Classic Left-Wing Logic

[Farmer]

Seriously?

Come on.  More information, yes.  More data, yes.  More knowledge, debatable, I side with Slobo, by a hair. 

More Wisdom, give me a break!  There is neither more nor less wisdom today, since wisdom has nothing to do with advances in information and knowledge.  Wisdom is gained on a personal level from experience and the ability of a person to learn from their mistakes, which has nothing to do with schooling.

DIKW is a hierarchical model for data management and extraction.  It's nothing to do with personal wisdom in a classic sense.  It can, and is, taught as a very effective model.

[BernardLanguillier]

That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?

Euh... no. What matters is the amount of waste, the amount of water added to the main flow is negligible.

So the commonly accepted logic that using less water is better is totally correct.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Rob C]

Interesting topic; the recent walks past the local sewage plant had become an idea for another kind of grimmer landscape quest. Sadly, smell aside, there is no way I can get anything very clearly throught the hedges, and where they end runs a high wall that it would always have been beyond my atheltic skills to scale, not that I might have wanted to do that, of course.

So, I cannot confirm or, equally, deny that there also exists an open pond of floating turkish delights. I have gone as far as a consultation of Google Maps, but they don't have the definition to help me in the least. If the Iran/NK preemptive data is all based on that quality, then we could all melt for nothing, which would be yet another shameful waste of resources - even if not of particularly scarce ones.

[jeremyrh]

Interesting topic; the recent walks past the local sewage plant had become an idea for another kind of grimmer landscape quest. Sadly, smell aside, there is no way I can get anything very clearly throught the hedges, and where they end runs a high wall that it would always have been beyond my atheltic skills to scale, not that I might have wanted to do that, of course.

So, I cannot confirm or, equally, deny that there also exists an open pond of floating turkish delights. I have gone as far as a consultation of Google Maps, but they don't have the definition to help me in the least. If the Iran/NK preemptive data is all based on that quality, then we could all melt for nothing, which would be yet another shameful waste of resources - even if not of particularly scarce ones.

Sorry to let photography intrude but ... Hans Strand has been making some wonderful aerial photos of Man's impact on the Spanish countryside - perhaps he could be prevailed upon to help with your research?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

In the meantime, somewhere in America:

[RSL]

Must be a low-flush toilet.

[Rob C]

Full flush?

[Robert Roaldi]

Tribal behaviour is so interesting. A more efficient toilet sounds a little too "greenie", too (dare I say it) "leftie", so the predictable people come out against. Isn't it a good thing to accomplish the same function using less resources? Isn't that what corporations try to do all the time to benefit their bottom line?

Is there a problem with flushing the same amount of turd using less water? Is it un-american or something?

At one point, the thread even veered off into the well-traveled "we're going to hell in a hand cart" meme. I'm a couple of months away from being 65, and this horse shit is as stupid today as it was 50 years ago. My own view is that this view of the world is just old geezer arrogance. Since we're about to bow out, and others will take over, then things will certainly get worse because, well, we're no longer in charge. It was bs 50 ago, and it's bs now. Change the record.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Nice little tirade against geezers, Robert. But being a geezer yourslef, your geezer arrogance prevented you from seeing the point in the OP: that the attempt to save ends up in using the same or more. The veracity of that premise hinges on the ratio of #1 to #2. If the ratio is more than 3:1, then all hail the leftie loo.

[Robert Roaldi]

Nice little tirade against geezers, Robert. But being a geezer yourslef, your geezer arrogance prevented you from seeing the point in the OP: that the attempt to save ends up in using the same or more. The veracity of that premise hinges on the ratio of #1 to #2. If the ratio is more than 3:1, then all hail the leftie loo.

Except it isn't true. We've had low-flow toilets for years. Everyone I know does. They work fine.

[Alan Klein]

Except it isn't true. We've had low-flow toilets for years. Everyone I know does. They work fine.

Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.

[Rob C]

Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.

A lot depends on diet.

[RSL]

Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.

But Alan, think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times. You save water every time you flush a low-flush toilet. Our politicians made sure of that.

[Rob C]

But Alan, think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times. You save water every time you flush a low-flush toilet. Our politicians made sure of that.

Especially if to resolve the same motion...

[LesPalenik]

Our local politicians decided wisely that they can save money by using one curbside recycling truck to collect mixed glass, plastic, aluminum cans and paper. Newsprint and other high-quality paper which make up two thirds of the truck load are mixed up with glass shards and plastic and then require multi-stage sorting to separate it from other waste. So any savings from the sorting at source and transportation are negated by the more expensive sorting costs down the line and reduced usability of the various materials.     

Washington state published some numbers from their recycling program. For example, in Spokane the trucks have seven different compartments for various waste materials. Their collection costs are higher than for mixed trucks, but they are able to sell the recycling materials to local processors for $24 a ton, whereas Vancouver which does the separation at the plant, received only $5 per ton, and Bellingham pays its processor $25 per ton to accept the recyclables.

[Robert Roaldi]

... think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times...

I accept the fact that you believe this, but repeating it does not make it true. Anecdotes are fine and sometimes funny, but that is all they are. I suggest that you buy a better model of toilet.

Your experience does NOT conform to mine nor to the experience of anyone I know, and we've had low-flow toilets in these parts for a couple of decades now.

The knee-jerk reaction against anything that smacks of "environmentalism" is silly and tribal. All of us benefit from various pieces of environmental legislation every day, even if you are politically against admitting it. Try this experiment, go to a cruise night at your local mall and stand at the exit of the parking lot when the 1950s-1960s muscle cars go home at the end of the evening. Breathe deep.

Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?

[Rob C]

I accept the fact that you believe this, but repeating it does not make it true. Anecdotes are fine and sometimes funny, but that is all they are. I suggest that you buy a better model of toilet.

Your experience does NOT conform to mine nor to the experience of anyone I know, and we've had low-flow toilets in these parts for a couple of decades now.

The knee-jerk reaction against anything that smacks of "environmentalism" is silly and tribal. All of us benefit from various pieces of environmental legislation every day, even if you are politically against admitting it. Try this experiment, go to a cruise night at your local mall and stand at the exit of the parking lot when the 1950s-1960s muscle cars go home at the end of the evening. Breathe deep.

Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?

For me, it would be worth it!

Funny thing: my current Fiesta is the only diesel I ever bought. Seven or so years later I'm still under 27,500 kilometres with it! I have never got used to the difference in where the power comes in, and though it can see the pants off bigger petrol cars once up in the 100+ kph, getting up to 60 or so is a real pain.

I don't like diesel; would never have bought it had I had more experience of them in the generally equal displacement brackets where a comparison with petrol was worthwhile.

But cars should be more than just A to B things; they are also to be enjoyed. On many levels of ownership.

[RSL]

Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?

Talk about "fouled plugs!" Try flushing your great water saver toilet just once after a heavy sitdown.

[Ray]

Look! The solution is quite simple. If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down. 

[Rob C]

Look! The solution is quite simple. If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down. 

You won't say that if you develop prostate problems.

;-)