Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?

[eronald]

I was just looking at the dpreview tests and the two cameras are incredibly close. Of course if Hassy gets a new 100MP sensor they won't  be.

So I was wondering about real life - what do people here think - do they see the difference?

Edmund

[BernardLanguillier]

I was just looking at the dpreview tests and the two cameras are incredibly close. Of course if Hassy gets a new 100MP sensor they won't  be.

So I was wondering about real life - what do people here think - do they see the difference?

The resolution is very close, the sensor size isn't that different and the lower base ISO of the D850 sensor ensures that it can capture as many photons.

There is really little theoretical reason why they should differ a lot and the tests confirm that. The same applies to the GFX by the way.

Yes, 100mp sensors will open the gap again, but overall there is no reason why Nikon shouldn't be able to release a 90mp version of the D850 sensor that would be just as good. But... that will probably happen as a mirrorless camera I guess.

Now, the X1D lenses are really good, and I would say overall better than the best DSLR lenses - except perhas the Otus - but I guess that that mirrorless Nikon lenses will be out of this world good too...

I remain un-convinced by 33x44mm sensors. Not worth it IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

[SrMi]

I was just looking at the dpreview tests and the two cameras are incredibly close. Of course if Hassy gets a new 100MP sensor they won't  be.

So I was wondering about real life - what do people here think - do they see the difference?

Edmund

The sensor size difference between X1D and D850 is similar to the difference between APS-C and m43. When I took both X1D and D850 for a walk, I found X1D images to be slightly better than D850's  (color, detail). The difference I saw may have been caused by the difference in lenses.

[jensputzier]

I have both systems and haven't compared them side by side yet. The only thing I can say is that the X1D has motivated me again to go out and shoot. Somehow the "less is more" side of the Hasselblad in connection with the solid built appeals to me. A little bit like in the old Contax days.

[BernardLanguillier]

One aspect I like about this discussion is that the MF myth are pretty much dead.

A few years ago it was just impossible to have a factual discussion and to claim that the difference between a D800 and a Phaseone P31+ was small... although we now know for a fact that the DSLR was superior by a significant margin.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Doug Peterson]

A few years ago it was just impossible to have a factual discussion and to claim that the difference between a D800 and a Phaseone P31+ was small... although we now know for a fact that the DSLR was superior by a significant margin.

In what way? Pure number of pixels? Shooting test targets under perfectly controlled strobe? Looking at spec sheets?

In a more wholistic analysis (without diving too deep into specific use cases):
In favor of a P30+: color (bespoke profiles in Capture One), tonality and transitional rendering, skin rendition, medium format lenses, native leaf-shutter sync speeds, availability of waist level viewfinder, longevity of ownership (we still have P30+ shooters; it was released in 2007), simplicity of interface, AA filter free sharpness, differentiation from a million shooters using D-something-something, speed and consistency of tethering and durability of the tethering port, pro service/support/training, option to use on a tech camera or view camera. Option to use on bodies people have beyond-the-spec emotional relationships, with like the Hasselblad 500, Contax 645 or Mamiya RZ.
In favor of a D800: price, size, weight, very-high ISO, IS lenses, sports-grade Autofocus, availability of very very long lenses.

I'd have thought in the years of this forum, we would have come beyond pixel counting or pure-spec comparisons. I bought a Pontiac Solstice GXP for a few years right out of college; on paper (i.e. per the specs) it was really pretty close to some really nice sports car, and I'd be the first to tell you it was a nice fun car to drive and a great value per dollar, but I'd also tell you in a heartbeat it wasn't a Porsche, let alone a Maserati.

Also note that the D800 is 5 years more recent than the P30+ and I think for what the P30+ did well (e.g. not sports or low-light PJ) it was a much better tool than the D800. A more appropriate temporal comparison would be the P65+ (full frame 645 sensor with 60 megapixel sensor that was widely-seen as better for skin tone, and with a faster capture rate and Sensor+ mode) vs the D800 which favors the P1 even more.

*Technically the P30+ didn't do very well on a tech or view camera, but the similar P45+ and P25+ did.

[pschefz]

Option to use on bodies people have beyond-the-spec emotional relationships, with like the Hasselblad 500, Contax 645 or Mamiya RZ.

and that special relations ship was forever destroyed by looking through the once beautiful and large finder and facing that mask......

sorry, those backs were at the time the best option to get a certain quality....at the time....the hassle was incredible....
i would recommend to shoot film any day over shooting vintage digital backs....and vintage i really mean any digital back....

there is a difference between GFX/X1D and d850/A7RIII files.....but one has to dig deep because at a scene that both systems can handle in terms of DR, at 100% there wont be a difference....once we get into shadow recovery and color in those recovered shadows, there is a difference.....format is a difference.....a vertical 30x40 print from a 3x4 sensor will obviously have more native resolution.....

the 100mpix models will provide a better step up for sure....they should also close the now considerable gap (in favor of sony nikon) in terms of handling, speed, overall functionality......they will also hurt digital backs even more....

so this will go on and on, with sony and nikon coming out with more and better as well.....i would really like to see they get away from the 24x36 random film dimensions....

[eronald]

In what way? Pure number of pixels? Shooting test targets under perfectly controlled strobe? Looking at spec sheets?

Doug,

Let's make this about people who have used both the X1D and an 850D, and their subjective impressions.
If you want to come in as a private citizen and tell us your impressions ... there is no question about Phase here.

Edmund

[Steve Hendrix]

Doug,

Let's make this about people who have used both the X1D and an 850D, and their subjective impressions.
If you want to come in as a private citizen and tell us your impressions ... there is no question about Phase here.

Edmund

So anyone can introduce Phase One as a topic and make opinionated commentary about Phase One products/performance except for Doug?




Steve Hendrix/CI

[pschefz]

So anyone can introduce Phase One as a topic and make opinionated commentary about Phase One products/performance except for Doug?




Steve Hendrix/CI

i think it is pretty obvious that this concerns all dealers....as much as professional help and support is welcome and often needed to clear things up....this is about users opinions, not a sales pitch....

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... there is no question about Phase here.

There was.

[Steve Hendrix]

i think it is pretty obvious that this concerns all dealers....as much as professional help and support is welcome and often needed to clear things up....this is about users opinions, not a sales pitch....

Not all dealers contribute sales pitches. And while some dealers may veer into sales pitch, I think you are intelligent enough to point out the difference instead of completely censoring those who have more information than you about a topic.

This forum is a source of information for thousands of members. No matter what products are discussed, Phase One, Hasselblad, Leica, Fuji, etc, they deserve accurate information. That has been my mission since Day One, and if you don't think that I provide accurate information, then your anti-dealer bias is showing.


Steve Hendrix/CI

[Manoli]

There was.

#11 posts and there’s bitchin’ already.
Bernard introduced Phase, off topic, in post #4.
Edmund, the OP, started a thread whose title is pretty much self-explanatory and evident.

What ya say that we stay on-topic - just once ?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

#11 posts and there’s bitchin’ already.
Bernard introduced Phase, off topic, in post #4.
Edmund, the OP, started a thread whose title is pretty much self-explanatory and evident.

What ya say that we stay on-topic - just once ?

What a shocker, a meandering thread. This one stays pretty close though.

If the OP topic was a specific medium format against specific 35mm format, it is pretty natural that the topic might expand to include general comments about medium format vs. 35mm  format.

[BernardLanguillier]

#11 posts and there’s bitchin’ already.
Bernard introduced Phase, off topic, in post #4.
Edmund, the OP, started a thread whose title is pretty much self-explanatory and evident.

What ya say that we stay on-topic - just once ?

My deepest apologies. My post was just about how appreciative I am about a discussion about DSKR vs “MF” rooted in cold facts instead of magical qualities. P1 was mentioned as one example but I could have written H4D-40 just as easily.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

My deepest apologies. My post was just about how appreciative I am about a discussion about DSKR vs “MF” rooted in cold facts instead of magical qualities. P1 was mentioned as one example but I could have written H4D-40 just as easily.

Cheers,
Bernard

This feels like one of the taxi rides where you want to go 1/4 mile and the driver takes you all around town
is there anyone who can actually comment from first-hand knowledge about the X1D vs 850D or maybe A7R3?
I've pixel peeped dpr and son't see much difference, but the real world often holds surprises banished from the lab.

Edmund

[pschefz]

This feels like one of the taxi rides where you want to go 1/4 mile and the driver takes you all around town
is there anyone who can actually comment from first-hand knowledge about the X1D vs 850D or maybe A7R3?
I've pixel peeped dpr and son't see much difference, but the real world often holds surprises banished from the lab.

Edmund

i ended up with the GFX after testing the X1D vs A7RII and honestly wasnt blown away....i did prefer the GFX files to the X1D but overall handling and AF made my mind up to go with the GFX...
i have since shot with the D850, A7RIII and GFX and compared files (i wont go into handling)
when files are pushed A LOT, the GFX holds up slightly better....both the D850 and A7RIII kind of fall apart after crazy adjustments, the GFX does not....this might be subjective as well but underexposed and opened up shadows on nikon/sony turn to color noise, on the GFX those areas turn to a more monochromatic mush....which i prefer.....
a vertical 8x10 portrait crop gives you more resolution from the 33x44 sensor....
it is very very close....very close.....

[BobShaw]

My deepest apologies. My post was just about how appreciative I am about a discussion about DSKR vs “MF” rooted in cold facts instead of magical qualities. P1 was mentioned as one example but I could have written H4D-40 just as easily.

What magical or in the previous comment mythical qualities are you talking about?
Here's a myth. The Sensor on even the X1D is 1.6 times the sensor size on the 35mm camera. Oh, hang on, that's actually a fact.
What other technical advantage of 60% can you get by a simple kit change?

Also every comparison of 35mm vs MF seems to be between a new 35mm and a ten year old MF. Maybe that's because MF cameras actually last 10 years (and used to cost the price of a pretty good car).

I can't speak of the D850 but I own a 35mm 50MP camera and also owned a Hasselblad H4D with a 39MP back from and H3dII on it. Unless it was sport, travel or climbing mountains i would always prefer the images from the medium format. I just sold most of the H kit and bought the X1D for less money. Although I am using the H series lenses at the moment I see myself eventually moving to XCD and maybe Canon TSE. It lighter, easier and more fun to use the X1D than the 35mm DSLR.

Last week a did a test shoot for a high end bag company. They already had all of the images on the website but were unhappy with them. They loved the colour and richness of the X1D images and I got the job. If colour accuracy and reproduction is important then it will pay for itself. They also loved being able to monitor and rate the images on the iPad while I shot them.

If you think that the 35mm is better then keep using it, please.

[SrMi]

This feels like one of the taxi rides where you want to go 1/4 mile and the driver takes you all around town
is there anyone who can actually comment from first-hand knowledge about the X1D vs 850D or maybe A7R3?
I've pixel peeped dpr and son't see much difference, but the real world often holds surprises banished from the lab.

Edmund

I own and use regularly all three cameras (X1D, D850, and A7R3). In real-world photography, I find X1D images of slightly better quality.
Of course, there are images where the difference is not obvious, and where other cameras are better tools than X1D.

[Kirk_C]

They loved the colour and richness of the X1D images and I got the job. If colour accuracy and reproduction is important then it will pay for itself.

Did you use Phocus ?

From my experience the color from the X1D is not the same without it.