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Author Topic: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?  (Read 3516 times)

davidgp

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Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« on: August 31, 2018, 12:30:12 pm »

With photokina around the corner looks like rumors are heating up - https://www.43rumors.com/ft5-panasonic-will-announce-its-first-full-frame-system-camera-on-september-25/

I really have my doubts about it... but after all Fuji entered MF market last year... so why not? For video centric people that loves those GH cameras from Panasonic this must be quite interesting...

And if true... together with the Canon rumor... we maybe have like 5 mirrorless FF by the end of September: Sony, Leica, Nikon, Panasonic, and Canon (four if Panasonic uses Leica SL mount).


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Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2018, 03:21:31 pm »

If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2018, 03:28:34 pm »

If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-

Yeah... Iím also wondering about the aspect ratio...



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John Camp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2018, 04:34:38 pm »

I'm not sure I believe this. I have a full Panasonic system and would welcome a full-frame version of it, especially with a 4/3 aspect ratio -- the cameras are really quite good. I was planning to buy the new Nikon Z7 but if more rumors like this come along, I may hold off until I see what is what. But I don't understand why they'd produce a FF camera for video...unless it's a dedicated video camera. The GH series camera at m4/3 are good enough for almost anything that you'd do, that doesn't require dedicated gear. 
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Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2018, 04:44:14 pm »

I'm also dubious about this. Could be Leica is coming out with an updated SL, with Panasonic involvement, and that info has become garbled up into this rumor. Or not.  :D  We shall seeÖ

-Dave-
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DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2018, 09:39:28 pm »

If it happens my guess is it'll be a video-centric device. Wonder if Panasonic would stick with a 4:3 aspect ratio? 36x27mm.  :)  The Leica SL mount could easily support that.

-Dave-

(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.
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Osprey

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2018, 10:30:00 pm »

Because 8k will happen soon and those 33 megapixels in Micro 4:3rds format, the wrong aspect ratio anyway, is a long ways off

I'm not sure I believe this. I have a full Panasonic system and would welcome a full-frame version of it, especially with a 4/3 aspect ratio -- the cameras are really quite good. I was planning to buy the new Nikon Z7 but if more rumors like this come along, I may hold off until I see what is what. But I don't understand why they'd produce a FF camera for video...unless it's a dedicated video camera. The GH series camera at m4/3 are good enough for almost anything that you'd do, that doesn't require dedicated gear.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2018, 10:51:25 pm »

(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.

Sony would. They make half of all sensors anyway. And, for a full-frame camera, they could easily make an agreement that would advantage both parties.

Sony's open lens mount works both ways. Just as you can make a third-party lens that fits onto a Sony body, you can make a third-party body that takes Sony lenses.

Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them. At the same time, they have done a lot of work with video - specifically, lightweight and compact video bodies well-suited for mounting on drones, location shooting and 'disposable' applications, quite unlike Sony's high-end studio/cinema gear.

But Sony has a huge stable of E-mount lenses, all of which are optimised for mirrorless and video focusing. They would be more than delighted if Panasonic decided to concentrate on a niche and adopted E-mount - not only would they be selling sensors, but they would also have a whole new customer base for their lenses. Who cares if it's Panasonic rather than Sony who assemble the bodies if the sensors, lenses and likely EVFs are coming from Sony anyway? It's not like Panasonic is ever likely to be able to focus on more than niche areas and become a real competitor to either Canon or Sony.

16:9 would make more sense than 4:3, given Panasonic's strong video focus, but they may want to maintain easy interoperability with their crop bodies. Maybe 3:2 with several different crop modes...
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John Camp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2018, 12:49:08 am »


Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them.<snip> It's not like Panasonic is ever likely to be able to focus on more than niche areas and become a real competitor to either Canon or Sony.

Actually, Panasonic can focus on anything it wishes. It a considerably larger company than Sony, with wide expertise in electronics.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2018, 02:07:44 am »

According to Forbes Sony has a larger market cap and slightly higher revenue than Panasonic. Anyway I donít see what size has to do with it once you get to this scale anyway. Desire would count for more. Sony seems to have the desire. Who knows what Panasonic want to do. Not sure there is even room for another high end camera manufacturer.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2018, 04:27:08 am »

Actually, Panasonic can focus on anything it wishes. It a considerably larger company than Sony, with wide expertise in electronics.

Sony is larger. But, more to the point, a camera is an optical as well as an electronic system. Sony was an electronic company, but bought Minolta and gained an optics base for developing lenses. Panasonic has no such base - they would have to do it from scratch.

Panasonic could potentially make their own sensors. But they'd also need a lens lineup. Starting from scratch, they'd struggle to match Canon/Nikon/Sony. If they went with Leica lenses, they'd be priced out of the market. But E-mount is an open mount, with a wide range of mirrorless-ready lenses available, and Sony would likely be more than happy for them to use it if it means increased lens sales.
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2018, 06:46:56 am »

Panasonic could potentially make their own sensors. But they'd also need a lens lineup. Starting from scratch, they'd struggle to match Canon/Nikon/Sony. If they went with Leica lenses, they'd be priced out of the market. But E-mount is an open mount, with a wide range of mirrorless-ready lenses available, and Sony would likely be more than happy for them to use it if it means increased lens sales.

So... you think they can not upscale their M43 lens designs they have been doing for years now?




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chez

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2018, 09:44:14 am »

According to Forbes Sony has a larger market cap and slightly higher revenue than Panasonic. Anyway I donít see what size has to do with it once you get to this scale anyway. Desire would count for more. Sony seems to have the desire. Who knows what Panasonic want to do. Not sure there is even room for another high end camera manufacturer.

Yeh, really does not make much financial sense in a shrinking photography market.
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DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2018, 10:16:25 am »

Sony would

technically Sony Semi can do any sensors... but m43 4:3 sensors (16mp & 20mp) are purchased by both Olympus and Panasonic in noticeable quantities - their share of m43 market used to be and still is 2 digits... quantities of FF 4:3 sensor for Panasonic only is another story (unless Olympus plans to join), plus again - 4:3 aspect is totally waste of money for a video oriented camera where Panasonic has some decent audience.... while FF 3:2 sensors from Sony already are a cheap commodity... so chances for FF 4:3 shall be very slim

Panasonic has no full-frame lens format, no full-frame-capable lenses and a limited capacity to develop them.

capacity ? there are a lot of companies who will design for you - it is not about design, it is about manufacturing process and Panasonic somehow was capable to manufacture a variety m43 lenses - at least 29 in 10 years... that will be 3 a year on average - not bad at all, plus a chance is that they simply use existing mount - be it FE (that will be a good move) or rumored Leica's (that will be wrong)

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DP

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2018, 10:17:54 am »

Panasonic has no such base - they would have to do it from scratch.

they did it from scratch twice - 43 and m43 ... so nothing prevents them doing 3rd time, but makes sense to join an existing mount
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davidgp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2018, 10:23:55 am »

technically Sony Semi can do any sensors... but m43 4:3 sensors (16mp & 20mp) are purchased by both Olympus and Panasonic in noticeable quantities - their share of m43 market used to be and still is 2 digits... quantities of FF 4:3 sensor for Panasonic only is another story (unless Olympus plans to join), plus again - 4:3 aspect is totally waste of money for a video oriented camera where Panasonic has some decent audience.... while FF 3:2 sensors from Sony already are a cheap commodity... so chances for FF 4:3 shall be very slim

If Panasonic goes with a complete new sensor design... I.e. not buying a standard design from Sony, like the 45 MPx sensor Nikon is buying to them... it is indifferent the aspect ratio... the tooling is the same, you build the sensors in 300mm wafers... the you cut the chips from it... same line builds mobile phone camera sensors or medium format 150 MPx sensors that Phase One just released...


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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2018, 10:37:21 am »

So... you think they can not upscale their M43 lens designs they have been doing for years now?

they did it from scratch twice - 43 and m43 ... so nothing prevents them doing 3rd time, but makes sense to join an existing mount

They managed it the first time because there was no competition - if you wanted mirrorless, it was Panasonic or nothing - and because Olympus, who were second on the scene, decided to join them and use the same mount, producing a much larger M43 user base. If Olympus had decided to produce its own mount, M43 would not have been any near as successful, given how many more bodies Olympus sells compared to Panasonic.

If they were the same thing today, they'd be up against Canon, Nikon and Sony, all of which would run rings around Panasonic in the lens game - Sony with a five-year head start and open mount, Canon due to its size and background in optics, and Nikon due to its singular focus on optics.
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Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2018, 03:16:20 pm »

(A) who will make them FF 4:3 sensor in quantities less than m43 amount and (B) Panasonic being into video does not really need 4:3 aspect... so it will be a regular 3:2 sensor.

Y'all need to give smilies more respect.

-Dave-
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2018, 03:21:52 pm »

More FF GH5 conjecture on EOS-HD

John Camp

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Re: Panasonic to enter the FF mirrorless market?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2018, 03:24:55 pm »

Sony may now be larger than Panasonic -- I was using the latest Financial Times list that I could find, which ranks Panasonic as 364 in the world, and Sony as 376. There's something odd about these lists, as Fortune lists Sony as 97 and Panasonic at 114...I suspect in those lists, they disregard certain kinds of services attached to each company. FT simply takes everything into account an comes up with a number. In any case, the two companies are quite close to the same size and have roughly the same capabilities, though Panasonic has lately trended toward more hard manufacturing. I don't know whether that's a plus or minus in terms of making cameras. Sony sensors are excellent, of course, but their cameras are somewhat ham-handed, even compared to newcomers like Panasonic.

I don't understand why (I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't understand) why 4/3 aspect ratio would be a handicap in video cameras, given the excessive numbers of pixels in FF cameras, when compared to even 8K needs. Most movies are made in post, rather than in camera, and I would think that an aspect ratio larger than 16:9 would be an advantage in editing a final video, rather than a handicap. Wrong?
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