Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: douglevy on September 06, 2018, 08:20:37 am

Title: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 06, 2018, 08:20:37 am
I know what I'm going to do, but am interested in what others plans are. In the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.  If you're an H user do you:

1-Sell the whole system now, it's never going to be worth more and then buy into a Phase XF system with something like a Credo 50 preowned, IQ150 etc. (which wouldn't be cheap, even with good prices for my current gear)
2-Sell the whole system and go back to 35mm and my D850
3-Wait a few years, there will be a IQ100 available used that will be the best last back for this system.
4-Wait a few years and keep the Credo, but buy a IQ50mp back for high ISO use when the used prices drop.

I'm a portrait photographer (www.douglaslevy.com) and use the system for most of my lit work (probably 70% of what I do). With a CMOS back that probably jumps to 90%. Curious what others' plans are.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 06, 2018, 08:36:02 am
I am in the same boat. Goodbye Phase One. I'm likely going to dump the lot of it while it still has some value and move to 100MP Mirrorless. I may look at the Hasselblad H6 or 7 150MP offering.

I was on the verge of staying and now they've made that decision easy.

I suspect they are a sinking ship anyway.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 06, 2018, 08:37:22 am
That's part of my problem. I won't move to an H back because of Phocus, C1 is too important a part of my workflow.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 06, 2018, 08:47:38 am
Yeah, I understand that. I am in the same boat.

From my own personal perspective, I think Phase One is in a very precarious position right now, all their funds sunk into an obsolete system and no sign or discussion about a mirrorless in the future.

I'm not going to sink in an extra few ten thousand dollars for a kit that has a potentially limited future. I would rather change my workflow and adapt to Phocus.

I might consider a Phase One mirrorless, but frankly right now I am so angry at this company they can go and jam it. But if I have to sell up anyway, to change to mirrorless, then I may as well vote with my wallet and leave now.

IMO - Bad move Phase One. Bad Move. When a camera company start dictating what a photographer has to do then, IMO, they put themselves in a very awkward position. It's just a camera and I won't have a camera dictate such things. It's replaceable by alternatives which are actually more attractive these days at a fraction of the cost.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 06, 2018, 08:50:53 am
Yeah. At the moment I'm going to sit tight, it still works for what I need it to do. It will still be a long time before they stop repairing IQ backs, so a used 150/250/350/100 is probably in my future in a few years.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 09:05:41 am
For what it's worth, Lightroom works really well on my H6D-100c files.

I am staying put for now, I believe there is a future for the H system in the form of a mirrorless H7D.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 06, 2018, 09:26:29 am
Thanks, that is a good point. I've being using Lightroom since it's inception and that is a realistic and feasible change.

A mirrorless H7 would be incredible.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 06, 2018, 10:13:06 am
As far as I can see, Phase now have only ONE product, the 150MP XF system.

I think those who like the XF and can afford the price will stay, and everyone else doing high end portrait or fashion with MF will upgrade to H backs or move to Hassy mirrorless and Lightroom because of the leaf shutters.

Problem is, H will also probably go away in one or two revs.

Maybe used MF will become a fashion ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: JoeKitchen on September 06, 2018, 11:19:17 am
When a camera company start dictating what a photographer has to do then, IMO, they put themselves in a very awkward position. It's just a camera and I won't have a camera dictate such things. It's replaceable by alternatives which are actually more attractive these days at a fraction of the cost.

I'll never forget a photography professor telling me in the 70s Kodak stop listening to photographers, and just started telling them we know best and this is what you get.  He always considered it the beginning of the end for Kodak. 
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: siddhaarta on September 06, 2018, 06:36:14 pm
As far as I can see, Phase now have only ONE product, the 150MP XF system.

Edmund

I think they have some more products: 1) the 150, 2) the 150 achromatic, 3) the 100 (in two blends), 4) the 100 achromatic, and even some new-old-stock CCD sensor backs.

What they don't have anymore is a basic kit (standard lens, body, back) that costs less then 30.000 USD.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Doug Peterson on September 06, 2018, 07:23:56 pm
I think they have some more products: 1) the 150, 2) the 150 achromatic, 3) the 100 (in two blends), 4) the 100 achromatic, and even some new-old-stock CCD sensor backs.

What they don't have anymore is a basic kit (standard lens, body, back) that costs less then 30.000 USD.

We have CPO kits with warranty, dealer support, training, new accessories, IQ back, XF body, and Schneider blue-ring leaf shutter lens starting at $13k.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 06, 2018, 07:40:47 pm

Doug is a very nice guy, and I am sure he will attempt to take care of his customers; I'm also sure not only that he doesn't set policy, but also he never agreed with this policy of shafting H users.

I'd guess Hasselblad dealers will love this situation and find a way out for their customers :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: siddhaarta on September 06, 2018, 09:40:46 pm
We have CPO kits with warranty, dealer support, training, new accessories, IQ back, XF body, and Schneider blue-ring leaf shutter lens starting at $13k.

I still use a P25-back on my Contax 645 and I admit that I was last week tempted to buy a new IQ50-XF-80mm kit, for which DT had a special offer at their new shop-site (I think it was 15k). C1 is a wonderful piece of software and I even like the XF and the Danish/Scandinavian design philosophy and corporate culture of perfectionism, all things, I can imagine to invest in. But then I thought about the narrative and perspectives for the future and decided, it will not be for me, why?

1) the upgrade trap: all these relatively cheap new-old-stock or CPO offers will expire soon enough and then there will be left only these absurdly overpriced 645 backs: 22k to upgrade from a 100MP to the new 150MP back, this is ludicrous ... you lost me here.

2) the lenses: yes, there are some gems, but there are also still too much slouches at strategic points in the line-up (think 28/55/80/150). If P1 had the consistency and the breath-taking quality and character of Leica S line-up, yes that would be a big selling point, but they have not (yes I compared some lenses in the field). And even if SK manages to close these gaps in the next x years (nobody knows as there is no roadmap), the future lies in new lens designs, optimized for the shorter flange distance of mirrorless cameras, which shows especially with the wide angles. The Hasselblad XCD 30mm, for instance, has a much better corner performance than the praised BR 35mm (I won't even bother to compare the P1 28mm with the new Hasselblad XCD 21mm or the Fuji GF 23mm)(see also my recent analysis) (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=126511.msg1064774#msg1064774). Adapting older lenses of other brands (think Zeiss, Leica), not possible because of the flange distance, using BR lenses with mirrorless cameras (not possible because of electronics).

3) the weight: yeah, I made a simulation for a whole system between Hasselblad X1D and Phase One XF, result: the P1 weighs twice. I still need my healthy back in the future and I am not a studio or 4x4 photographer.

4) the C1 policy: as there are no signs of P1 mirrorless cameras at the horizon, a lot of photographers (and I would do the same) have Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D as backup or hiking system, only that they can not use C1 for consistent results. If I would be a P1/C1 customer, I would be pissed off every day by this short-sighted policy (déjà-vu hybrid H-P1 photographers).

5) will there even be a visible difference in image quality between "crop" Hasselblad XD/Fuji GFX and "full" P1, when the new BSI 100MP sensors arrive. I assume not, the resolution difference is not very big, the Hasselblad and Fuji lens line-ups are more consistent and modern designs than the SK, and at least the Hasselblad colors are sublime. I am not even talking about the potential advantages in practical use like: precise focusing with EVF or IBIS. So what is left: some specialized advantages like modular backs for tech cameras, better tethering, viewing experience with OVF, etc.

Sorry P1, with these perspectives, I fear, it will be difficult to gain a considerable number of new customers ...

Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 06, 2018, 09:48:02 pm
Just for fun, I would like to point out that Phase high margins on their IQ products may encourage them to stay as long as possible with the dSLR product line, rather than just chop it.So IQ may be a solid investment for institutions and affluent photographers with a client base and an established working process.

On the other hand my feeling is Hassy will soon be tempted to cut and run, dumping the H and moving entirely to the XD. Otherwise they would have to start bringing out new lenses suitable for a post 150MP world, just like Phase have been moving to BR lenses and that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Also the H lenses are old tech and made by Fuji, who are now a direct competitor in this very small medium format niche so there will be increasing stress in negotiating for such a tuneup.

Dumping the H might make sense for Hassy's owners as it gives them an opportunity to cut some legacy staff, and also offer an opportunity to redeploy some valuable designers and software developers.


Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Rob_Strovich on September 07, 2018, 09:08:14 am
I'm on the same boat too... I'm using a Contax 645 with a P65+ back, which I really love but we live in 2018 and I can't do everything at max Iso 200...

I'm waiting to see if Fuji is going to the 100mpx GFX, even the 50mpx is really good. I have tested the system even with Canon TS lenses and it shows really good quality (17 and 24). Maybe a GFX and a couple of X-T3 for fast work and video seems to be a good option, and a convergence of color palettes too... (and I can use the con tax lenses on the GFX with an adapter).

Talk soon.. after Photokina ;)


Rob
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: siddhaarta on September 07, 2018, 09:39:56 am
Just for fun, I would like to point out that Phase high margins on their IQ products may encourage them to stay as long as possible with the dSLR product line, rather than just chop it.So IQ may be a solid investment for institutions and affluent photographers with a client base and an established working process.

On the other hand my feeling is Hassy will soon be tempted to cut and run, dumping the H and moving entirely to the XD. Otherwise they would have to start bringing out new lenses suitable for a post 150MP world, just like Phase have been moving to BR lenses and that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Also the H lenses are old tech and made by Fuji, who are now a direct competitor in this very small medium format niche so there will be increasing stress in negotiating for such a tuneup.

Dumping the H might make sense for Hassy's owners as it gives them an opportunity to cut some legacy staff, and also offer an opportunity to redeploy some valuable designers and software developers.


Edmund

If Hasselblad dumps their HD line, that would be great for P1, so they would be monopolist in their high margin niche (prepare for more pricing creativity).

Hasselblad could introduce an XD line for the full 645 sensor, but needed to develop a second lens line. I am not sure whether that makes commercial sense.

P1 could develop a mirrorless 645 system, but needed an agile partner to develop quickly a new lens line-up. They could even develop a mirrorless system maintaining their modular backs. This would please their Arca/Alpa/Cambo customers. But lets face it, there are enough alternatives now to do movements with GFX and even X1D, and the Rodenstock lenses are the only dinosaurier still surviving, for how much time ...
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 07, 2018, 09:52:05 am
Hassy is now a major camera brand because the new DJI drone cameras are branded Hassy; this gives DJI an incentive to support the brand at the very top, past commercial realities. As long as DJI keeps its own monopolistic position in the drone market.

I think Phase would have liked to do high-end prosumer mirrorless but Fuji and Hassy have first mover advantage there. They may be locked in their niche.

Edmund


If Hasselblad dumps their HD line, that would be great for P1, so they would be monopolist in their high margin niche.

Hasselblad could introduce an XD line for the full 645 sensor, but needed to develop a second lens line. I am not sure whether that makes commercial sense.

P1 could develop a mirrorless 645 system, but needed an agile partner to develop quickly a new lens line-up. They could even develop a mirrorless system maintaining their modular backs. This would please their Arca/Alpa/Cambo customers. But lets face it, there are enough alternatives now to do movements with GFX and even X1D, and the Rodenstock lenses are the only dinosaurier still surviving, for how much time ...
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2018, 10:03:48 am
Why would Hassy give away the highend to P1 when they have all the technological building blocks (X1D/X2D) to end the game by releasing a 645 mirrorless camera with a very modest investment?

The main problem of MF are focusing and mirror vibrations, mirrorless solves that. Yes, battery life may be poor...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 07, 2018, 11:04:38 am
Hi,

Being a Vulcan I would suggest it would be logical to switch to Hasselblad for new MFD sensors. If you are happy with your Credo 60, why not just hang on to it?

Depending on your usage, the future may belong to mirrorless, think Hassy X1D org GFX.

Skipping Team Phase One means ditching C1. If you want to use C1, you can stay with TPO or switch to non MFD like D850 et al.

Some Hasselblad shooters switch to LR with no real sadness at all...

Best regards
Erik

I know what I'm going to do, but am interested in what others plans are. In the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.  If you're an H user do you:

1-Sell the whole system now, it's never going to be worth more and then buy into a Phase XF system with something like a Credo 50 preowned, IQ150 etc. (which wouldn't be cheap, even with good prices for my current gear)
2-Sell the whole system and go back to 35mm and my D850
3-Wait a few years, there will be a IQ100 available used that will be the best last back for this system.
4-Wait a few years and keep the Credo, but buy a IQ50mp back for high ISO use when the used prices drop.

I'm a portrait photographer (www.douglaslevy.com) and use the system for most of my lit work (probably 70% of what I do). With a CMOS back that probably jumps to 90%. Curious what others' plans are.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: siddhaarta on September 07, 2018, 12:26:41 pm

Some Hasselblad shooters switch to LR with no real sadness at all...

Best regards
Erik

I have been using Nikon, Canon, Fuji, Olympus, Sony, Leica and Hasselblad with LR. And compared to the color and noise output that gave me the respective native software, only Leica and Hasselblad files have been satisfactory with LR (o.k.,Leica does not even have native software). Nevertheless, if C1 would open up to MFD competitors, I would certainly buy a C1 license and use that exclusively, not least because I don't like Adobes subscription model.

Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 07, 2018, 02:37:59 pm
Erik,

I've used both LR and C1 for years, LR is painful (I only really use it for weddings), and don't consider it a viable solution for tethering (99% of all my non-wedding work). And I am going to hang on to the Credo 60, it's more about long term planning. Previously I knew there was a path forward to new CMOS backs. I do have a full Nikon setup (D4/5/850), but I enjoy keeping both systems.

-D
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: landscapephoto on September 07, 2018, 04:35:01 pm
On the other hand my feeling is Hassy will soon be tempted to cut and run, dumping the H and moving entirely to the XD. Otherwise they would have to start bringing out new lenses suitable for a post 150MP world, just like Phase have been moving to BR lenses and that doesn't seem to be what's happening. Also the H lenses are old tech and made by Fuji, who are now a direct competitor in this very small medium format niche so there will be increasing stress in negotiating for such a tuneup.

The people using the multishot version of the H camera which gives 200 millions pixels or more never complain about H lenses, so we may assume that they are not to shabby.

This being said, we all know that Hasselblad is selling more X1D cameras than they expected, so one would expect them to concentrate on developing new lenses for that mount.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 07, 2018, 05:09:08 pm
Hi.

The main problem witch C1 is that Phase One does not allow it for competing MFD platforms. So, if a Capture One user switches to say Leica S, Fuji GFX or  Hasselblad, he/she will no longer be able to use Capture One.

So, some of the users of C1 were forced to switch to other platforms and found that LR was OK, after all. We have both Hasselblad, Nikon and Leica S users on this forum making that experience.

But, if you are a happy Credo user you can use that system and you can replace it with a Phase One system. Thre 3-series models may be around for a while and there will always be pre owned backs.

It may come to that Phase One doesn't care about low end MFD competition and allows C1 for say 50 MP backs from Hassy and others.

It is not me causing you problems, the one causing you problems is Phase One...

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

I've used both LR and C1 for years, LR is painful (I only really use it for weddings), and don't consider it a viable solution for tethering (99% of all my non-wedding work). And I am going to hang on to the Credo 60, it's more about long term planning. Previously I knew there was a path forward to new CMOS backs. I do have a full Nikon setup (D4/5/850), but I enjoy keeping both systems.

-D
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 07, 2018, 05:11:49 pm
Hahah, I know it wasn't you! But the lack of a path forward was frustrating. I see a CPO'd IQ50mp or 100 in my future. The addition of "leaf color" to the p1 backs was a huge jump. When I went from the 40-60 credo, I toyed with the idea of the 50, but the color just wasn't the same, which now it is.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BAB on September 07, 2018, 07:47:00 pm
Its an interesting thought process that is as old as me (older) when you want to stay on the cutting edge its expensive but that's what you do when your making money with your tools. If you need a new high end high DR system Phase is a lease to own priced system while the others are priced purchase to own. (Phase dealers know this) We all know the rumors of what is to come in the way of sensors but not how each company might implement them into either existing tooling or brand new cameras. We also don't know what changes to firmware will come with the new offerings and if firmware added features will even benefit us. What I have seen is the newer chips may yield an easier way to upgrade future cameras with newer technology. Lenses are becoming an issue (T-G) I haven't yet switched my H glass for the new Orange glass)

But not to digress your question has not yet an answer but it might in less that a month. For me the real answers will come when I can get my hands the camera with the specs that might replace the H6D. My thought is for now at this intersection of MF going one way and Mirror-Less going another way we can only hope that a loyalty program might be issued by some of the brands to ease the bleeding a bit.
And I would also like to say the Hasselblad Company in retrospect could have done much much more to insure the H6D and X1D were better then the current state. Making high end cameras is a dangerous game out in the global world for the moment but I guess not inGothenburg!



Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: alatreille on September 07, 2018, 10:58:27 pm
That's part of my problem. I won't move to an H back because of Phocus, C1 is too important a part of my workflow.
A key reason they are nwver going to support fuji or pentax or other MF options...

It stopped me investing in a gfx.

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Joe Towner on September 07, 2018, 11:12:12 pm
It will be fun to see where the H system lands.  As a brand, Hasselblad needs to be seen as offering a top end product.  I recall them rushing the -50c announcement to be 'first', so for the 150mp to be out this long without an announcement strikes me as odd.  They'll make a 150mp, and what ever else Sony puts out.  I think they'll also go with the 54x40 only H series going forward.  My biggest complaint on the H lineup is the dependance on Fuji for glass. 

I wouldn't be surprised at continued neglect by Fuji given the rumor that the GFX exists purely as a FU to Hasselblad going with a different OEM for lenses on the X1D.  I think the Arri Prime 65 lenses are the Fuji H lenses, so there are reasons to update or add to the line up.  The HCD 35-90 would need a bit of help as it's not quite full coverage on the -100c back.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BobShaw on September 08, 2018, 12:51:08 am
the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.
 Curious what others' plans are.
Easy. Put the H1, H5X and Credo 60 on eBay either separately or packaged and buy the X1D and use the same lenses with the XH adaptor and tripod clamp.

Eventually get an XCD lens of your favourite size.

I had the H3D and H4D and just about paid for the X1D cash.
If you are desperate to use Capture One then just export TIF out Phocus.

Who really needs 150MP? Certainly not a portrait photographer.

Phase is investing in dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: ErikKaffehr on September 08, 2018, 03:56:25 am
Hi,

It is pretty clear that Hasselblad will offer 150 MP on 54x41 mm, if there is demand.

My impression is that the H-lenses are quite OK. I would think Hasselblad is capable of designing new lenses, whoever is making them. But, it is a serious effort and if the the existing lens line is OK, why fix it at great expense? Will they loose customers to Phase One? Are Phase One lenses better?

The X-line is a bit different, it is based around a smaller sensor and it needs lenses built around that size.

I would figure that Hasselblad thinks the future is with the X-system, so H-system is sort of in a maintenance mode.

Best regards
Erik


It will be fun to see where the H system lands.  As a brand, Hasselblad needs to be seen as offering a top end product.  I recall them rushing the -50c announcement to be 'first', so for the 150mp to be out this long without an announcement strikes me as odd.  They'll make a 150mp, and what ever else Sony puts out.  I think they'll also go with the 54x40 only H series going forward.  My biggest complaint on the H lineup is the dependance on Fuji for glass. 

I wouldn't be surprised at continued neglect by Fuji given the rumor that the GFX exists purely as a FU to Hasselblad going with a different OEM for lenses on the X1D.  I think the Arri Prime 65 lenses are the Fuji H lenses, so there are reasons to update or add to the line up.  The HCD 35-90 would need a bit of help as it's not quite full coverage on the -100c back.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 08, 2018, 05:49:34 am

Phase is investing in dinosaurs.

Phase is selling cloned dinosaurs to museums :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Rob C on September 08, 2018, 08:22:21 am
Phase is selling cloned dinosaurs to museums :)

Edmund


Seems to work, though, so if it ain't broke...

My old 500 Series fantasy lingers on. Would it have ever made sense to retain the body and to progress along digital lines by interchangeable backs? Fans of evf could have the option of slipping one into a shoe, perhaps not optimal solution, or just working tethered. I never used my 500s again off-tripod after the first roll when I discovered the difference between a hand-held Rollei TLR at a 125th sec. and my 500C at the same speed. Bigger cameras are usually more for considered (in the sense of careful composition) photography than are the smaller format ones, though even in my own work, many jobs on 135 also required careful framing and, as consequence, tripods.

Fidelity to the 500 format would have retained faith with an absolute style icon as well as have developed upon it in the new age. They went that way for a while, but I think they abandoned the ship too soon.

Rob
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 08, 2018, 08:27:16 am
BobShaw that won't work for a ton of reasons. Tethering, my hate of mirrorless (don't like how it feels like I'm watching a video of what I'm about to photograph) etc. I'm not so much looking for an immediate solution, just a road map.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 08, 2018, 10:06:11 am
Rob,

The 500C had a lot going for it, and in fact Sinar/Leaf /Rollei went broke trying to clone it while adding AF and an internal motor.

You can get a Hy6 used.

A lot of people liked the Contax, and some even thought the lenses were decent. Look what happened to that system.

You can get a Contax used.

Some people liked the Rollei. It too had good glass :)

You can get a Rollei used.

Some people liked the Sinar M;

It had Zeiss AF lenses, was modular and Swiss made.

You can get the Sinar M used.

 I don’t think you would like the XF that  much, but you can buy that one new, so go ahead and try it, and tell us :)

Good business sense always trumps product quality; and so buyers of Phase system buy from the very best business people. Phase dominate MF just as Microsoft dominates PC software - by a combination of adequate design, good-enough engineering, good software architecture, first-rate marketing, sophisticated pricing and sales, expensive but effective after-sales support  and superb business sense.

Edmund




Seems to work, though, so if it ain't broke...

My old 500 Series fantasy lingers on. Would it have ever made sense to retain the body and to progress along digital lines by interchangeable backs? Fans of evf could have the option of slipping one into a shoe, perhaps not optimal solution, or just working tethered. I never used my 500s again off-tripod after the first roll when I discovered the difference between a hand-held Rollei TLR at a 125th sec. and my 500C at the same speed. Bigger cameras are usually more for considered (in the sense of careful composition) photography than are the smaller format ones, though even in my own work, many jobs on 135 also required careful framing and, as consequence, tripods.

Fidelity to the 500 format would have retained faith with an absolute style icon as well as have developed upon it in the new age. They went that way for a while, but I think they abandoned the ship too soon.

Rob
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: bcooter on September 08, 2018, 12:26:07 pm
I know what I'm going to do, but am interested in what others plans are. In the wake of Phase's announcement of no new H backs. I currently own an H1, H5X, 50, 80 and 120 and Credo60.  If you're an H user do you:



Everyone likes new shiny stuff, same here but if what I have is working, or better put not stopping me from doing what I need to do, why  worry about it?

Not an H user but have and do use one orphaned system, a Contax 645.  Have 4 of them and two phase backs and have only had one camera go down because an assistant stuck a thumb through the shutter curtain.  I’ve never worried about those cameras going breaking and Phase/Leaf backs rarely go down, but you probably know that.

I briefly looked at your website and your work is fine especially the colour and composition . . . well done,  so why go through a new learning curve and expense with a brand new system, unless you really need it? Even if Phase stopped supporting your backs in C-1 (which I doubt) or stopped repairs on your present system, you can always find other solutions when needed, though I can tell you our millenial assistants believe a big professional camera is a 5d something or Nikon 850.   In fact the camera that get’s their attention is the Contax, because they’ve rarely seen one and it looks analog with an electronic interface and analog is big with that age group.

Though I think what you have is on the right track and if you see a large, high profile still shoot for editorial like the cover of Vanity Fare, you usually see the photographer with a H system mated to a phase/leaf back, usually from rental.

___________________________________

Looking at this thread, mirrorless is mentioned (it is on nearly every thread).

To be clear I’m not over or underwhelmed with evf mirrorless cameras and I own 9 from 4 makers (if you include the REDs) and use all of them 99% for motion footage.   For still imagery I use ovf cameras, because that’s what I learned on as ovfs are natural to me.  Now with that thought I have a theory that camera makers obviously want to sell more equipment today but are keeping a strong eye on the next generation of image makers.   

A month ago we had a family get together with my young nieces and nephew.  I had cameras with us for an upcoming shoot so I put a 17-55 2.8 on an old 70d for the kids to play with. 

They’re polite and careful kids, so I showed them how to set up and use the camera.  I put my eye on the ovf and they tried that usually with little luck.  So I set it to view and shoot  through the lcd and since they learned photography from smart phones it was natural to them and they ran around shooting like crazy.   Actually shot some interesting imagery, though in 20 minutes they didn’t want to shoot only a still photograph, they wanted to shoot a movie, so I set that up for them and have cards and cards full of footage.

So my point is the next generation of image makers are trained on smart phones and lcds, not optical viewfinder cameras and I believe  that is where the makers will go.  I think mirrorless is getting better but for stills I think it’s still in it’s infancy.  Soon, I’m sure all makers will have evfs that shoot really good quality footage, excellent focus and  better battery life and frame rates.   They will probably grow in size but most cameras get bigger in their later version, especially if they have a motion component to reduce heat and to allow for a much larger lcd, think medium I phone size.

But I’m not the average buyer and use to be an early adopter but have changed because if something works I keep it until the paint wears off.  I still buy new, am actually testing newer Motion cameras next to my REDs. 

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Sorry for the long post, but this is always to each his own.  I was in the LA Leica store and they we’re pushing the SL and the cmos M.    I said I dunno, I have an S2 I like and even though it’s kinda goofy I love my M8.   The sales rep said Roger Deakins just came in with his M8 and Mr. Deakins being a very, very busy Academy Award winning DP can afford anything he wants.  So some cameras just click for you (no pun intended) some don’t.

It’s all personal.


IMO

BC

Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BobShaw on September 08, 2018, 05:00:19 pm
BobShaw that won't work for a ton of reasons. Tethering, my hate of mirrorless (don't like how it feels like I'm watching a video of what I'm about to photograph) etc. I'm not so much looking for an immediate solution, just a road map.
I just did 1200 shots of leather bags tethered to a MBP an iPad simultaneously so sorry if I am not seeing your problem.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 09, 2018, 09:32:27 am
I mean, that's fine, that works for you. I've found LR tethering to be unreliable and C1, Capture Pilot etc. more integral to my workflow than any camera choice. Lots of smart comments @BC, thanks!
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 09, 2018, 09:49:34 am
I mean, that's fine, that works for you. I've found LR tethering to be unreliable and C1, Capture Pilot etc. more integral to my workflow than any camera choice. Lots of smart comments @BC, thanks!

I’m not exactly a Phase lover :) but it is apparent that P1 has bulletproof tethered probably because once upon a time all their backs were tethered-only. They live or die in that niche, and will probably always do it better than anyone else.

However, for someone working in a studio, I cannot imagine what still photography customers might require over the next 3-5 years that an existing 100MP back mounted on a Hassy cannot do? Is there really any pressure to buy?

And conversely, is there anything an XF can do in the field untethered  that a 100MP XD2 cannot do much better?

Edmund

Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 09, 2018, 09:50:52 am
Oh I totally agree. A future upgrade to a used IQ100 solves a lot of eventual "problems" re:path forward.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: eronald on September 09, 2018, 09:53:42 am
Oh I totally agree. A future upgrade to a used IQ100 solves a lot of eventual "problems" re:path forward.

Now all you need is to ask Doug nicely to earmark one for you - and have him send me your own castaway as a sales commission :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BobShaw on September 09, 2018, 05:49:46 pm
I mean, that's fine, that works for you. I've found LR tethering to be unreliable and C1, Capture Pilot etc. more integral to my workflow than any camera choice. Lots of smart comments @BC, thanks!
Well I don't tether to Lightroom. I don't even use that programme at all. You tether to the programme made for the camera, which is Phocus and Phocus Mobile and then export to whatever.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: imagetone on September 16, 2018, 05:26:12 pm
I just did 1200 shots of leather bags tethered to a MBP an iPad simultaneously so sorry if I am not seeing your problem.

Bob
Interesting. Have you ever shot sequences (eg focus stacks) that allow you to comment on the fastest capture rate you can get with your tethered X1D setup (and feasibility of shooting focus stacks with it). Are you focusing and triggering the shutter from Phocus?
Tony
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: BobShaw on September 17, 2018, 02:54:50 am
Bob
Interesting. Have you ever shot sequences (eg focus stacks) that allow you to comment on the fastest capture rate you can get with your tethered X1D setup (and feasibility of shooting focus stacks with it). Are you focusing and triggering the shutter from Phocus?
Tony
I don't focus stack. My product work is at f11 or higher, usually f18-20 so DOF is no problem.
Capture rate of raw on my MBP is limited to the USB2 capability of it so that is not fast. I need to get a USB3 MBP (:-)
The image tethered to the iPad on Phocus Mobile comes up virtually instantly because it is jpg though.
I only manual focus as I am using HC lenses but I can focus using the + and - buttons in Phocus.
Usually however I just look through the EVF at the focus peaking.
Yes triggering from Phocus. You can use either the MBP or the iPad.
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: douglevy on September 17, 2018, 09:22:41 am
Bob it sounds like your system works for you. I don't use Phocus, or mirrorless, and don't have much interest in either at this time.

-Doug
Title: Re: Thinking Out Loud Here for H system users
Post by: Msstudio on September 19, 2018, 04:24:00 pm
I actually see the current developments more as an argument for Hasselblad. With DJI they have a solid partner/investor whose product line is on an upswing to say the least.
 The X1D/mirrorless line is great addition and gives them (along with developing cameras for the drones) another product pipeline thats easily compatible with H lenses.
For some these two/three product are separate, but personally I use them (H and X) both for various reasons and I'm always happy to have the X1D as a backup body, instead of another H6. Much lighter, smaller and obviously cheaper alternative. And it's a great little camera to bring on travel jobs for some outstanding imagery.
I keep maintaining and upgrading my 35mm DSLR/EVF cameras and shoot whatever the job demands.
My only wish right now, would be to have the Nikon Z and DSLR line up and produce good video, but with these internal codecs, I'm sticking with Canon and Sony, bummer...