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Author Topic: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced  (Read 3646 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2018, 08:28:41 PM »

Bernard: Sometimes it can be nice to use technically imperfect lenses. Sometimes I use 50 year old manual lenses for the pleasing rendering: AIS Nikkors (50 f/1.2, 105 f/2.5), adapted to Canon. And sometimes people accept old lenses as "capable of doing the job" for the level of resolution that they need. I have a much-loved 7-element 400mm f/5.6L no-IS lens that I use for birding, especially freehand bird-in-flight work. I can afford it, the ergonomics are great (1.1 kg, well balanced for APS-C camera), and the image quality is excellent wide open. Yes, I could pay $10,000.00 more and have a better lens. But I am an amateur, and I have fun with the "toy lens" (bird photographer Art Morris' nickname for this Little White supertele lens).

Yes, certainly.

But the Canon 70-200 f2.8 III cannot at the same time fall in the category of a great lens that hardly needs an update and that of an oldie with a special look, right? ;)

The reality is that it is a very good lens... that would have deserved a real update to stay at the top where it should be.

And I have to confess that I find it hilarious to be called by some a fanboy for stating a fact that Canon users should be the first ones to agree with.  ;D

And I don’t remember not wholeheartedly agreeing with the comments made until a few months ago that Nikon had a problem with being behind Canon in terms of 200-400 f4, although that lens is probably 100 times more niche than the 70-200 f2.8, and although the Nikon former lens was obviously already an amazing performer in absolute terms.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 08, 2018, 10:25:20 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2018, 03:44:24 AM »

Well it seems like the marketing hypesters at Nikon have got you line hook and sinker. They’ll continue to release new versions, make you feel inadequate with your current version...wash, rinse...repeat. Sometimes one just needs to get off the treadmill and enjoy your gear rather than always feeling inadequate.

Sort of like the dumb dog always trying to catch his own tail.

Avoid personal insults. They are unnecessary and unhelpful.

Jeremy
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kers

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2018, 07:34:47 AM »

In the FF lens department Nikon should have made already:

a 50mm f1.4 standard lens that can stand up against Sigma's ( Sigma's lens is about twice the price of the nikon)
a new 24mm PCE lens- being the least of the PCE's and a very important one.
a follow up on the 14-24mm zoom- while still good surpassed by many now.
some very good 12- 18mm wideangles.  the last one is from ...?
a 85mm 1.4 lens with stabilisation.  (Canon and Tamron f1.8 just made one)

coming back to the new 70-200 from canon..
I think good coatings can make a difference... one of the reasons i like Zeiss lenses very much.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 07:38:09 AM by kers »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2018, 08:36:15 AM »

Pieter,

Agreed 100% on the Nikon lenses line up shortcomings.

The 14-24 f2.8 in particular occupies a similar positioning to the Canon 70-200 f2.8 II. Still very good but behind the more recent Canon.

If Nikon releases an update with only better coating we’ll know they also are significantly reducing investment in the F mount the same way Canon is reducing investment in the EOS mount.

At the moment they have not shown anything like that, but it could happen.

The other lenses you mention are more niche products and Canon and Nikon have picked different options that please different shooters. I prefer a 105mm f1.4 with great look than a neutral 85mm f1.4 with stabilisation, but I fully understand others may prefer the Canon option.

Coming back to Canon’s actions. It may make perfect sense for them to reduce investment in the EOS mount. They have proven in the past their ability to take bold decisions mount wise. I am just amused by the reaction displayed by some about the historical significance of this (non) release.

My posts in this thread are not saying “Nikon is better than Canon”, they are saying “the fact that Canon isn’t even trying to better Nikon for their 70-200 means they are past EOS”.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 08:58:23 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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dchew

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2018, 11:53:55 AM »

My posts in this thread are not saying “Nikon is better than Canon”, they are saying “the fact that Canon isn’t even trying to better Nikon for their 70-200 means they are past EOS”.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,
I still think that is too big of a leap. Canon not trying to "better" Nikon on one lens, regardless of how prominent that lens is, does not mean they are "past EOS."

Companies manage a portfolio of products. One input to how individual products are managed is to "better" the competition in one specific aspect (perhaps resolution). But that is not the only one, and is certainly not the final goal. Each product development effort is viewed alone and in the context of other product development opportunities w/ existing practical and financial constraints. Maybe their (perhaps myopic) view is the lens is "good enough", and compared with other product development projects didn't rise to the top of the priority list for a complete redesign. They just completed several new T/S lenses which are EOS and certainly more "niche" than this one.

All it means is they did not deem it important enough to completely overhaul this lens in the context of other development within the EOS line of lenses. You can choose to interpret that as they are "past EOS." Looking at their EOS lens portfolio, the recent development projects completed, and the overall portfolio position, I cannot arrive at that same conclusion.

Dave
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 12:05:19 PM by dchew »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2018, 05:34:28 PM »

Hi David,

Canon is of course not going to throw away EOS, but I believe we have a clear sign that it isn’t their top priority any longer.

Until this release my view is that it would have been just unthinkable for them to release such a landmark lens (my bet many see it as one of the best Canon lenses) without it leapfrogging the equivalent Nikon. And a large majority of Canon hardcore followers have been telling us “Canon makes better lenses”. Only admitting a possible Nikon superiority on a given lens as a temporary thing “that’s because the Nikon is newer, Canon is going to better them at the next iteration”.

“Well, Canon is now focusing on their mirrorless line up” is IMHO the obvious message here for an objective observer. And, again, this is probably the right decision for them.

Nikon released the best film camera ever, the F6, years after Canon stopped investing in film. It shouldn’t come as a major surprise that they continue to invest in DSLR lenses after Canon diverted their efforts towards mirrorless. Canon is probably right and Nikon probably wrong.

One doubt this introduces though is whether Canon can catch up or not. The Nikon version of the 70-200 is the best zoom lens ever released, getting incredibly close to the Otus at f2.8 on the D850, meaning that it is a 100mp ready design. My belief is that Canon could do better still, but by deciding not to, they are putting themselves in a slightly uncomfortable position.

Now they have been serving their customers with second tier sensors for years, it seems that they may consider them as being unable to tell apart very good from great and/or that their long term profitability is more important than making sure their users get the best lens money can buy in front of the best sensor driven by the best AF.

Future will tell but I am 99% sure to be right on this one. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 05:43:53 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2018, 05:41:02 PM »

Or maybe they figured to maximize profits it would be better to simply adjust the lens coating, get a boost in image quality and continue to sell a ton at the $2,000 mark than spend a bunch of R&D, need to raise the price of the lens to say $2,700 and not sell as much, leaving profit on the table.

Sometimes it’s not a race to see who can out do who...but who can financially thrive. Now tell me who between Canon and Nikon are financially thriving?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2018, 05:47:10 PM »

Or maybe they figured to maximize profits it would be better to simply adjust the lens coating, get a boost in image quality and continue to sell a ton at the $2,000 mark than spend a bunch of R&D, need to raise the price of the lens to say $2,700 and not sell as much, leaving profit on the table.

Sometimes it’s not a race to see who can out do who...but who can financially thrive. Now tell me who between Canon and Nikon are financially thriving?

We agree 100% my friend.

Now, the question that is relevant for me as a photographer is “what brand releases the better photographic tools”, but as an investor I would certainly be a lot more interested in their financial KPIs (although a recent Harvard report praised Nikon too).

This is the first time Canon favors finance over performance on the EOS line.

The reading is all over the wall isn’t it?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 09, 2018, 05:52:51 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2018, 09:50:03 PM »

We agree 100% my friend.

Now, the question that is relevant for me as a photographer is “what brand releases the better photographic tools”, but as an investor I would certainly be a lot more interested in their financial KPIs (although a recent Harvard report praised Nikon too).

This is the first time Canon favors finance over performance on the EOS line.

The reading is all over the wall isn’t it?

Cheers,
Bernard

Do you have a shot taken by the Nikon lens which could not have been taken by the Canon lens when printed to say 18x24? After all, that is what counts...not images of test targets pixel peeped at 100%.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2018, 09:56:53 PM »

Do you have a shot taken by the Nikon lens which could not have been taken by the Canon lens when printed to say 18x24? After all, that is what counts...not images of test targets pixel peeped at 100%.

Again, has Canon built it’s fame on good enough?

Cheers,
Bernard

NancyP

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2018, 11:51:51 AM »

Too much is being made of the release of the two 70-200 lenses.
Canon's problem area is the sensor, not the lenses. Canon has been producing specialty lenses recently - the three upgrades of tilt-shift 50, 90, 120 mm; 11-24 mm.
I will worry about a lens' performance on 100MP sensors when I buy a 100MP camera. Now, I have no intention of buying any of these lenses, but if I were to buy a 70-200 f/2.8, possibly the $700.00 difference in price might be a consideration? There's always a trade-off, cost vs units sold, cost vs amount of incremental improvement (and photographers' desire for said incremental improvement). Who buys 70-200 f/2.8 lenses? PJ / action photographers come to mind.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2018, 06:36:52 PM »

Who buys 70-200 f/2.8 lenses? PJ / action photographers come to mind.

Wedding, event,...

This lens belongs to the bag of 100% of the pro photographers I know.

There is a reason why it is the most often updated pro lens in the line ups of both Canon and Nikon.

Nikon is at the 7th iteration of this lens since AF started (https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/80-200mm-history.htm), spanning over 30 years, which is nearly one update every 4 years.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2018, 04:41:54 AM »

Wedding, event,...

This lens belongs to the bag of 100% of the pro photographers I know.

There is a reason why it is the most often updated pro lens in the line ups of both Canon and Nikon.

Nikon is at the 7th iteration of this lens since AF started (https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/80-200mm-history.htm), spanning over 30 years, which is nearly one update every 4 years.

Cheers,
Bernard

Canon is a bit more conservative/paused regarding lens upgrades. The MKII is from 2010, as I mentioned earlier. I think that they chose not to "best" the latest Nikon release simply because of market price concerns: perhaps to "best" Nikon's latest and greatest, the lens would come out at nearly EUR 3,000 (similar to latest Sony FE 70-200 GM); the latter is supposed to cater for 100 mp sensors (as all GM lenses do).

The truth is, over the last c. 40 years, the 2 companies have tracked each other, sometimes one is up in a particular product, sometimes not. Nikon had to release a really good 70-200 f2.8 lens because Canon's release from 2017 was the one to beat.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2018, 05:27:41 PM »

Canon is a bit more conservative/paused regarding lens upgrades. The MKII is from 2010, as I mentioned earlier. I think that they chose not to "best" the latest Nikon release simply because of market price concerns: perhaps to "best" Nikon's latest and greatest, the lens would come out at nearly EUR 3,000 (similar to latest Sony FE 70-200 GM); the latter is supposed to cater for 100 mp sensors (as all GM lenses do).

The truth is, over the last c. 40 years, the 2 companies have tracked each other, sometimes one is up in a particular product, sometimes not. Nikon had to release a really good 70-200 f2.8 lens because Canon's release from 2017 was the one to beat.

Indeed. Doesn’t all that make the lack of progress of the III after 8 years all the more telling?

Cheers,
Bernard

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2018, 07:32:10 PM »

Bernard, you keep posting about the new lenses not being better than Nikon’s... how do you know? Were they tested already?

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2018, 08:10:20 PM »

Bernard, you keep posting about the new lenses not being better than Nikon’s... how do you know? Were they tested already?

No, they were not tested, but Canon is telling us that they didn't change a thing beside coating... and the II was clearly behind.

Considering the usual abilities of Canon to boast about the strengths of their equipment, do you seriously expect them not to tell us that they have improved the optical quality of the lens although they secretly did?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 09:00:27 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #36 on: June 12, 2018, 09:50:20 PM »

... the II clearly behind...

Show me.

(Asking kindly, in a friendly manner)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #37 on: June 12, 2018, 10:34:45 PM »

Show me.

(Asking kindly, in a friendly manner)

Hi Slobodan,

I remember several articles clearly mentioning the superiority of the E FL lens. I believe one was at DPreview.

I am sure you'll be able to find them if you are interested in these.

Cheers,
Bernard

Kirk_C

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2018, 11:44:16 PM »

Isn't which lens is best really relative to what you shoot ?

I shoot people with the original Canon 70-200 2.8 and I've never had a client comment that their images weren't sharp. It's perfect for the standard model head shot, full length or anywhere in between when the model (not what they're wearing) is the subject. As a reference when testing the newer version (the II) Roger Cicala at lensrentals commented that the original was a lens that would never disappoint anyone.

I'll buy the Sony FE 70-200 GM soon to pair with the A7RIII in the studio with one of my Broncolor Paras / Mola Seti /Mola Rayo on a 19 year old with flawless skin who's make up artist is standing just outside the shot ready to correct the most minor flaw in her makeup. We'll be selling the clothes, jewelry etc.

Nikon's got a great lens I'm sure but it has to be right for what you are shooting and it's exceptional test numbers simply do not mean it's the best for everyone or every thing.

Canon's update to the new coatings is in my opinion a reasonable update that has nothing to do with the EOS mount being dated or other developments being ignored or deemed unneeded. It' an incremental update that will be right for someone.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:51:19 PM by Kirk_C »
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Jim Pascoe

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Re: New Canon 70-200 lenses announced
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2018, 07:28:56 AM »

I owned the 70-200mm Canon for many years and it was great - for people photography.  Some years ago we bought the Mk11 and it was a great improvement - a fantastic lens (though my wife uses it more than me as I prefer lighter lenses).  I cannot even be bothered to try the new Mk111 version.  Why would I - the Mk11 is fine for my work as a full-time professional photographer.  If I needed a new one - fine, I would buy the latest and I'm sure it would be great too.

I really have no interest as a professional in what Nikon or Sony are doing - unless they were offering something that would make me change the way I work.

If I was starting from scratch it might be different, but the way things are I could carry on with professional photography using my equipment for many years yet without a need to upgrade anything.  Newest and latest gear is a luxury for most professional photographers.

Jim
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