"Photography Composition: The Definitive Guide"

[Martin Kristiansen]

In spite of the arguments, what matters is what comes out of your camera. Arguments about composition are meaningless. Pictures aren't.

I have seen plenty of meaningless pictures. In fact I see very few pictures that aren’t meaningless. Perhaps if they followed the rules hey Rus

[Rob C]

I have seen plenty of meaningless pictures. In fact I see very few pictures that aren’t meaningless. Perhaps if they followed the rules hey Rus

Pretty much every picture that is not shot to order is meaningless. Most paintings are meaningless too, and the "old master" ones only had meaning when they referred to matters religious, to Leda and her randy Swan, to Venus/Aphrodite doing her Ursula Andress, or to depicted heads of state, of family or something official of that nature.

All the rest of art, broadly speaking, is about emotional reaction to beauty or horror, and that has no precise meaning at all. If you want to direct "meaning", then you usually have to add copy.

I think this partly explains why so little of my own, current photography is, in my own view, for hanging on the wall as decoration. It is not intended as decoration - it is intended as personal trip into something that caught my eye and that makes me want to see where it can go - much as with Winogrand's "...to see how it looks photographed." line. It doesn't even demand a print. The answer to the question of where and how is there, at the end of the processing journey, gazing back at me on the monitor.

It's a point I should perhaps have made more lucidly on my recent couple of lines on the state of film/digital imaging, and whether they are actually in the same family anymore. I concluded that they are not.

[Eric Myrvaagnes]

Rob (in another thread; emphasis mine):
...
Russ (in response to Alan Klein):
...
You guys should coordinate your attacks on us less talented

But if they coordinated their attacks, what would we all squabble about?   

[Rob C]

Rob (in another thread; emphasis mine):

Russ (in response to Alan Klein):

You guys should coordinate your attacks on us less talented

Attacks? Where?

Telling it like it is is not attack; it's that strange, rare thing called honesty.

If anything, it offers relief, releasing one from the wasted energy of trying to be someone other than oneself.

[RSL]

I have seen plenty of meaningless pictures. In fact I see very few pictures that aren’t meaningless. Perhaps if they followed the rules hey Rus

I'd certainly agree that the vast majority of pictures on LuLa are meaningless, but that has nothing to do with rules of composition and everything to do with an inability to see.

[Farmer]

"Knowledgable members answering should remember what things were like when they were starting out."

I remember when Michael created that forum because too many "knowledgable" (sic) members treated new comers quite badly and harshly.  Seems things haven't progressed.

Russ is right about the inability to see.

[Rob C]

"Knowledgable members answering should remember what things were like when they were starting out."

I remember when Michael created that forum because too many "knowledgable" (sic) members treated new comers quite badly and harshly.  Seems things haven't progressed.

Russ is right about the inability to see.

Phil, this is not a nursery; there's a section for newbies and I assume they get given all the help that there is. I also hope their minds are not stunted by rules and nonsense about how to be a photographic artist.

As with my entry into the digital world: I was in dire need of practical instructions, not lessons on visual morality and rightness. Such matters are personal, and nobody else has a right to tell another how to be himself.

[Farmer]

It doesn't need to be a nursery, but neither does it need to be a place where deigning to speak without an invitation results in a backlash.

That's the problem.  People can criticise something to their hearts content, but there's no need to be abusive about it or to categorise others as somehow being lesser being for having the audacity to take a different approach or to see benefit in things like primers.

"...nobody else has a right to tell another how to be himself."

And yet we have people in this very thread telling others they are inadequate because they want to understand or share some technical basics or provide some general guidelines, as if that's not telling another how to be themselves.

That old line about teachers was dropped earlier.  What a load of rubbish.  Those who can do but refuse to teach, or insist on bowed before first, are the lowest of the low.

[KLaban]

Perhaps the article and this discussion wouldn't have been quite so contentious had it been titled something other than the Definitive Guide?

;-)

[Farmer]

Perhaps, or perhaps if people just said, "I don't think it's well titled - it's hardly definitive - but it's a good primer.  I would recommend taking those basics and then experimenting for yourself and understanding why these are useful starting points, oh, and try reading this, this, and that...".

[Rob C]

1.  It doesn't need to be a nursery, but neither does it need to be a place where deigning to speak without an invitation results in a backlash.

2.  That's the problem.  People can criticise something to their hearts content, but there's no need to be abusive about it or to categorise others as somehow being lesser being for having the audacity to take a different approach or to see benefit in things like primers.

"...nobody else has a right to tell another how to be himself."

3..And yet we have people in this very thread telling others they are inadequate because they want to understand or share some technical basics or provide some general guidelines, as if that's not telling another how to be themselves.

4. That old line about teachers was dropped earlier.  What a load of rubbish.  Those who can do but refuse to teach, or insist on bowed before first, are the lowest of the low.

1.  So where does one apply for the permit to speak out, or, perhaps, should that be: where does one apply for a permit to disagree with Phil?

2.  Where has anyone in this thread abused anyone else? (I think of the term abuse in its traditional form, not the politically correct one popular today, where to disagree is to abuse. If it's your definition, then there's nowhere left for any discussion with you to go.)

3.  Nope, nobody is calling them inadequate; if you read it better, the suggestion is that those peddling the superior understanding of how to be whatever, are the offenders selling the best oil of snake. What I would suggesrt, and do, is that the hopeful, wannabe person realises early on that he's being milked.

And before you go any further into the realm of straw sculpture, realise that I have always advocated the learning of photographic mechanics, which is essential to everyone wanting to get somewhere in the discipline. However, photographic mechanics do not make photographers. God makes good photographers as he makes good musicians, good authors, good cooks or successful growers of pretty flowers.

4. I think you'll find the answer in my 3. above, unless you prefer to look the other way instead. Our last dog did that every time she saw something she thought a threat. We loved her so much we never felt able to replace her; but she was a pooch

[Farmer]

1.  So where does one apply for the permit to speak out, or, perhaps, should that be: where does one apply for a permit to disagree with Phil?

2.  Where has anyone in this thread abused anyone else? (I think of the term abuse in its traditional form, not the politically correct one popular today, where to disagree is to abuse. If it's your definition, then there's nowhere left for any discussion with you to go.)

3.  Nope, nobody is calling them inadequate; if you read it better, the suggestion is that those peddling the superior understanding of how to be whatever, are the offenders selling the best oil of snake. What I would suggesrt, and do, is that the hopeful, wannabe person realises early on that he's being milked.

And before you go any further into the realm of straw sculpture, realise that I have always advocated the learning of photographic mechanics, which is essential to everyone wanting to get somewhere in the discipline. However, photographic mechanics do not make photographers. God makes good photographers as he makes good musicians, good authors, good cooks or successful growers of pretty flowers.

4. I think you'll find the answer in my 3. above, unless you prefer to look the other way instead. Our last dog did that every time she saw something she thought a threat. We loved her so much we never felt able to replace her; but she was a pooch

1. Are you kidding?  I haven't told anyone to stop speaking and I didn't attack a new poster.  I rebutted some tired old nonsense from a couple of people who responded with little more than waffle.

2. Again, are you kidding?  Calling people names, names which the callers clearly consider to be derisive, is being abusive.

3. Ah, I see.  You either have it or you don't.  Again, nonesense.  Most people can become good at most things.  Greatness?  That's more limited, but it's hardly predestined that you can only be great at one particular thing.

I never suggested that you have ever advocated otherwise and, I agree with that approach.  I don't agree with way in which some of the people expressed their disdain for anyone who might read to learn something before they embark on practicals

4. Oh, dear.  I bet you think this song is about you, don't you?

[Rob C]

1. Are you kidding?  I haven't told anyone to stop speaking and I didn't attack a new poster.  I rebutted some tired old nonsense from a couple of people who responded with little more than waffle.

2. Again, are you kidding?  Calling people names, names which the callers clearly consider to be derisive, is being abusive.

3. Ah, I see.  You either have it or you don't.  Again, nonesense.  Most people can become good at most things.  Greatness?  That's more limited, but it's hardly predestined that you can only be great at one particular thing.

I never suggested that you have ever advocated otherwise and, I agree with that approach.  I don't agree with way in which some of the people expressed their disdain for anyone who might read to learn something before they embark on practicals

4. Oh, dear.  I bet you think this song is about you, don't you?

That made me smile! Thanks for some levity this morning, I'll now go and have my shower and try not to sing that number in the echo chamber.

(I know I can't sing, hence the concern with upsetting the good, patient folks in the apartment above.)

;-)

[KLaban]

Perhaps, or perhaps if people just said, "I don't think it's well titled - it's hardly definitive - but it's a good primer.  I would recommend taking those basics and then experimenting for yourself and understanding why these are useful starting points, oh, and try reading this, this, and that...".

...start from a blank sheet, look at the world and find something that inspires you, something that you are passionate about. Express yourself and learn from your own mistakes. Above all be yourself and true to yourself.

It's certainly the approach I would take if ever I found myself in the extremely unlikely position of being a mentor. Would it result in prizes at the camera club or kudos on a workshop, a forum, or deliver qualifications, I don't know and care less, it's simply the way I learnt. Esoteric enough?

Your approach is perfectly valid and is no doubt the more conventional but I believe there is room for other pathways.

Perhaps another way of saying you're not going to turn my head and I doubt I'll turn yours. End of.

;-)

[Rob C]

...start from a blank sheet, look at the world and find something that inspires you, something that you are passionate about. Express yourself and learn from your own mistakes. Above all be yourself and true to yourself.

It's certainly the approach I would take if ever I found myself in the extremely unlikely position of being a mentor. Would it result in prizes at the camera club or kudos on a workshop, a forum, or deliver qualifications, I don't know and care less, it's simply the way I learnt.

Your approach is perfectly valid and is no doubt the more conventional but I believe there is room for other pathways.

Esoteric enough?

Perhaps another way of saying you're not going to turn my head and I doubt I'll turn yours.

;-)

That, Keith, is the key to it all.

Without the drive in a specific direction you are just walking in circles. It is exactly why I never felt any problems with getting into photography (other than the inconvenient one of finding people to pay me to do and keep doing it): I already knew where I was going to go, and that gave me all the guidance I needed other than learning how to be a better printer.

Time and again it returns to olde Donovan's "the greatest problem for the amateur is finding a reason to make a photograph." That original indecision (sin?) undermines the entire process and opens the doors to the soothsayers who try to sell you their patent bill of goods.

It doesn't matter what kind of picture it is you're seeking: just get the hell out there and try it for yourself, by yourself, and as far away from other photographers - especially more experienced ones - as you can get.

That's how you discover who you are, and what you can do.

The rest, at the risk of boring myself with repetitions, is mechanics. Without being condescending, if you have no greater drive, use your cellphone: it gives you more than you will probably ever need.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...start from a blank sheet, look at the world and find something that inspires you, something that you are passionate about. Express yourself...

All fine, but nothing to do with composition.

... and learn from your own mistakes...

Learn!? How dare you trying to improve on God’s work? Blasfemy! 

Besides, as the saying goes, learn from other people’s mistakes, life is too short to make them all yourself.

... Above all be yourself...

The worst first-date advice ever 

[KLaban]

All fine, but nothing to do with composition.

It's simple, compose as you see fit.

;-)

[Ivo_B]

How could I mis this conversation .....


I have a nice collection of old books about photographic techniques. Some inherited from my father and some found on flee markets.
I learned a lot out of these books and it helped me to understand how photography moved along during social en technical changes in the past decades.

One of this nice books is a post WWII (1945) Dutch School book: "Compositieleer in de fotografie" Composition theory in Photography.
Very interesting lecture about what elements in the scenery can be used to make the composition. Contrast, graphic, key, DOF, etc etc. (Color is not mentioned because the age of the book) Good reading. And then the book gets serious.
It get's clear the book is written by a math teacher who is passionate about his camera. The book overshoots tremendously towards a trigonometric explanation of dividing the planes, composing the lines, etc etc. One section is devoted to explain the compositions of the renaissance painter, this is a very painful section. I guess the author had to pull out all his mathematical knowledge to draw all those silly lines over one of the explained works.

Another examples is a shot of a bath suit girl, The girl was directed into the ideal composition according the circle deviations he had in mind. See below......... Judge yourself.
And the most painful aspect of the book is that there is no single one interesting picture in the book. All are utterly boring, but perfectly matched to the rules of composition....

It is here where thing go wrong. If rules or definitions get the overhand the blind spot grows until the level that the image doesn't matter anymore, as long it obeyes the rules and/or definition.

I believe it is good to understand rules, definitions, technical stuff and all the other laws circling around photography (and any other expression form). If you are not a virtuoso, they will help to make something technically correct.

You can only put the soul in things with virtuosity, and this is a gift the most of use don't have.


It is a photo club thing, judging pictures on the rules and definitions.....

[KLaban]

There you go, Rob, all that angst over all those years of shooting models in the great outdoors when all you really needed was a simple diagram!

Ivo, just kidding.

;-)

[Ivo_B]

There you go, Rob, all that angst over all those years of shooting models in the great outdoors when all you really needed was a simple diagram!

Ivo, just kidding.

;-)

Ab-So-Lu-Te-Ly


And with a nifty tool like this in the pocket, you can't go wrong.