MP.

(b) Though I have no desire for final images of more than 24MP—or even the 16MP of my aging Olympus OM-D E-M5—I expect resolution increases anyway, and I will accept them for the sake of more cropping latitude when pushing the limits of telephoto or macro photography. Also, "per pixel" DR is not a very useful way to compare sensors of different pixel counts; most of the per pixel DR reduction from having more, smaller pixels on a sensor of the same size goes away in practice if one either downsamples to the lower pixel count, or simply print/display at the same size and so higher PPI (thanks to dithering). And for the images for which the per pixel DR of the higher resolution sensor is completely satisfactory, it has the advantage of more detail for more cropping latitude and so on.
So I neither much crave nor fear the inevitable increases in sensor resolution. My bet is that MFT sensors will get to 8K wide within a few years, if only for the fashion of 8K video (which I do not understand!); the pixel size needed is already there (or close enough) in Sony's 20MP 1" format sensors.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 09:54:20 pm »

Dan,

100% agreed.

And to me, the logical consequence of all that is the end of APS-C except in Fuji bodies within 2-3 years. ;)

Then, the problem that Fuji will be facing is the difficulty to get new APS-C sensors from Sony because the market may become too small to invest in.

Cheers,
Bernard

Dan Wells

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2018, 12:11:29 am »

I wonder if the recent news and rumors about Fuji playing around with just about everything other than Sony sensors are for exactly the reason Bernard states? The sensor in the X-T3 is unlikely to be a Sony (Sony wouldn't bother making one 26 MP sensor for a relatively low-volume customer when it's not meaningfully different from a 24 MP sensor). If it were 30+ MP, or if it were 24 MP but BSI and possibly stacked (memory directly behind the sensor, not a Foveon-type RGB sensor), I'd say " mildly interesting, new Sony sensor variant", but a couple of MP different suggests someone else... Then we have the recurring rumors about Fuji, Samsung and Panasonic in various combinations designing more radical sensors - organic, global shutter,  heavily video-optimized, etc.

This all makes sense if Sony is slow-walking APS-C sensor development because the market is becoming "$400 cameras and Fuji". If you want to sell a finished camera for $400 ($500 in a kit with a terrible lens), which is what a Nikon D3x00 goes for,  you probably can't afford to pay Sony more than $30-$40 for the sensor (someone like Edmund who knows far more about the chip market than I do, feel free to correct me). Fuji is building $800-$1800 cameras, and not only can they pay more for the sensor, they'd like to if it bought them better sensor-level performance. Sony may not want to build a higher end APS-C sensor that can't sell into the $400 market just for Fuji, though.

Of course the wild card is some new Sony APS-C body above the entry level - it would almost certainly feature a new sensor. It might be a new 24 MP variant, or it might be a resolution jump. If it's the 26 MP sensor, I'll be surprised that turned out to be a Sony design - it's possible that some new technology led to an accidental resolution increase (what if the space between pixels was reduced, so the same pixel size led to a slightly higher resolution sensor)? Whatever the new Sony might be, Fuji probably has access to it.

If Sony doesn't release more APS-C bodies, Fuji's other hope for Sony sensors is Nikon (big enough to get Sony moving, especially if Fuji also wants the sensor) releasing something in upper-end APS-C - potentially mirrorless. Nikon doesn't want to release a $1300 Z5 and admit "well, it's actually the D3500 sensor in a nice body"... Apart from that, Fuji needs to be sensor-shopping, and they seem to be starting.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2018, 04:55:39 am »

Dan,

100% agreed.

And to me, the logical consequence of all that is the end of APS-C except in Fuji bodies within 2-3 years. ;)

Then, the problem that Fuji will be facing is the difficulty to get new APS-C sensors from Sony because the market may become too small to invest in.

Cheers,
Bernard

IMO, if that will happen, it will take far more than 2-3 years. Right now, the best selling ILC are the entry level DSLR: 1 camera + 1 kit zoom (+ maybe a kit telezoom) = done deal, at very affordable prices.

JaapD

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2018, 05:27:55 am »

I don’t know if Fuji actually ‘needs’ to be sensor shopping. The market for APS-C sensors is still very interesting for Sony, just as with FF and medium FMT sensors. Apart from this many of today’s sensor designs are scalable in size where for instance a 4 micron BSI cell can be utilized for 4/3, APS-C as well as larger designs. Therefore it is no coincidence that we are now going to see all kinds of BSI sensors in various chip sizes.

But there are opportunities. Samsung has the capabilities to manufacture great BSI sensors as well, such as the NX1 sensor. It is also known that organic sensor development, a Fujifilm and Panasonic collaboration, is already running for quite some years and I expect commercial products to arrive sooner than later. Possibly first to arrive in a Panasonic camera? With this I have high expectations in further reduction of pixel size while maintaining noise levels and dynamic range.

Regards,
Jaap.
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chez

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2018, 09:55:32 am »

Dan,

100% agreed.

And to me, the logical consequence of all that is the end of APS-C except in Fuji bodies within 2-3 years. ;)

Then, the problem that Fuji will be facing is the difficulty to get new APS-C sensors from Sony because the market may become too small to invest in.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well in the first 6 months of this year, APS-C and smaller lenses outsold FF and larger lenses by more than a 2 to 1 ratio according to CIPA figures. Seems like smaller format is still going strong.
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