Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users

[douglevy]

I know what I'm going to do, but am interested in what others plans are. In the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.  If you're an H user do you:

1-Sell the whole system now, it's never going to be worth more and then buy into a Phase XF system with something like a Credo 50 preowned, IQ150 etc. (which wouldn't be cheap, even with good prices for my current gear)
2-Sell the whole system and go back to 35mm and my D850
3-Wait a few years, there will be a IQ100 available used that will be the best last back for this system.
4-Wait a few years and keep the Credo, but buy a IQ50mp back for high ISO use when the used prices drop.

I'm a portrait photographer (www.douglaslevy.com) and use the system for most of my lit work (probably 70% of what I do). With a CMOS back that probably jumps to 90%. Curious what others' plans are.

[Bo_Dez]

I am in the same boat. Goodbye Phase One. I'm likely going to dump the lot of it while it still has some value and move to 100MP Mirrorless. I may look at the Hasselblad H6 or 7 150MP offering.

I was on the verge of staying and now they've made that decision easy.

I suspect they are a sinking ship anyway.

[douglevy]

That's part of my problem. I won't move to an H back because of Phocus, C1 is too important a part of my workflow.

[Bo_Dez]

Yeah, I understand that. I am in the same boat.

From my own personal perspective, I think Phase One is in a very precarious position right now, all their funds sunk into an obsolete system and no sign or discussion about a mirrorless in the future.

I'm not going to sink in an extra few ten thousand dollars for a kit that has a potentially limited future. I would rather change my workflow and adapt to Phocus.

I might consider a Phase One mirrorless, but frankly right now I am so angry at this company they can go and jam it. But if I have to sell up anyway, to change to mirrorless, then I may as well vote with my wallet and leave now.

IMO - Bad move Phase One. Bad Move. When a camera company start dictating what a photographer has to do then, IMO, they put themselves in a very awkward position. It's just a camera and I won't have a camera dictate such things. It's replaceable by alternatives which are actually more attractive these days at a fraction of the cost.

[douglevy]

Yeah. At the moment I'm going to sit tight, it still works for what I need it to do. It will still be a long time before they stop repairing IQ backs, so a used 150/250/350/100 is probably in my future in a few years.

[BernardLanguillier]

For what it's worth, Lightroom works really well on my H6D-100c files.

I am staying put for now, I believe there is a future for the H system in the form of a mirrorless H7D.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Bo_Dez]

Thanks, that is a good point. I've being using Lightroom since it's inception and that is a realistic and feasible change.

A mirrorless H7 would be incredible.

[eronald]

As far as I can see, Phase now have only ONE product, the 150MP XF system.

I think those who like the XF and can afford the price will stay, and everyone else doing high end portrait or fashion with MF will upgrade to H backs or move to Hassy mirrorless and Lightroom because of the leaf shutters.

Problem is, H will also probably go away in one or two revs.

Maybe used MF will become a fashion

Edmund

[JoeKitchen]

When a camera company start dictating what a photographer has to do then, IMO, they put themselves in a very awkward position. It's just a camera and I won't have a camera dictate such things. It's replaceable by alternatives which are actually more attractive these days at a fraction of the cost.

I'll never forget a photography professor telling me in the 70s Kodak stop listening to photographers, and just started telling them we know best and this is what you get.  He always considered it the beginning of the end for Kodak. 

[siddhaarta]

As far as I can see, Phase now have only ONE product, the 150MP XF system.

Edmund

I think they have some more products: 1) the 150, 2) the 150 achromatic, 3) the 100 (in two blends), 4) the 100 achromatic, and even some new-old-stock CCD sensor backs.

What they don't have anymore is a basic kit (standard lens, body, back) that costs less then 30.000 USD.

[Doug Peterson]

I think they have some more products: 1) the 150, 2) the 150 achromatic, 3) the 100 (in two blends), 4) the 100 achromatic, and even some new-old-stock CCD sensor backs.

What they don't have anymore is a basic kit (standard lens, body, back) that costs less then 30.000 USD.

We have CPO kits with warranty, dealer support, training, new accessories, IQ back, XF body, and Schneider blue-ring leaf shutter lens starting at $13k.

[eronald]

Doug is a very nice guy, and I am sure he will attempt to take care of his customers; I'm also sure not only that he doesn't set policy, but also he never agreed with this policy of shafting H users.

I'd guess Hasselblad dealers will love this situation and find a way out for their customers

Edmund

[siddhaarta]

We have CPO kits with warranty, dealer support, training, new accessories, IQ back, XF body, and Schneider blue-ring leaf shutter lens starting at $13k.

I still use a P25-back on my Contax 645 and I admit that I was last week tempted to buy a new IQ50-XF-80mm kit, for which DT had a special offer at their new shop-site (I think it was 15k). C1 is a wonderful piece of software and I even like the XF and the Danish/Scandinavian design philosophy and corporate culture of perfectionism, all things, I can imagine to invest in. But then I thought about the narrative and perspectives for the future and decided, it will not be for me, why?

1) the upgrade trap: all these relatively cheap new-old-stock or CPO offers will expire soon enough and then there will be left only these absurdly overpriced 645 backs: 22k to upgrade from a 100MP to the new 150MP back, this is ludicrous ... you lost me here.

2) the lenses: yes, there are some gems, but there are also still too much slouches at strategic points in the line-up (think 28/55/80/150). If P1 had the consistency and the breath-taking quality and character of Leica S line-up, yes that would be a big selling point, but they have not (yes I compared some lenses in the field). And even if SK manages to close these gaps in the next x years (nobody knows as there is no roadmap), the future lies in new lens designs, optimized for the shorter flange distance of mirrorless cameras, which shows especially with the wide angles. The Hasselblad XCD 30mm, for instance, has a much better corner performance than the praised BR 35mm (I won't even bother to compare the P1 28mm with the new Hasselblad XCD 21mm or the Fuji GF 23mm)(see also my recent analysis). Adapting older lenses of other brands (think Zeiss, Leica), not possible because of the flange distance, using BR lenses with mirrorless cameras (not possible because of electronics).

3) the weight: yeah, I made a simulation for a whole system between Hasselblad X1D and Phase One XF, result: the P1 weighs twice. I still need my healthy back in the future and I am not a studio or 4x4 photographer.

4) the C1 policy: as there are no signs of P1 mirrorless cameras at the horizon, a lot of photographers (and I would do the same) have Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D as backup or hiking system, only that they can not use C1 for consistent results. If I would be a P1/C1 customer, I would be pissed off every day by this short-sighted policy (déjà-vu hybrid H-P1 photographers).

5) will there even be a visible difference in image quality between "crop" Hasselblad XD/Fuji GFX and "full" P1, when the new BSI 100MP sensors arrive. I assume not, the resolution difference is not very big, the Hasselblad and Fuji lens line-ups are more consistent and modern designs than the SK, and at least the Hasselblad colors are sublime. I am not even talking about the potential advantages in practical use like: precise focusing with EVF or IBIS. So what is left: some specialized advantages like modular backs for tech cameras, better tethering, viewing experience with OVF, etc.

Sorry P1, with these perspectives, I fear, it will be difficult to gain a considerable number of new customers ...

[eronald]

Just for fun, I would like to point out that Phase high margins on their IQ products may encourage them to stay as long as possible with the dSLR product line, rather than just chop it.So IQ may be a solid investment for institutions and affluent photographers with a client base and an established working process.

On the other hand my feeling is Hassy will soon be tempted to cut and run, dumping the H and moving entirely to the XD. Otherwise they would have to start bringing out new lenses suitable for a post 150MP world, just like Phase have been moving to BR lenses and that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Also the H lenses are old tech and made by Fuji, who are now a direct competitor in this very small medium format niche so there will be increasing stress in negotiating for such a tuneup.

Dumping the H might make sense for Hassy's owners as it gives them an opportunity to cut some legacy staff, and also offer an opportunity to redeploy some valuable designers and software developers.


Edmund

[Rob_Strovich]

I'm on the same boat too... I'm using a Contax 645 with a P65+ back, which I really love but we live in 2018 and I can't do everything at max Iso 200...

I'm waiting to see if Fuji is going to the 100mpx GFX, even the 50mpx is really good. I have tested the system even with Canon TS lenses and it shows really good quality (17 and 24). Maybe a GFX and a couple of X-T3 for fast work and video seems to be a good option, and a convergence of color palettes too... (and I can use the con tax lenses on the GFX with an adapter).

Talk soon.. after Photokina


Rob

[siddhaarta]

Just for fun, I would like to point out that Phase high margins on their IQ products may encourage them to stay as long as possible with the dSLR product line, rather than just chop it.So IQ may be a solid investment for institutions and affluent photographers with a client base and an established working process.

On the other hand my feeling is Hassy will soon be tempted to cut and run, dumping the H and moving entirely to the XD. Otherwise they would have to start bringing out new lenses suitable for a post 150MP world, just like Phase have been moving to BR lenses and that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Also the H lenses are old tech and made by Fuji, who are now a direct competitor in this very small medium format niche so there will be increasing stress in negotiating for such a tuneup.

Dumping the H might make sense for Hassy's owners as it gives them an opportunity to cut some legacy staff, and also offer an opportunity to redeploy some valuable designers and software developers.


Edmund

If Hasselblad dumps their HD line, that would be great for P1, so they would be monopolist in their high margin niche (prepare for more pricing creativity).

Hasselblad could introduce an XD line for the full 645 sensor, but needed to develop a second lens line. I am not sure whether that makes commercial sense.

P1 could develop a mirrorless 645 system, but needed an agile partner to develop quickly a new lens line-up. They could even develop a mirrorless system maintaining their modular backs. This would please their Arca/Alpa/Cambo customers. But lets face it, there are enough alternatives now to do movements with GFX and even X1D, and the Rodenstock lenses are the only dinosaurier still surviving, for how much time ...

[eronald]

Hassy is now a major camera brand because the new DJI drone cameras are branded Hassy; this gives DJI an incentive to support the brand at the very top, past commercial realities. As long as DJI keeps its own monopolistic position in the drone market.

I think Phase would have liked to do high-end prosumer mirrorless but Fuji and Hassy have first mover advantage there. They may be locked in their niche.

Edmund

If Hasselblad dumps their HD line, that would be great for P1, so they would be monopolist in their high margin niche.

Hasselblad could introduce an XD line for the full 645 sensor, but needed to develop a second lens line. I am not sure whether that makes commercial sense.

P1 could develop a mirrorless 645 system, but needed an agile partner to develop quickly a new lens line-up. They could even develop a mirrorless system maintaining their modular backs. This would please their Arca/Alpa/Cambo customers. But lets face it, there are enough alternatives now to do movements with GFX and even X1D, and the Rodenstock lenses are the only dinosaurier still surviving, for how much time ...

[BernardLanguillier]

Why would Hassy give away the highend to P1 when they have all the technological building blocks (X1D/X2D) to end the game by releasing a 645 mirrorless camera with a very modest investment?

The main problem of MF are focusing and mirror vibrations, mirrorless solves that. Yes, battery life may be poor...

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Being a Vulcan I would suggest it would be logical to switch to Hasselblad for new MFD sensors. If you are happy with your Credo 60, why not just hang on to it?

Depending on your usage, the future may belong to mirrorless, think Hassy X1D org GFX.

Skipping Team Phase One means ditching C1. If you want to use C1, you can stay with TPO or switch to non MFD like D850 et al.

Some Hasselblad shooters switch to LR with no real sadness at all...

Best regards
Erik

I know what I'm going to do, but am interested in what others plans are. In the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.  If you're an H user do you:

1-Sell the whole system now, it's never going to be worth more and then buy into a Phase XF system with something like a Credo 50 preowned, IQ150 etc. (which wouldn't be cheap, even with good prices for my current gear)
2-Sell the whole system and go back to 35mm and my D850
3-Wait a few years, there will be a IQ100 available used that will be the best last back for this system.
4-Wait a few years and keep the Credo, but buy a IQ50mp back for high ISO use when the used prices drop.

I'm a portrait photographer (www.douglaslevy.com) and use the system for most of my lit work (probably 70% of what I do). With a CMOS back that probably jumps to 90%. Curious what others' plans are.

[siddhaarta]

Some Hasselblad shooters switch to LR with no real sadness at all...

Best regards
Erik

I have been using Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Olympus, Sony, Leica and Hasselblad with LR. And compared to the color and noise output that gave me the respective native software, only Leica and Hasselblad files have been satisfactory with LR (o.k.,Leica does not even have native software). Nevertheless, if C1 would open up to MFD competitors, I would certainly buy a C1 license and use that exclusively, not least because I don't like Adobes subscription model.