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Author Topic: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?  (Read 6111 times)

Guillermo Luijk

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Now with the Nikon Z and Canon R mirrorless systems we can say all main camera brands are finally developing serious ML systems. Some argue this took too long from the launch of MFT in 2008 to make mirrorless a game changer. Putting things into perspective, and even with the Canikon duopoly delaying the transition as much as they could, my opinion is that the introduction of mirrorless has been quite fast for a reason: it works. DSLR digital cameras are just analogue devices with film replaced by a sensor, far from being truly digital devices as any point and shoot compact camera or mobile device are.



The F and EF mount have been Nikon and Canon workhorses for 60 and 32 years now, but in the digital era (2003 onwards) managed to survive without a mirrorless option from their brands only for the last 16 years.

Thoughts?

Rado

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2018, 02:07:20 pm »

It's not a game changer (a phrase that is now almost meaningless anyway). At best mirrorless replaces some suckage of DSLR systems (e.g. crappy manual focusing) with another suckage (e.g. focus by wire lenses).
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adriantyler

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2018, 03:28:13 pm »

it did take too long, stagnation & perhaps not wanting to upset existing business seems to be the best answer. however, let's see if they learn from this, that nikon z mount has a large enough flange to put a bigger sensor in, that would be good if they kept the price point!
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rdonson

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2018, 09:27:02 pm »

If Canikon waited another 5 years they might have gone the Kodak route.  As it is I'm sure they'll return to strength although Sony, Fuji, Oly, Panny, et al are not going to slow up.  They've all found niches that they will defend aggressively.  At some point though 35mm sensors won't seem to be the panacea they seem to some these days. 
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Regards,
Ron

BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2018, 12:27:54 am »

Funny how to consecutive posts predict exact opposite things... ;)
- going towards APS-C
- going towards larger sensors

There is really a lot of diversity among photographers, btwn their wants, they needs,...

I personally hope that Nikon will not go larger than 35mm, I hope also they will drop APS-C progressively moving forward and concentrate on delivering the best 35mm system. This is IMHO where sustainable revenue is to be found and the sensor size with the best compromise between body compactness and very high image quality.
- I find cameras smaller than the Z7 too small to handle seriously in a variety of situations,
- I find the quality to be gained by 33x44mm sensor not to be significant considering the downsides (lesser abilities, larger lenses,...).

I'll be willing to pay a premium for top quality glass.

Cheers,
Bernard

SrMi

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2018, 12:33:41 am »

Still waiting for a mirrorless camera that can AF-C as good and fast as my Nikon DSLRs (darn, I must try that A9), and still waiting for a mirrorless camera that can start-up and switch between play and record in less than .5 seconds.

In the meantime, I am having fun with whatever is out there, mirrorless or not :-).
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Telecaster

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2018, 04:28:56 pm »

I think Generation Smartdevice is gonna run a rototiller through the entire ILC market landscape (excuse the metaphorical maintenance) before long.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 04:32:30 pm by Telecaster »
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Rand47

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2018, 05:26:54 pm »

It's not a game changer (a phrase that is now almost meaningless anyway). At best mirrorless replaces some suckage of DSLR systems (e.g. crappy manual focusing) with another suckage (e.g. focus by wire lenses).

Man, you owe me.  When I read your dual-suckage comment above I think I might have ruined my keyboard with the coffee I spewed laughing.  Good one.  Yeah, if there’s one thing I actually HATE about my Fuji cameras it is fly-by-wire manual focus.  It is like driving a ‘59 Caddy with power steering and really soft suspension, combined with under inflated tires. 

At least Fuji now has a ‘linear’ mode where the rate of change is constant while focusing, rather than the “faster you spin the faster the focus changes.”  And, I’m looking forward to seeing if their “fake microprisim” focusing aid on the new X-T3 is worth a darn.  Focus peaking is better than nothing, but that ain’t saying much.

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

FabienP

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2018, 06:07:47 pm »

Man, you owe me.  When I read your dual-suckage comment above I think I might have ruined my keyboard with the coffee I spewed laughing.  Good one.  Yeah, if there’s one thing I actually HATE about my Fuji cameras it is fly-by-wire manual focus.  It is like driving a ‘59 Caddy with power steering and really soft suspension, combined with under inflated tires. 

At least Fuji now has a ‘linear’ mode where the rate of change is constant while focusing, rather than the “faster you spin the faster the focus changes.”  And, I’m looking forward to seeing if their “fake microprisim” focusing aid on the new X-T3 is worth a darn.  Focus peaking is better than nothing, but that ain’t saying much.

Rand

This would be a game changer ;D in itself, i.e. restore the previous behaviour with manual focus lenses. I still don't understand if the non-linearity:
  • was meant as an improvement over the existing paradigm with manual focus lenses;
  • was the work of an influential and well-intentioned person who was totally clueless about manual focussing;
  • is an inherent limitation of focus by wire design that can't be easily changed without making lenses bulkier or more expensive.

I would appreciate any insight in this matter.

Meanwhile, it is possible to have the best of both worlds (EVF and manual focus lenses) with Zeiss and Voigtländer lenses on Sony FE systems. With the exception of the manual focus lens by Nikon (58mm f/0.95), there is no clear commitment that manual focus lenses wil be developed for the new Canikon mirrorless systems.

Cheers,

Fabien
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Dan Wells

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2018, 06:36:40 pm »

I would imagine that the Zeiss and Voigtlander MF lenses would be very easy to adapt or release for the Canon and Nikon systems... The problems with adapters tend to involve electronics for autofocus, stabilization or aperture control. Whether through an adapter or by making a version of the lens that mounts directly, a lens that is manual focus, mechanical aperture and has no lens-based stabilization is the easy case. A few such lenses have electronic aperture, and are modestly more difficult, but even that is not hard.

Nikon has one advantage in that case - the lenses gain stabilization from the body...
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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2018, 06:43:38 pm »

Funny how to consecutive posts predict exact opposite things... ;)

And even paragraphs within the same post:

There is really a lot of diversity among photographers, btwn their wants, they needs,...

Indeed, including those for whom a format like MFT or APS-C is ideal now (and vastly more capable that a phone can ever be, due to the realities of optics), and with improving technology these formats will giv ven better results, giving even less reason to change to the inevitably larger and more expensive kit of a larger format.

And yet:

I personally hope that Nikon will not go larger than 35mm, I hope also they will drop APS-C ... This is ... the sensor size with the best compromise between body compactness and very high image quality.

So somehow all these diverse want and needs will be best served by one single ILC format; the one that is a relic of designs trade-offs based on what film was capable of almost a century ago!

P. S. I instead see a persistent role for ILC formats as small as 4/3", and at least as large as 36x24mm (I have no opinion either way on the long-term future of the larger formats): that range is only a linear factor of two; far less variation than film formats offered.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:47:09 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2018, 06:46:59 pm »

So somehow all these diverse want and needs will be best served by one single ILC format; the one that is a relic of designs trade-offs based on what film was capable of almost a century ago!

Just a coincidence obviously, but it turns out that this was just about perfect.

Cheers,
Bernard

BJL

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All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. I doubt it took too long
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2018, 09:03:17 pm »

It is natural for the brands that dominate with one technology to be slower than others in adopting a new alternative: in the early days when a new option allows an "insurgent" to take sales from incumbents, the incumbents will initially see it mainly poaching sales from their own existing product lines. But they can also afford to enter later and catch up, if they have enough ability to leverage existing advantages (lenses, technology that carries over, brand goodwill, market presence, financial resources, etc.), and can benefit from letting the insurgents try various approaches and make some mistakes, and then step in when the best approach is clearer, the new technology is more mature, and its advantages are more widely recognized. I doubt that Canon and Nikon have both mis-timed their entries to the "serious EVF camera" market.

P. S. EVFs and focus-by-wire are not tied together; there have been FBW lenses for SLRs (including many for Four Thirds DSLRs), and direct manual focus coupling in some lenses for EVF cameras. Some high-end Olympus MFT lenses allow switching between both options.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. I doubt it took too long
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2018, 09:26:42 pm »

It is natural for the brands that dominate with one technology to be slower than others in adopting a new alternative: in the early days when a new option allows an "insurgent" to take sales from incumbents, the incumbents will initially see it mainly poaching sales from their own existing product lines. But they can also afford to enter later and catch up, if they have enough ability to leverage existing advantages (lenses, technology that carries over, brand goodwill, market presence, financial resources, etc.), and can benefit from letting the insurgents try various approaches and make some mistakes, and then step in when the best approach is clearer, the new technology is more mature, and its advantages are more widely recognized. I doubt that Canon and Nikon have both mis-timed their entries to the "serious EVF camera" market.

Yes, I agree. I believe that both got their timing mostly right.

Btw, on the size of the sensors, I have just read this article from Thom that pretty much echoes my views: https://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-2018-news/september-2018-nikon-news/i-see-dead-mounts.html

In short, APS-C is dead except probably Fuji. But then again, I played for the first time with a X-H1 a few days back and was surprised by its size. It is larger than the recent FF mirrorless (Sony, Nikon, Canon). I am not sure what the point is of going for a larger body with a small sensor really. I am pretty sure that the pro versions of the mirrorless bodies at Nikon and Canon will be a bit larger than the current Z7/R, but still...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 09:30:32 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. I doubt it took too long
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2018, 09:51:47 pm »

Btw, on the size of the sensors, I have just read this article from Thom that pretty much echoes my views: https://dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-2018-news/september-2018-nikon-news/i-see-dead-mounts.html

In short, APS-C is dead except probably Fuji.
Is that what he is saying? I think his predictions of demise are for most current "APS-C" mounts, but in large part due to the SLR mounts being displaced by mirrorless systems.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. I doubt it took too long
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 10:44:24 pm »

Is that what he is saying? I think his predictions of demise are for most current "APS-C" mounts, but in large part due to the SLR mounts being displaced by mirrorless systems.

Well, his forecast isn’t very optimistic for Sony and Canon APS-C mirrorless either.

Which seems to be backed up by poor lens line-ups and very few new releases.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2018, 02:27:06 am »

I really like the Sony APSC cameras and it’s a major reason I will stick with the system. I don’t know if the system is dead or not. I’m not so confident making these predictions but I hope it continues. For over a year when I first went mirrorless I shot literally everything on two APSC cameras and made a reasonable living while doing so. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right decision going FF. Non of my clients ask about file size anymore. Seems those days are over.

On the question as to did Canon and Nikon wait too long to enter mirrorless I think the answer is a yes. Now we talk about Canon Sony Nikon. That is a result of Sony having a three year head start I think. It was a two way race now there is very definately three competitors. Take emotion and legacy lens systems out of it and I really think Sony has the best system at the moment. The only negative I see is the weather sealing. Ergonomics is very subjective and I am very comfortable with the Sony menus after an admittedly frustrating adjustment period. What ever the fans of the various systems feel it is hard to pretend that Sony isn’t a serious contender.
 
Anyway it turns out I don’t need anything at the moment. I see nothing that I don’t have that will make me more competitive in my industry or more creative with my personal projects. I will let it all sit for a year or two and then see. There is always an amateur with loads of money that didn’t like photography as much as they expected dumping gear or chasing the latest thing in a misguided attempt to improve their work and I tend to buy my equipment from those people. I kind of expected either Nikon or Canon to come up with something that would tempt me but it didn’t happen.

So yes they took too long and what they come up with wasn’t measurably better FOR ME than what I currently have   
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Littlefield

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. I doubt it took too long
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2018, 07:21:39 am »

Well, his forecast isn’t very optimistic for Sony and Canon APS-C mirrorless either.

Which seems to be backed up by poor lens line-ups and very few new releases.

Cheers,
Bernard

Guess no new fantastic 7D lll ? LOL  I think Canon may make one but it will not be mirrorless.
Don
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BJL

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2018, 09:50:52 am »

Thom Hogan seems to ignore the great majority of smaller format ILC buyers who either (a) aspire only to a distinctly “non-professional” kit, well met by current E lens offerings (and maybe even by Canon’s “M” lenses, and (b) those who accept that any future upgrade to a larger format will involve a new set of lenses. Even so, “M” is particularly limited except for those relying partly on adapted EF lenses, and if those fade away in favor of R lenses, continued viability would require adding more “M” lenses. Which Canon is perfectly capable of, if and when changing circumstances were to require it; clearly that has not been needed yet, given the surprisingly strong sales growth of the M system so far.

In short, I tend to trust the “dinasaurs” (C and N) to adjust to changing situations on a “just in time” basis.
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faberryman

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Re: All main camera brands have now serious ML systems. Did it take too long?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2018, 02:22:30 pm »

I doubt it will take long for Canon and Nikon to recapture their customer base who may have (temporarily) abandoned them in favor of Sony. Their new mirrorless offerings are good enough, though hardly pace-setting. It may take Canon a little longer given the old sensor technology.
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