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Author Topic: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?  (Read 3239 times)

Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2018, 03:37:11 pm »

... Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?

I am not sure that the presentation aspect ratio for moving pictures is not simply a fashion statement. I think that for most subjects, 4:3 is the easiest to frame in camera and the wider aspect ratios are more difficult. As far as original production goes, total resolution is the key and gives the most flexibility in post. I suspect that presentation aspect ratios will remain varied. Thanks to the smart phone, even portrait mode is now quite acceptable to many viewers.
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Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2018, 04:36:29 pm »

Yeah, 4:3 is close to the Academy ratio (1.37:1) used to make most movies for decades. Put a 100mp 4:3 sensor in your camera and you'll get 8K+ output with plenty of spare pixels for cropping to your presentation aspect ratio of choice.  :D  No need to be a slave to 16:9.

-Dave-
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BJL

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Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market? 8K video in mind?
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2018, 04:55:31 pm »

Panasonic does already make professional video and "cinema" cameras, some with its own Super 35mm (about 25x19mm) "MOS" sensors; it also uses its MOS sensors in some MFT models. So Panasonic could make its own sensors for a new, larger format, video-oriented system, maybe to be ready for 8K. In fact:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor
That sensor is 8K, 36MP, which means 16:9 shape, and if Panasonic continues its "moving picture" orientation, a change to that 16:9 seems more likely than going to 4:3. Maybe sharing Leica's L mount, with some Panasonic-Leica joint venture lenses?
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DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2018, 06:54:28 pm »

Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?
sensor real size -> cost...  4:3 was selected by Olympus & Panasonic for stills back in 43 dSLR times, not for video... why do you think companies (Arri, Red, etc) that are using big custom made sensors for movies are almost never using 4:3 sensors (Alexa Mini is a notable exception) ? think a little ...
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DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2018, 07:14:04 pm »

They managed it the first time because there was no competition

the first time was for 43 dSLRs and dSLR market was already totally full of other vendors (C&N) by that time (first 43 dSLR from Olympus was in 2003 if you forget, and first 43 camera from Panasonic and their first 43 lens competing against Olympus too in addition to market full of C&N&Pentax&Sony now was in 2006 - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcl1)

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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2018, 11:42:06 am »

New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David

DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2018, 04:28:03 pm »

New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David

@ the link (FT4 rating) you posted nothing is about sensor

Quote
1) The new Panasonic FF will have a newly Panasonic designed mount. It will not use the Leica SL mount.
2) The new camera will be announced as a prototype on September 25 but final version will start shipping out in March 2019

as for the sensor it is FT3 rating @ https://www.43rumors.com/ft3-word-on-the-street-is-that-the-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-not-use-a-sony-sensor/

Quote
This rumor has yet to be confirmed by my usual trusted sources. But this is what I am hearing for now: The new Panasonic Full Frame camera will NOT use a Sony sensor
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2018, 05:18:45 pm »

BJL

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2018, 09:51:03 pm »

@ the link (FT4 rating) you posted nothing is about sensor

as for the sensor it is FT3 rating @ https://www.43rumors.com/ft3-word-on-the-street-is-that-the-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-not-use-a-sony-sensor/

I am puzzled that 43rumors seems finds that surprising: Panasonic is a sensor maker too, including for some MFT cameras, some professional video cameras, and as I mentioned above:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor
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Dan Wells

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #29 on: September 03, 2018, 10:40:01 pm »

I agree with the "if anything, they'll move to 16:9" group. How wide a 16:9 sensor would fit in a FE mount? Since it's not as tall as a 24x36 mm sensor, it could be at least a bit wider (38 mm?). If it's a new mount, the sensor could be over 40 mm wide without requiring a very large mount or extra-large image circles...

Dan
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2018, 08:19:22 am »

I am puzzled that 43rumors seems finds that surprising: Panasonic is a sensor maker too, including for some MFT cameras, some professional video cameras, and as I mentioned above:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor

I suppose they still believe Panasonic is out of sensor business... a business they came back in 2016 after halting it in 2011 due to loses of the division: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Panasonic-resuming-image-sensor-R-D-with-eye-on-8K

If they are mass-producing that organic sensor... that can make sensor market more interesting :)

D Fuller

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2018, 02:47:31 pm »

sensor real size -> cost...  4:3 was selected by Olympus & Panasonic for stills back in 43 dSLR times, not for video... why do you think companies (Arri, Red, etc) that are using big custom made sensors for movies are almost never using 4:3 sensors (Alexa Mini is a notable exception) ? think a little ...

On the other hand, in filmmaking, anamorphic has made a strong comeback of late, and 4:3 is perfect for that. (That’s why some flavors of Alexa sport one.) So if this is a strongly video-focused effort...
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Rado

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2018, 02:53:00 pm »

I wonder if they do something together with Olympus again? I'd love to see a modern take on FF lenses from Oly...
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2018, 03:04:52 pm »

New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David

Good luck with a new mount...

They'll have to target a niche and focus on that. No way they can beat Canon/Sony/Nikon in the general market and lure people away to a new mount, without a preexisting reservoir of Panasonic full-frame lenses out there - not when the other three can offer everything from UWAs to superteles, as well as niche offerings including tilt-shifts, apodisation lenses and macros capable of greater than 1:1 magnification.

If Sony didn't get into the full-frame mirrorless game five years ahead of the others, they wouldn't have broken into the general market either. And if Canon didn't have such a weakness in high-resolution sensors at the time, Sony would have had a much tougher time initially. None of those factors are in play for Panasonic now.
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Mjollnir

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2018, 06:24:18 pm »

I wonder if they do something together with Olympus again? I'd love to see a modern take on FF lenses from Oly...

As would I.  After 8 years of dedicated M43 stills photography with a mix of Panny and Olympus, making the jump to Nikon FX, I still miss the insane quality of those damned lenses.

That Oly 75mm 1.8?  Nothing else like it.
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 10:32:53 am »

Latests rumors info: https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-new-panasonic-ff-camera-aims-for-the-big-guys-will-compete-against-the-sony-a9-nikon-d850-and-top-canon-cameras/

Quote
To sum up this what we know so far (FT5):

  • Panasonic will announce a new Full Frame Mirrorless system camera on September 25
  • Panasonic will only show a prototype with non finalized specs
  • The new camera will go on market by March 2019
  • Panasonic has designed this new sensor
  • The camera will have “way more” than 30 Megapixels
  • The camera has excellent video quality

These are the unconfirmed rumors (FT2….may be right or may be wrong):

  • The camera will take current MFT lenses via adapter
  • Costs around $3,000
  • Has no on sensor stabilization
  • 2 slot card
  • 4K with no crop in FF and 10 bit 4:2:2
  • weather sealed
  • Olympus is not joining the Panasonic FF system

Dan Wells

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 06:15:21 pm »

I strongly suspect a video-centric camera - more of an "affordable RED" than a shot right at the A7rIII and the Z7 (assuming very high resolution). Unless the lenses were real Leicas (not Leica-branded Panasonics), what would convince anyone to choose Panasonic over either Sony's mature system or Nikon's ergonomics and F-mount compatibility?

Now, what it if it were capable of 4Kp120 and 1080p480 video? What if it had a codec running close to a gigabit per second (the GH5 is 400 megabits)? It would have to use XQD cards, but they can handle those speeds... That would be differentiating from anything else on the market. It might not be the best still camera around (although still quite credible), but it would be a better video camera than anything remotely near its price - shades of the early GH line before Sony and now Fuji came close.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 07:41:35 pm »

I strongly suspect a video-centric camera - more of an "affordable RED" than a shot right at the A7rIII and the Z7 (assuming very high resolution). Unless the lenses were real Leicas (not Leica-branded Panasonics), what would convince anyone to choose Panasonic over either Sony's mature system or Nikon's ergonomics and F-mount compatibility?

Now, what it if it were capable of 4Kp120 and 1080p480 video? What if it had a codec running close to a gigabit per second (the GH5 is 400 megabits)? It would have to use XQD cards, but they can handle those speeds... That would be differentiating from anything else on the market. It might not be the best still camera around (although still quite credible), but it would be a better video camera than anything remotely near its price - shades of the early GH line before Sony and now Fuji came close.

The major trump card Panasonic will probably play is their very innovative global shutter sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2018, 04:21:58 am »

I will probably be wrong but... I think Panasonic has a very good opportunity, if they are bold enough. What I would dream to see:

  • Very good sensor not manufacturer by Sony... that will make things interesting in sensor market and bring even more speed of innovation.
  • Global shutter... this will make all video people love this camera...
  • Internal video RAW recording... that will be a killer... although probably requieres to mount some kind of disk unit.
  • 4:2:2 4k60p 10 bits internal recording, not that innovative, but really good feature

P.D.: Dan, 1 Gbits it is just around 120 Megabytes/second, something like this can achieve those speeds: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1322906-REG/sony_sosd64gbuii_64gb_uhs_ii_sd_card.html

Rado

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2018, 04:26:48 am »

Global shutter would also make strobists like me love the camera. Bye bye flash sync speed. I hope to see it one day in all cameras.
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