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Author Topic: Trump III - the daily log  (Read 54898 times)

Farmer

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #320 on: July 27, 2018, 06:50:15 pm »

What is easier:

- first 100 pushups
- or subsequent 100 pushups?

I don't know if you've ever done a lot of physical rehabilitation, but I had to learn to walk properly again after snapping my left leg in half and spending 4 months on crutches.  The first step was hard.  Expanding it to an actual walk was the hardest part.  Once I had basic movement and some degree of strength and stamina in the leg it became easier and easier.  That's a far better analogy for the economic situations being compared.

When an economy is tanked your monetary and fiscal policy stools are stretched (c.f. Japan's "lost decade" - which is now more than 2 decades long - where growth has been extremely slow and difficult to achieve).  It's harder to keep afloat the boat full of holes than it is to row it later once the holes are patched.

Trump's economic stewardship is still in its infancy.  Expenditure on infrastructure (note: walls don't count) was a genuinely tremendous idea and something from which the US could really benefit, but we haven't seen it materialise in the way that Trump promised.  His other approaches are naïve at best.  Some short term gain will result but with an overburdened debt the US government needs to maintain revenue whilst reducing costs (which obviously makes infrastructure investment difficult but mostly in the short term with significant long term benefits).

Trump is reducing government revenue in the medium to long term (assuming he maintains his current policies and remains in power) without cutting costs.  Indeed, he's pissing away money on this like his military parade.  Sure, in the overall scheme of the economy it's not a lot of money and it comes out of already approved budgets, but it means other things that would have normally been covered will no longer be able to be funded, just so he can play with his soldier toys.  His running costs are higher because he and his family don't spend most of their time at the WH and he constantly goes to his own resorts which cost more than using facilities like Camp David, for example.  Again, in the overall scheme of things not huge amounts, but it adds up and it tells a story of someone who really has no concept of having to worry about money.  He lacks a holistic view of the economy and instead just deals with little pockets of it.  He thinks he's done a great thing with the tariffs and then he has to bail out farmers and consumers have to pay the price for both.

Now let's look more at that 4.1% (which is a snapshot figure - so don't go comparing that to the average YoY figures).  What would cause that?  Trump?  Sure, definitely some impact there.  The current trade war has already fired some shots and that has had the effect of some global importers grabbing US made goods before retaliatory tariffs are put in place - so that's a short term impact.  In fact, net exports contributed 1% of that 4.1% quarterly growth - that's huge, an unsustainable (particualrly given that there hasn't been a massive resurgence in US manufacturing and because the USD hasn't dropped against other major currencies to make US exports more competitive - and that last fact is Trump policy to have a strong dollar and he's set the perfect storm for maitaining that, BTW).  Soybeans, for example and mentioned in this thread already, are cheap in the US at the moment and so are being bought, but that's not a long term trend.

Talking about manufacturing, you have GM warning that profits will be thinner due to increases in commodity costs due to the tariffs on steel and aluminium (OK, they reported it was due to aluminum because they're US based...).  Harley-Davidson expects to take a hit of $100m.

Government spending, also, contributed to that increase.  Unfortunately, it's not infrastructure spending so there's less potential for a good ROI there and at a time when the US is struggling with runaway debt, adding more to it and reducing revenue isn't helpful in the medium to long term.

Furthermore, those tax cuts haven't actually resulted in investment.  Equipment investment was slow, so there's no signs yet of any manufacturing revival which is what's required from tax cuts if you want a long term benefit in that area.  Just posting it to the bottom line and paying shareholders (or executives) doesn't help in the long term.

Redidential investment fell by 1.1% so even putting that tax cut cash in the minds of home owners or investors that they'll have more cash hasn't improved their optimism.  Housing is one of the powerhouse elements of the US economy.  So that's not good news.

Then you've got interest rates.  They're on the rise.  Trump thinks that's bad becuase he doesn't understand that the rates are at emergency levels and that a rise actually indicates a return to a more sustainable economic position.  Except, rises aren't likely to be sustained because the economy doesn't have long term recovery elements in place.  The yield curve is flattening out (which can be a sign of a recession, but not necessarily).  Basically, the market isn't banking on higher borrowings which would be supported by economic growth - because the market can't see a sustained economic growth (and, yes, that can and usually is a self-fulfilling prophecy - but the GOP loves the market, right?).

Other concerns are that economies move in cycles and the current recovering from the GFC has been quite long so there is a real possibility of underlying cyclical factors pushing against sustained growth.  That's not a foregone conclusion.  Australia hasn't had a recession since June 1991 - but you can't really look to the exceptions as a guide regarding typical perfomance.

And in real terms, how has this flowed through to the workers that Trump promised would benefit?  Well, real wage growth has been slipping since Trump took over.  It actualkly went negative (just slightly) last month which is certainly a "peak and trough" bump because it's only a monthly figure, but the overall trend has been down and the levels were not high to begin with. So, yeah, tax cuts have not flowed through to workers.  And bear in mind that most companies sorted out their books and returned to very good profitability years ago, having recovered from the GFC, so it's not as though they're trying to recover their financial positions.  They're just not passing on the cuts to workers.

So, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done but there are more tools available now than when the economy was weaker when Obama took over.  It should be easier now, not harder.
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Phil Brown

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #321 on: July 27, 2018, 06:51:02 pm »

... Me give you a summary? Please...

A friendly reminder about forum etiquette when posting external links:



Farmer

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #322 on: July 27, 2018, 06:51:12 pm »

I don't have 15 minutes why don't you give me a summary of the salient points.

You're retired and spent hours a day on this message board. 
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #323 on: July 27, 2018, 06:55:57 pm »

A friendly reminder about forum etiquette when posting external links:

Andrew is responding to Alan's claims about what was said by providing an actual link to what was said.  Andrew has already effectively summarised it over numerous posts and indicated why it's relevant (it directly refutes Alan''s claims as to what was said).  Alan now declines going into the data in depth to verify.  Andrew has no further obligation.  The rules (which, honestly, are a bit silly - if people aren't interested in reading the data that's up to them) don't require an essay - just a summary.  The summary is, "the link proves that your claims are wrong because it shows what was actually said by the person in question", which also shows its relevance.
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #324 on: July 27, 2018, 06:59:00 pm »

A friendly reminder about forum etiquette when posting external links:
And I provided text! You want to view the video and attempt to explain it to Alan who at least today now knows who Mr. Hassett is and that he doesn't hate Trump?
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #325 on: July 27, 2018, 07:04:37 pm »

You're retired and spent hours a day on this message board.
Some are retired from examining facts, learning new concepts or getting outside their self inflected bubbles. At least one retiree now knows who Mr. Hassett is and who he works for. As for his ideas about GDP, well that retiree will have to attempt to focus 15 minutes of his very valuable time on the video that largely allows Mr. Hassett to explain what his boss is trying to do with Mr. Hassett's assistance (if I can be so kind). That 'liberal' economist doesn't come on until the last couple of minutes, allowing a retiree to stop the video and ignore the other side of a discussion, reinforcing the bubble.
Just because a video is on MSNBC, only retirees in bubbles will admit to ignoring it due to the station itself, rather than the people they interview. IOW, it's not FOX fake news;D
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #326 on: July 27, 2018, 07:08:37 pm »

Phil,

You certainly know that it is easier to achieve a higher percentage growth from a low base than from a high base, no need to demonstrate that to you at least (it might be necessary for some who got their PhD in googling and youtubing quite recently).

I am glad that the most recent growth is 4.1%, not matter who takes the credit. That it is better than a lower figure is obvious. How sustainable it is, we will see. As you said, economies move in cycles.

You and I know that assigning credit or blame for economic numbers to sitting presidents is a tricky game. Was the mortgage crisis a Bush' fault or Clinton's (for his housing initiative)? Or was it a confluence of events, stemming from different presidential terms and forming a perfect storm under the then-sitting president? There are many arguments pro and con and the jury is still out. It is without doubt that Obama inherited a lousy economy. It is also clear that the economy took longer than usual to recover. Was it Obama's fault? Up to a point. Was the latest 4.1% growth to Trump's credit. Up to a point. But neither Trump nor anyone else should get obsessed with quarterly numbers. Because when the downturn comes, and it inevitably will, those who took the credit for the growth won't be able to escape the blame either.

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #328 on: July 27, 2018, 07:17:35 pm »

Hypocrisy hit parade once again...

What are you talking about? I did provide the summary, relevant for the quoted text:

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #329 on: July 27, 2018, 07:20:59 pm »

What are you talking about? I did provide the summary, relevant for the quoted text:
What are you talking about? I did provide a summery, relevant for the quoted text:
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #330 on: July 27, 2018, 07:23:52 pm »

Andrew is responding to Alan's claims about what was said by providing an actual link to what was said.  Andrew has already effectively summarised it over numerous posts and indicated why it's relevant (it directly refutes Alan''s claims as to what was said).  Alan now declines going into the data in depth to verify.  Andrew has no further obligation.  The rules (which, honestly, are a bit silly - if people aren't interested in reading the data that's up to them) don't require an essay - just a summary.  The summary is, "the link proves that your claims are wrong because it shows what was actually said by the person in question", which also shows its relevance.


Phil, that  does not make sense at all. It started with Andrew posting a link without a word of explanation. No subsequent post provides any summary or what the point is. If I missed that, please help me find it. Not too many people would sacrifice 15 minutes of their life, retired or not, to watch something recommended by people with Andrew's "expertise."

This is the post. Where is the summary or the main point?

Farmer

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #331 on: July 27, 2018, 07:28:23 pm »

But neither Trump nor anyone else should get obsessed with quarterly numbers. Because when the downturn comes, and it inevitably will, those who took the credit for the growth won't be able to escape the blame either.

Exactly right, and yet he and his followers (largely) are absolutely obsessed with it.

Also, your comment about higher percentages from lower bases is true, but it misses the point that the base wasn't particularly low in the sense that you're using.

Have a look at the graph at the end of this link (which, in summary, is a visualisation of the United States GDP per Capita in constant 2000 USD over time sourced from the World Bank and visualised by Google via their Public Data tool - constant 2000 dollars make comparing one year to another possible by effectively removing inflation):

https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_pcap_kd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:USA&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

When Obama took over in 2009 it was about $47.5k just after the GFC.  When Trump took over in 2017 it was $53.1k.  That's a change of 11.8%.  So it's simply not accurate to suggest that there was a massive difference in the base level of the economies between the two starting points.

Now, if you really want to talk about growth rates - over the same periods, check this link which is GDP growth rates for the US with the same source and visualisation tools:

https://www.google.com.au/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:USA&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

So Obama had to turn around from a GDP growth rate of -2.78% in 2009 where as Trump started at +2.27%.  In your mind, it was easier for Obama because things were so bad, but with the economy in free fall, have growth reducing in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008 before that point - before the GFC - I'd say the momentum was far more against Obama that for Trump who took over after growth in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016.  Up and down but in a pretty common cycle and remaining positive.  Is it harder to get off the ground after falling 5 stories or after you've walked up and down a few stairs?
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Phil Brown

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #332 on: July 27, 2018, 07:30:19 pm »

... I did provide a summery, relevant for the quoted text:

So what exactly you were refuting from what Alan said with that screen shot?

This is what Alan (and the news) said:

Quote
Second-quarter US GDP jumps 4.1% for best pace in nearly four years

Which means since 2014. How do Obama's quarters from before 2014 refute that claim?

Farmer

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #333 on: July 27, 2018, 07:30:36 pm »

Phil, that  does not make sense at all. It started with Andrew posting a link without a word of explanation. No subsequent post provides any summary or what the point is. If I missed that, please help me find it. Not too many people would sacrifice 15 minutes of their life, retired or not, to watch something recommended by people with Andrew's "expertise."

This is the post. Where is the summary or the main point?


It's right in the image.  It's about historical GDP as Andrew mentioned.  As I said, a summary is called for - not an essay.
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #334 on: July 27, 2018, 07:31:00 pm »

Phil, that  does not make sense at all. It started with Andrew posting a link without a word of explanation. No subsequent post provides any summary or what the point is. If I missed that, please help me find it. Not too many people would sacrifice 15 minutes of their life, retired or not, to watch something recommended by people with Andrew's "expertise."

This is the post. Where is the summary or the main point?
Yes, you clearly missed it but that's not a surprise to some of us here. Try once again to focus on the post and the 8 words (one actually being an acronym) if you can. If not, that's fine too. I'm not taking you seriously and it appears Phil doesn't either, at least in terms of your so called friendly reminder about forum etiquette that appears to a few here to be just another dose of hypocrisy.
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #335 on: July 27, 2018, 07:31:54 pm »

So what exactly you were refuting from what Alan said with that screen shot?

This is what Alan (and the news) said:

Which means since 2014. How do Obama's quarters from before 2014 refute that claim?

That's 4.1% is nothing special for a quarterly figure.
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #336 on: July 27, 2018, 07:35:12 pm »

But neither Trump nor anyone else should get obsessed with quarterly numbers.
Trump is rather obsessed and calls out the reports (or did the last) prior to the official numbers release. But the bigger point is, had you or better, Alan actually viewed the video I posted, you'd see that all THREE speakers agree that most (not all, silly to speak for everyone as we see so often here) shouldn't get obsessed with quarterly numbers AND WHY.
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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #337 on: July 27, 2018, 07:36:31 pm »

... In your mind, it was easier for Obama because things were so bad...

I'll use the same graph once again. The red arrow points to the bottom under Obama, from which there was only up, and the growth rates surely would look more impressive from a low start.

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #338 on: July 27, 2018, 07:37:14 pm »

That's 4.1% is nothing special for a quarterly figure.
Exactly, AND, as we see in this egregious URL I posted with an actual screen dump, Obama was able to top that several times.   
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trump III - the daily log
« Reply #339 on: July 27, 2018, 07:37:18 pm »

That's 4.1% is nothing special for a quarterly figure.

And nobody argued it is something special. The news was "the best rate since 2014."
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