Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: davidgp on August 31, 2018, 12:30:12 pm

Title: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on August 31, 2018, 12:30:12 pm
With photokina around the corner looks like rumors are heating up - https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-will-announce-its-first-full-frame-system-camera-on-september-25/

I really have my doubts about it... but after all Fuji entered MF market last year... so why not? For video centric people that loves those GH cameras from Panasonic this must be quite interesting...

And if true... together with the Canon rumor... we maybe have like 5 mirrorless FF by the end of September: Sony, Leica, Nikon, Panasonic, and Canon (four if Panasonic uses Leica SL mount).


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Telecaster on August 31, 2018, 03:21:31 pm
If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on August 31, 2018, 03:28:34 pm
If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-

Yeah... I’m also wondering about the aspect ratio...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: John Camp on August 31, 2018, 04:34:38 pm
I'm not sure I believe this. I have a full Panasonic system and would welcome a full-frame version of it, especially with a 4/3 aspect ratio -- the cameras are really quite good. I was planning to buy the new Nikon Z7 but if more rumors like this come along, I may hold off until I see what is what. But I don't understand why they'd produce a FF camera for video...unless it's a dedicated video camera. The GH series camera at m4/3 are good enough for almost anything that you'd do, that doesn't require dedicated gear. 
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Telecaster on August 31, 2018, 04:44:14 pm
I'm also dubious about this. Could be Leica is coming out with an updated SL, with Panasonic involvement, and that info has become garbled up into this rumor. Or not.  :D  We shall see…

-Dave-
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on August 31, 2018, 09:39:28 pm
If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-

(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Osprey on August 31, 2018, 10:30:00 pm
Because 8k will happen soon and those 33 megapixels in Micro 4:3rds format, the wrong aspect ratio anyway, is a long ways off

I'm not sure I believe this. I have a full Panasonic system and would welcome a full-frame version of it, especially with a 4/3 aspect ratio -- the cameras are really quite good. I was planning to buy the new Nikon Z7 but if more rumors like this come along, I may hold off until I see what is what. But I don't understand why they'd produce a FF camera for video...unless it's a dedicated video camera. The GH series camera at m4/3 are good enough for almost anything that you'd do, that doesn't require dedicated gear.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: shadowblade on August 31, 2018, 10:51:25 pm
(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.

Sony would. They make half of all sensors anyway. And, for a full-frame camera, they could easily make an agreement that would advantage both parties.

Sony's open lens mount works both ways. Just as you can make a third-party lens that fits onto a Sony body, you can make a third-party body that takes Sony lenses.

Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them. At the same time, they have done a lot of work with video - specifically, lightweight and compact video bodies well-suited for mounting on drones, location shooting and 'disposable' applications, quite unlike Sony's high-end studio/cinema gear.

But Sony has a huge stable of E-mount lenses, all of which are optimised for mirrorless and video focusing. They would be more than delighted if Panasonic decided to concentrate on a niche and adopted E-mount - not only would they be selling sensors, but they would also have a whole new customer base for their lenses. Who cares if it's Panasonic rather than Sony who assemble the bodies if the sensors, lenses and likely EVFs are coming from Sony anyway? It's not like Panasonic is ever likely to be able to focus on more than niche areas and become a real competitor to either Canon or Sony.

16:9 would make more sense than 4:3, given Panasonic's strong video focus, but they may want to maintain easy interoperability with their crop bodies. Maybe 3:2 with several different crop modes...
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: John Camp on September 01, 2018, 12:49:08 am

Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them.<snip> It's not like Panasonic is ever likely to be able to focus on more than niche areas and become a real competitor to either Canon or Sony.

Actually, Panasonic can focus on anything it wishes. It a considerably larger company than Sony, with wide expertise in electronics.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 01, 2018, 02:07:44 am
According to Forbes Sony has a larger market cap and slightly higher revenue than Panasonic. Anyway I don’t see what size has to do with it once you get to this scale anyway. Desire would count for more. Sony seems to have the desire. Who knows what Panasonic want to do. Not sure there is even room for another high end camera manufacturer.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: shadowblade on September 01, 2018, 04:27:08 am
Actually, Panasonic can focus on anything it wishes. It a considerably larger company than Sony, with wide expertise in electronics.

Sony is larger. But, more to the point, a camera is an optical as well as an electronic system. Sony was an electronic company, but bought Minolta and gained an optics base for developing lenses. Panasonic has no such base - they would have to do it from scratch.

Panasonic could potentially make their own sensors. But they'd also need a lens lineup. Starting from scratch, they'd struggle to match Canon/Nikon/Sony. If they went with Leica lenses, they'd be priced out of the market. But E-mount is an open mount, with a wide range of mirrorless-ready lenses available, and Sony would likely be more than happy for them to use it if it means increased lens sales.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 01, 2018, 06:46:56 am
Panasonic could potentially make their own sensors. But they'd also need a lens lineup. Starting from scratch, they'd struggle to match Canon/Nikon/Sony. If they went with Leica lenses, they'd be priced out of the market. But E-mount is an open mount, with a wide range of mirrorless-ready lenses available, and Sony would likely be more than happy for them to use it if it means increased lens sales.

So... you think they can not upscale their M43 lens designs they have been doing for years now?




http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: chez on September 01, 2018, 09:44:14 am
According to Forbes Sony has a larger market cap and slightly higher revenue than Panasonic. Anyway I don’t see what size has to do with it once you get to this scale anyway. Desire would count for more. Sony seems to have the desire. Who knows what Panasonic want to do. Not sure there is even room for another high end camera manufacturer.

Yeh, really does not make much financial sense in a shrinking photography market.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on September 01, 2018, 10:16:25 am
Sony would

technically Sony Semi can do any sensors... but m43 4:3 sensors (16mp & 20mp) are purchased by both Olympus and Panasonic in noticeable quantities - their share of m43 market used to be and still is 2 digits... quantities of FF 4:3 sensor for Panasonic only is another story (unless Olympus plans to join), plus again - 4:3 aspect is totally waste of money for a video oriented camera where Panasonic has some decent audience.... while FF 3:2 sensors from Sony already are a cheap commodity... so chances for FF 4:3 shall be very slim

Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them.

capacity ? there are a lot of companies who will design for you - it is not about design, it is about manufacturing process and Panasonic somehow was capable to manufacture a variety m43 lenses - at least 29 in 10 years... that will be 3 a year on average - not bad at all, plus a chance is that they simply use existing mount - be it FE (that will be a good move) or rumored Leica's (that will be wrong)

Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on September 01, 2018, 10:17:54 am
Panasonic has no such base - they would have to do it from scratch.

they did it from scratch twice - 43 and m43 ... so nothing prevents them doing 3rd time, but makes sense to join an existing mount
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 01, 2018, 10:23:55 am
technically Sony Semi can do any sensors... but m43 4:3 sensors (16mp & 20mp) are purchased by both Olympus and Panasonic in noticeable quantities - their share of m43 market used to be and still is 2 digits... quantities of FF 4:3 sensor for Panasonic only is another story (unless Olympus plans to join), plus again - 4:3 aspect is totally waste of money for a video oriented camera where Panasonic has some decent audience.... while FF 3:2 sensors from Sony already are a cheap commodity... so chances for FF 4:3 shall be very slim

If Panasonic goes with a complete new sensor design... I.e. not buying a standard design from Sony, like the 45 MPx sensor Nikon is buying to them... it is indifferent the aspect ratio... the tooling is the same, you build the sensors in 300mm wafers... the you cut the chips from it... same line builds mobile phone camera sensors or medium format 150 MPx sensors that Phase One just released...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: shadowblade on September 01, 2018, 10:37:21 am
So... you think they can not upscale their M43 lens designs they have been doing for years now?

they did it from scratch twice - 43 and m43 ... so nothing prevents them doing 3rd time, but makes sense to join an existing mount

They managed it the first time because there was no competition - if you wanted mirrorless, it was Panasonic or nothing - and because Olympus, who were second on the scene, decided to join them and use the same mount, producing a much larger M43 user base. If Olympus had decided to produce its own mount, M43 would not have been any near as successful, given how many more bodies Olympus sells compared to Panasonic.

If they were the same thing today, they'd be up against Canon, Nikon and Sony, all of which would run rings around Panasonic in the lens game - Sony with a five-year head start and open mount, Canon due to its size and background in optics, and Nikon due to its singular focus on optics.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Telecaster on September 01, 2018, 03:16:20 pm
(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.

Y'all need to give smilies more respect.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on September 01, 2018, 03:21:52 pm
More FF GH5 conjecture on EOS-HD (https://www.eoshd.com/2018/09/panasonic-full-frame-mirrorless-camera/)
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: John Camp on September 01, 2018, 03:24:55 pm
Sony may now be larger than Panasonic -- I was using the latest Financial Times list that I could find, which ranks Panasonic as 364 in the world, and Sony as 376. There's something odd about these lists, as Fortune lists Sony as 97 and Panasonic at 114...I suspect in those lists, they disregard certain kinds of services attached to each company. FT simply takes everything into account an comes up with a number. In any case, the two companies are quite close to the same size and have roughly the same capabilities, though Panasonic has lately trended toward more hard manufacturing. I don't know whether that's a plus or minus in terms of making cameras. Sony sensors are excellent, of course, but their cameras are somewhat ham-handed, even compared to newcomers like Panasonic.

I don't understand why (I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand) why 4/3 aspect ratio would be a handicap in video cameras, given the excessive numbers of pixels in FF cameras, when compared to even 8K needs. Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on September 01, 2018, 03:37:11 pm
... Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?

I am not sure that the presentation aspect ratio for moving pictures is not simply a fashion statement. I think that for most subjects, 4:3 is the easiest to frame in camera and the wider aspect ratios are more difficult. As far as original production goes, total resolution is the key and gives the most flexibility in post. I suspect that presentation aspect ratios will remain varied. Thanks to the smart phone, even portrait mode is now quite acceptable to many viewers.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Telecaster on September 01, 2018, 04:36:29 pm
Yeah, 4:3 is close to the Academy ratio (1.37:1) used to make most movies for decades. Put a 100mp 4:3 sensor in your camera and you'll get 8K+ output with plenty of spare pixels for cropping to your presentation aspect ratio of choice.  :D  No need to be a slave to 16:9.

-Dave-
Title: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market? 8K video in mind?
Post by: BJL on September 01, 2018, 04:55:31 pm
Panasonic does already make professional video and "cinema" cameras, some with its own Super 35mm (about 25x19mm) "MOS" sensors; it also uses its MOS sensors in some MFT models. So Panasonic could make its own sensors for a new, larger format, video-oriented system, maybe to be ready for 8K. In fact:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor (https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html)
That sensor is 8K, 36MP, which means 16:9 shape, and if Panasonic continues its "moving picture" orientation, a change to that 16:9 seems more likely than going to 4:3. Maybe sharing Leica's L mount, with some Panasonic-Leica joint venture lenses?
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on September 01, 2018, 06:54:28 pm
Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?
sensor real size -> cost...  4:3 was selected by Olympus & Panasonic for stills back in 43 dSLR times, not for video... why do you think companies (Arri, Red, etc) that are using big custom made sensors for movies are almost never using 4:3 sensors (Alexa Mini is a notable exception) ? think a little ...
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on September 01, 2018, 07:14:04 pm
They managed it the first time because there was no competition

the first time was for 43 dSLRs and dSLR market was already totally full of other vendors (C&N) by that time (first 43 dSLR from Olympus was in 2003 if you forget, and first 43 camera from Panasonic and their first 43 lens competing against Olympus too in addition to market full of C&N&Pentax&Sony now was in 2006 - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicdmcl1)

Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 03, 2018, 11:42:06 am
New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: DP on September 03, 2018, 04:28:03 pm
New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David

@ the link (FT4 rating) you posted nothing is about sensor

Quote
1) The new Panasonic FF will have a newly Panasonic designed mount. It will not use the Leica SL mount.
2) The new camera will be announced as a prototype on September 25 but final version will start shipping out in March 2019

as for the sensor it is FT3 rating @ https://www.43rumors.com/ft3-word-on-the-street-is-that-the-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-not-use-a-sony-sensor/

Quote
This rumor has yet to be confirmed by my usual trusted sources. But this is what I am hearing for now: The new Panasonic Full Frame camera will NOT use a Sony sensor
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 03, 2018, 05:18:45 pm
@ the link (FT4 rating) you posted nothing is about sensor

as for the sensor it is FT3 rating @ https://www.43rumors.com/ft3-word-on-the-street-is-that-the-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-not-use-a-sony-sensor/

Yes... you are right


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: BJL on September 03, 2018, 09:51:03 pm
@ the link (FT4 rating) you posted nothing is about sensor

as for the sensor it is FT3 rating @ https://www.43rumors.com/ft3-word-on-the-street-is-that-the-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-not-use-a-sony-sensor/

I am puzzled that 43rumors seems finds that surprising: Panasonic is a sensor maker too, including for some MFT cameras, some professional video cameras, and as I mentioned above:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor (https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html)
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Dan Wells on September 03, 2018, 10:40:01 pm
I agree with the "if anything, they'll move to 16:9" group. How wide a 16:9 sensor would fit in a FE mount? Since it's not as tall as a 24x36 mm sensor, it could be at least a bit wider (38 mm?). If it's a new mount, the sensor could be over 40 mm wide without requiring a very large mount or extra-large image circles...

Dan
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 04, 2018, 08:19:22 am
I am puzzled that 43rumors seems finds that surprising: Panasonic is a sensor maker too, including for some MFT cameras, some professional video cameras, and as I mentioned above:
Panasonic Develops Industry's-First 8K High-Resolution, High-Performance Global Shutter Technology using Organic-Photoconductive-Film CMOS Image Sensor (https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html)

I suppose they still believe Panasonic is out of sensor business... a business they came back in 2016 after halting it in 2011 due to loses of the division: https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Panasonic-resuming-image-sensor-R-D-with-eye-on-8K

If they are mass-producing that organic sensor... that can make sensor market more interesting :)
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: D Fuller on September 05, 2018, 02:47:31 pm
sensor real size -> cost...  4:3 was selected by Olympus & Panasonic for stills back in 43 dSLR times, not for video... why do you think companies (Arri, Red, etc) that are using big custom made sensors for movies are almost never using 4:3 sensors (Alexa Mini is a notable exception) ? think a little ...

On the other hand, in filmmaking, anamorphic has made a strong comeback of late, and 4:3 is perfect for that. (That’s why some flavors of Alexa sport one.) So if this is a strongly video-focused effort...
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Rado on September 05, 2018, 02:53:00 pm
I wonder if they do something together with Olympus again? I'd love to see a modern take on FF lenses from Oly...
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: shadowblade on September 05, 2018, 03:04:52 pm
New rumors point to https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-new-panasonic-full-frame-camera-will-have-a-new-mount-not-leica-sl-mount-and-ship-in-march-2019/ :

- New FF mount, not reusing Leica SL mount.
- New FF sensor designed by Panasonic.
- Launch date March 2019.

Regards,

David

Good luck with a new mount...

They'll have to target a niche and focus on that. No way they can beat Canon/Sony/Nikon in the general market and lure people away to a new mount, without a preexisting reservoir of Panasonic full-frame lenses out there - not when the other three can offer everything from UWAs to superteles, as well as niche offerings including tilt-shifts, apodisation lenses and macros capable of greater than 1:1 magnification.

If Sony didn't get into the full-frame mirrorless game five years ahead of the others, they wouldn't have broken into the general market either. And if Canon didn't have such a weakness in high-resolution sensors at the time, Sony would have had a much tougher time initially. None of those factors are in play for Panasonic now.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Mjollnir on September 06, 2018, 06:24:18 pm
I wonder if they do something together with Olympus again? I'd love to see a modern take on FF lenses from Oly...

As would I.  After 8 years of dedicated M43 stills photography with a mix of Panny and Olympus, making the jump to Nikon FX, I still miss the insane quality of those damned lenses.

That Oly 75mm 1.8?  Nothing else like it.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 13, 2018, 10:32:53 am
Latests rumors info: https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-the-new-panasonic-ff-camera-aims-for-the-big-guys-will-compete-against-the-sony-a9-nikon-d850-and-top-canon-cameras/

Quote
To sum up this what we know so far (FT5):

  • Panasonic will announce a new Full Frame Mirrorless system camera on September 25
  • Panasonic will only show a prototype with non finalized specs
  • The new camera will go on market by March 2019
  • Panasonic has designed this new sensor
  • The camera will have “way more” than 30 Megapixels
  • The camera has excellent video quality

These are the unconfirmed rumors (FT2….may be right or may be wrong):

  • The camera will take current MFT lenses via adapter
  • Costs around $3,000
  • Has no on sensor stabilization
  • 2 slot card
  • 4K with no crop in FF and 10 bit 4:2:2
  • weather sealed
  • Olympus is not joining the Panasonic FF system

Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Dan Wells on September 13, 2018, 06:15:21 pm
I strongly suspect a video-centric camera - more of an "affordable RED" than a shot right at the A7rIII and the Z7 (assuming very high resolution). Unless the lenses were real Leicas (not Leica-branded Panasonics), what would convince anyone to choose Panasonic over either Sony's mature system or Nikon's ergonomics and F-mount compatibility?

Now, what it if it were capable of 4Kp120 and 1080p480 video? What if it had a codec running close to a gigabit per second (the GH5 is 400 megabits)? It would have to use XQD cards, but they can handle those speeds... That would be differentiating from anything else on the market. It might not be the best still camera around (although still quite credible), but it would be a better video camera than anything remotely near its price - shades of the early GH line before Sony and now Fuji came close.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 13, 2018, 07:41:35 pm
I strongly suspect a video-centric camera - more of an "affordable RED" than a shot right at the A7rIII and the Z7 (assuming very high resolution). Unless the lenses were real Leicas (not Leica-branded Panasonics), what would convince anyone to choose Panasonic over either Sony's mature system or Nikon's ergonomics and F-mount compatibility?

Now, what it if it were capable of 4Kp120 and 1080p480 video? What if it had a codec running close to a gigabit per second (the GH5 is 400 megabits)? It would have to use XQD cards, but they can handle those speeds... That would be differentiating from anything else on the market. It might not be the best still camera around (although still quite credible), but it would be a better video camera than anything remotely near its price - shades of the early GH line before Sony and now Fuji came close.

The major trump card Panasonic will probably play is their very innovative global shutter sensor.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 14, 2018, 04:21:58 am
I will probably be wrong but... I think Panasonic has a very good opportunity, if they are bold enough. What I would dream to see:


P.D.: Dan, 1 Gbits it is just around 120 Megabytes/second, something like this can achieve those speeds: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1322906-REG/sony_sosd64gbuii_64gb_uhs_ii_sd_card.html
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Rado on September 14, 2018, 04:26:48 am
Global shutter would also make strobists like me love the camera. Bye bye flash sync speed. I hope to see it one day in all cameras.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: shadowblade on September 14, 2018, 06:06:07 am
Global shutter would also make strobists like me love the camera. Bye bye flash sync speed. I hope to see it one day in all cameras.

I'd expect it in the A9ii. They have the technology, it would be ideal for an action camera designed to mainly use electronic shitter, and, given that 25fps isn't a huge step up from 20fps and the A9ii will be due around the time of the Tokyo Olympics, it would improve its output for 8k video. Even if the early-generation technology hurts base ISO DR a bit, that isn't such a big issue for an action camera anyway; later-generation technology that doesn't sacrifice DR will probably find its way into high-resolution bodies for strobe work, and eventually all sensors, to do away with mechanical shutters entirely.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Rado on September 14, 2018, 06:42:43 am
I don't how Panasonic plans to price its new FF model but I suspect it will be several years before the global shutter technology trickles down to something I can afford.
Title: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market? With a good global shutter?
Post by: BJL on September 14, 2018, 04:15:37 pm
I'd expect it in the A9ii. They have the technology, it would be ideal for an action camera designed to mainly use electronic shitter, and, given that 25fps isn't a huge step up from 20fps and the A9ii will be due around the time of the Tokyo Olympics, it would improve its output for 8k video. Even if the early-generation technology hurts base ISO DR a bit, that isn't such a big issue for an action camera anyway; later-generation technology that doesn't sacrifice DR will probably find its way into high-resolution bodies for strobe work, and eventually all sensors, to do away with mechanical shutters entirely.
Could be. One thing to note though is that Panasonic has already announced a new global shutter technology that does not hurt DR at base ISO speed because it does not half the full well capacity as previous approaches do. AFAIK, Sony does not yet have this capability (but is surely working on it). Panasonic's approach has the promise to make the mechanical shutter obsolescent, including ending the need for leaf shutters to get high speed flash sync.
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 14, 2018, 07:11:32 pm
Yes, Panasonic appears to have taken a rather significant lead over pretty much everybody else.

Sony appears to be going for a brute force approach with massive read out parallelization but their latest announcement was hinting at the fact that they were pretty far from resolutions/energy consumption compatible with SLR usage.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: D Fuller on September 14, 2018, 08:56:58 pm
If Panasonic has global shutter tech developed to the point where it is ready for release, I would expect to see it in video camera before a still camera. The cost increment would be smaller, so it wouldn’t be quite such a premium camera, and there are no other options in that arena, as mechanical shutters just aren’t available. And the experience in video would advance the tech for still cameras down the line.

Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: Dan Wells on September 15, 2018, 01:53:29 am
As far as I know, the highest standard for minimum write speed on a SD card is V90 (90 megabytes per second). To achieve 1 gigabit per second would require something on the order of V150 (120 megabytes per second, as Davidgp says, plus a bit of a buffer). Most of the speed claims beyond V90 are read speed only, and the cards that claim higher write speeds (the Sony David linked to, plus top cards from several other manufacturers) don't guarantee it as a minimum - several cards claiming hundreds of megabytes per second don't carry any certifications beyond U3 - they only guarantee 30 megabytes per second sustained, although they have a much higher burst capability. Again, as far as I know, the only standard media that is capable of that kind of write speed is XQD. CFExpress, a forthcoming descendent of XQD, will be even faster, easily capable of handling even 4K RAW video, although capacity will be a problem...
Title: Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
Post by: davidgp on September 15, 2018, 03:11:53 am
As far as I know, the highest standard for minimum write speed on a SD card is V90 (90 megabytes per second). To achieve 1 gigabit per second would require something on the order of V150 (120 megabytes per second, as Davidgp says, plus a bit of a buffer). Most of the speed claims beyond V90 are read speed only, and the cards that claim higher write speeds (the Sony David linked to, plus top cards from several other manufacturers) don't guarantee it as a minimum - several cards claiming hundreds of megabytes per second don't carry any certifications beyond U3 - they only guarantee 30 megabytes per second sustained, although they have a much higher burst capability. Again, as far as I know, the only standard media that is capable of that kind of write speed is XQD. CFExpress, a forthcoming descendent of XQD, will be even faster, easily capable of handling even 4K RAW video, although capacity will be a problem...

Hi, they can not garante bigger speeds because SD standard does not have bigger speeds... they need to say that it is the minimum because many SD cards readers won’t go beyond that. But if the camera supports it, they can reach it... if not will be imposible to clear the buffer of the A9 as quick as it does with one of these...


http://dgpfotografia.com