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Author Topic: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?  (Read 7283 times)

hubell

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2018, 07:15:38 pm »

I now shoot an X1D. I also have an A7RII with some of the best native lenses for it, but only for backup if the X1D ever fails. (It hasn't, and is the first medium format digital camera system that I have owned over the past 12 years that has not failed on me.) The differences in the files are quite apparent to me on screen and in prints above 16" x 20". It's sort of like two cars. They both can go 100 mph, but one car handles that speed effortlessly and the other car feels stressed and vibrates. The X1D files handle sharpening, cropping, tonal and color adjustment, and upressing so much better. The Sony A7RII files seem to fall apart quickly when I push them. They just don't seem malleable to me.
I will also say that I would shoot with the X1D even if the files from a Nikon 850 were the same. The experience of shooting with one camera versus another is very important to me. I have never enjoyed shooting with Japanese digital cameras.  (I did like my old Nikon Ftn.)

pschefz

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2018, 09:55:10 pm »

IMO there is quite a difference between the A7RII and A7RIII files.....i totally agree that GFX/X1D are a pretty obvious step up from A7RII but i honestly dont see that much difference to A7RIII....especially when massaging files....
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2018, 02:37:49 am »

Hi Edmund,

Sony has a web-page listing the modifications. It's things like microlenses, packaging and somewhat faster readout compared with the 'normal' sensor.

But we don't know if similar modifications were done for say Hasselblad.

Best regards
Erik

Exactly my feeling. Nice work but not direct. If I'm right he uses the equation sysmtf(nu)=lensmtf(nu)*sensormtf(nu), models lensmtf(nu), measures sysmtf(nu) with mtfmapper and thus derives  an evaluation of sensormtf(nu) conditioned by a large number of model assumptions.

I think one might find a more direct method, although maybe because of the packaging of the sensor one can't. I can't find the paper I once read, I think it was written by a guy in Toulouse in remote sensing who had access to the sensor fab.

There is one thing I do wonder about - I thought the Fuji had the Sony sensor, but if it is optimised ?!

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2018, 11:43:54 am »

Hi Edmund,

Sony has a web-page listing the modifications. It's things like microlenses, packaging and somewhat faster readout compared with the 'normal' sensor.

But we don't know if similar modifications were done for say Hasselblad.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik -

 If you had a link handy ...

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2018, 11:56:47 am »

Hi Edmund,

I am looking for it... But I cannot find it.

If I find it I will share the link...

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik -

 If you had a link handy ...

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2018, 12:02:13 pm »

Hi Edmund,

Check this one: https://fujifilm-x.com/it/x-stories/gfx-technologies-1/

In general, I am not taking things at face value. But this is what Fuji says they have changed...

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik -

 If you had a link handy ...

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2018, 12:09:52 pm »

Hi Edmund,

Check this one: https://fujifilm-x.com/it/x-stories/gfx-technologies-1/

In general, I am not taking things at face value. But this is what Fuji says they have changed...

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

Thank you. I wonder whether Hassy got the same mods for free :)
Otherwise the X1D would be less sharp than the Fuji.


btw, I have written Jim, I'm not really happy with the sensor MTF calculation ...

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2018, 05:00:10 pm »

Hi Edmund,

The X1D is smaller than the GFX, so I guess they would also need a small package.

I have not seen a lot of great raw images from the X1D, but I would think that sharpness is comparable to Fuji. Jim Kasson has done a great deal of good stuff on the GFX and that may cause some bias with me. But, I think that the X1D is probable as good.

Jared Wilson has shared some good stuff with X1D over at DPReview.

Would be nice if Lensrentals would test medium format lenses, but they are not geared for that, AFAIK. Hasselblad has published measured MTF data for a long time and I would suggest their data is accurate. But no one is publishing corresponding MTF data for the Fuji lenses. The MTF graphs Fuji shows are calculated values, ignoring diffraction as far as I can recall.

My guess is that the GFX and the X1D would outperform the Hasselblad H6D50c and the Phase One IQ350. Once the 100 MP versions arrive, I would not be surprised if they also outperformed present generation 100 Mp on 54x41 mm.

I think that megapixels are a bit underrated, after all, it is the pixels that carry all the information. Spending a lot on lenses and staying with a moderate pixel count does not make sense in the short term. In the long term it may be different. A great lens bought today may be an excellent performer combined with the next generation of sensors. But, companies like Canon are modernising their lenses. The not so good 16-35/2.8L has developed into the excellent 16-35/2.8LIII, just as an example.

If you don't need all those megapixels, it may make a lot of sense to go with a smaller sensor, like APS-c or 4/3. A lot of quality work is done using small formats.

Best regards
Erik


Erik,

Thank you. I wonder whether Hassy got the same mods for free :)
Otherwise the X1D would be less sharp than the Fuji.


btw, I have written Jim, I'm not really happy with the sensor MTF calculation ...

Edmund
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bbrantley

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #48 on: August 27, 2018, 11:24:33 pm »

I shot the x1d for about six months/1,000 images and now the d850 for about a year.  I shoot mostly static abstract subjects, some semi-macro.  My target is large prints, generally 3 feet or greater in whichever is the smaller dimension.  I sometimes shoot on tripod, but a lot of the time I am constrained to handheld.  About half the time I am focus-stacking because of DOF limitations or I will shoot a two- to three-image pano for more resolution.  I never do both, because I am lazy and the success rate is too low.

My gold standard for best imaging for my type of imaging is, by far, Hasselblad multishot, but I have never personally shot that camera because of cost and hassle factor.

I shoot the d850 with Zeiss 100/2 or 135/2 almost exclusively, and likewise the XCD 90mm on x1d.

My opinion is that they are really quite close.  My XCD 90 was a little bit better the Zeiss 100, but then the 135 was a tiny bit better still.  The lens differences are small, and mostly apply wide open where I don't use the much, and yet they are usually what makes it so I can see a small difference.  After post-processing, it is very difficult to see a difference.

The 4:3 ratio at 50MP does yield more information for a squarer-aspect image, of course.  My images tend to be squarer, so this yields a small but noticeable advantage.

On the other hand, to me the d850 feels much more responsive and has better haptics/ergonomics.  The MF helicoid is also my favorite, although the xcd focus by wire is really quite good.  I have more confidence in d850 in inclement conditions, and I can have two of them for the same price, and I generally try to carry two bodies on trips.

I would happily shoot with either and not regret it, but I think the d850 is the clear winner for the kind of stuff I like to shoot.  I'll happily move back to an x2d or whatever else when the time comes, though.  And if anyone offers a multishot implementation on a modern sensor, well, that would be the bee's knees.





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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Can anyone see the difference between the X1 and D850 images?
« Reply #49 on: August 27, 2018, 11:34:28 pm »

Hi,

Thanks for good and interesting info.

Best regards
Erik

I shot the x1d for about six months/1,000 images and now the d850 for about a year.  I shoot mostly static abstract subjects, some semi-macro.  My target is large prints, generally 3 feet or greater in whichever is the smaller dimension.  I sometimes shoot on tripod, but a lot of the time I am constrained to handheld.  About half the time I am focus-stacking because of DOF limitations or I will shoot a two- to three-image pano for more resolution.  I never do both, because I am lazy and the success rate is too low.

My gold standard for best imaging for my type of imaging is, by far, Hasselblad multishot, but I have never personally shot that camera because of cost and hassle factor.

I shoot the d850 with Zeiss 100/2 or 135/2 almost exclusively, and likewise the XCD 90mm on x1d.

My opinion is that they are really quite close.  My XCD 90 was a little bit better the Zeiss 100, but then the 135 was a tiny bit better still.  The lens differences are small, and mostly apply wide open where I don't use the much, and yet they are usually what makes it so I can see a small difference.  After post-processing, it is very difficult to see a difference.

The 4:3 ratio at 50MP does yield more information for a squarer-aspect image, of course.  My images tend to be squarer, so this yields a small but noticeable advantage.

On the other hand, to me the d850 feels much more responsive and has better haptics/ergonomics.  The MF helicoid is also my favorite, although the xcd focus by wire is really quite good.  I have more confidence in d850 in inclement conditions, and I can have two of them for the same price, and I generally try to carry two bodies on trips.

I would happily shoot with either and not regret it, but I think the d850 is the clear winner for the kind of stuff I like to shoot.  I'll happily move back to an x2d or whatever else when the time comes, though.  And if anyone offers a multishot implementation on a modern sensor, well, that would be the bee's knees.
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