Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: RSL on May 17, 2018, 09:33:06 AM

Title: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 17, 2018, 09:33:06 AM
Every time you flush one of our new government-dictated low-flush toilets you save water. When you flush it three times to clear it, just THINK of all the water you're saving.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: LesPalenik on May 17, 2018, 09:55:19 AM
With Amazon, you'll save even more.

https://www.amazon.ca/BQLZR-Portable-Urinal-Bottle-Collector/dp/B01CI0GM38

And you can use the content of the bottle as a lawn or garden fertilizer. Recent scientific studies have shown urine is a safe and very effective fertilizer for cabbage, beets, cucumbers, and tomatoes, and pretty much anything else you want to grow. Urine boasts a nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium (N-P-K) ratio of 10:1:4, plus more modest amounts of the trace elements plants need to thrive.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 17, 2018, 09:57:38 AM
Great stuff, Les. And from what my nose told me, in the early fifties the Koreans understood all that.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Chairman Bill on May 17, 2018, 11:19:34 AM
Hilarious. Not sure how it's left-wing logic. I'm guessing that anything Russ doesn't like/agree with is left-wing.

BTW, we've had these for years here in Europe. They have two settings; one fully empties the water cistern & is perfect for clearing away solid waste, the other uses less water & is ideal for clearing urine. But that's us socialist lizard-alien commie nazis in Eurostan, so just ignore us.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: KLaban on May 17, 2018, 12:01:34 PM
Hey, Russ needs a huge flush 'cause he's so full of it.

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 17, 2018, 03:57:23 PM
Australia invented dual flush systems - one with a low for number 1, and with a normal for number 2.  They're legally required here - you can't install a single flush system.

Of course, the generaly design and mechanism of non-US toilets is also a little different (and I think better, overall), but you don't have to flush multiple times - you just choose the appropriate level and conserve water in the process.

http://archive.maas.museum/australia_innovates/index4dd3.html?behaviour=view_article&Section_id=1040&article_id=10044

32,000l of water a year per average household saved and thanks to an immigrant and some government assistance - don't tell Trump.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 17, 2018, 04:54:01 PM
That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 04:54:13 PM
One of my loos has a dual system and the other loo is of the old, traditional and reliable type. It works perfectly.

The two-choice mother wastes a lot of water. I have been driven to a nervous state now where, every time I flush the thing, one half of the switch or the other, I end up having to wait until everything goes silent just to confirm the device has not jammed, as was it's wont, and which, undetected, ran through hours of wasted water in a land where water is both expensive and scarce.

Like I say, things often improve without getting any the better.

Rob
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 17, 2018, 05:06:25 PM
When the Comcast Center in Philly was going up, the original idea was to install waterless urinals, saving on both water and raw materials in the plumbing.  Then the pipe fitters union protested.

So it was built with waterless urinals, and all the plumbing as if it was not waterless.  So more then a million dollars of plumbing was installed that sits ideal and is never actually used. 

That's waste for you. 
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Two23 on May 17, 2018, 05:06:40 PM
My favorite:

https://www.ebay.com/i/332499095699?chn=ps

Wonder if you have to give it a shake when you're done?


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 05:08:08 PM
That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?


No, our turds go to a sewage farm (or plant, if you prefer) where they get distilled and often give off amazing, breathtaking gasses that get right into your car as you drive past. I think that from there they go into the environment at a standard level of concentration or alteration, shall we say. That poor old sea... you'd think it suffered enough from the flushing yachts!

As expected, the offensive escapes of gas were always worse in the tourist summer season; however, the recent rise in mass cycle-freak winter holidays has given rise to a more perennial state off lung destruction. Must be the exercise and steroids.

I sometimes wonder if that means that one is just inhaling gas, or that the gasses also bear germs that can kill one seriously dead. I don't expect that asking the local council will provide an honest answer; it would probably deny the happenings are possible, that no perfumes of Arabia ever escape, ever.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 17, 2018, 05:09:07 PM
...That's waste for you. 

Well, not for the union and the plumbing manufacturers  ;)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 05:10:21 PM
When the Comcast Center in Philly was going up, the original idea was to install waterless urinals, saving on both water and raw materials in the plumbing.  Then the pipe fitters union protested.

So it was built with waterless urinals, and all the plumbing as if it was not waterless.  So more then a million dollars of plumbing was installed that sits ideal and is never actually used. 

That's waste for you.


Enjoyed the pun!

How does a dry urinal work? Are they exclusive to art galleries?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 05:11:25 PM
Well, not for the union and the plumbing manufacturers  ;)


I bet the Sopranos had a hand in it!
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 17, 2018, 05:21:43 PM
The question, Rob, is whether every sewage system in the world goes through those “water reclamation” facilities (a nice euphemism in itself). I doubt.

Actually, the process does not create the smell on a permanent, daily basis. I was once on a tour of such a facility in our neighborhood, passing within a yard from the open pools (Olympic size) where the process takes place. No smell whatsoever. Once the dry matter is extracted, it is stored in huge warehouses. Once a week, they open the door of those warehouses for trucks to pick it up and deliver for agricultural use (fertilizers). That’s (open door) when you can smell it, if the wind direction works against you.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 17, 2018, 05:35:19 PM
The question, Rob, is whether every sewage system in the world goes through those “water reclamation” facilities (a nice euphemism in itself). I doubt.

Actually, the process does not create the smell on a permanent, daily basis. I was once on a tour of such a facility in our neighborhood, passing within a yard from the open pools (Olympic size) where the process takes place. No smell whatsoever. Once the dry matter is extracted, it is stored in huge warehouses. Once a week, they open the door of those warehouses for trucks to pick it up and deliver for agricultural use (fertilizers). That’s (open door) when you can smell it, if the wind direction works against you.


I don't see any open pool in this one on the road to Puerto Polensa but it stinks several times a week at least! As I pass it every day, I'm an authority!

There is/was? a massive one, complete with the pools, in Paisley, en route to the airport (called Glasgow Airport, oddly enough); can't recall passing it at unfortunate moments, though. I wonder if the Paisley Buddies feel offended not to have their airport bear their name? Just another instance of a superior economic muscle, I guess.

Now there's an assignment: I must sneak pictures of this local system as if it were an Iranian secret, undeclared location! Perhaps if I'm lucky I will survive to post a snap.

(This damned iPad insists on creating words I have not written; just had to edit this brief post again.)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Two23 on May 17, 2018, 11:28:51 PM


I sometimes wonder if that means that one is just inhaling gas, or that the gasses also bear germs that can kill one seriously dead. I don't expect that asking the local council will provide an honest answer; it would probably deny the happenings are possible, that no perfumes of Arabia ever escape, ever.


Gasses do not carry pathogens (bacteria in this case.)  Many are anaerobic, meaning they are killed by oxygen.  The fumes themselves are another matter.  Out here in the Midwest there are astonishingly huge concentrations of livestock--principally cattle, pigs, and chickens.  They generate a LOT of poo.  You can't simply pack it into a spreader and go take it out over the fields--it stinks too badly.  What they do is put it all in a man made pit and try to get it to "digest" itself.  The solids are then put into a liquid manure spreader which is essentially a big tank on wheels with little plows on back, and the liquid manure is injected directly into the ground.  Back to the pits.  The concentration of ammonia and H2SO4 is very intense, and extremely hazardous.  It kills farm workers almost every year.  Here's a story:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/07/28/iowa-father-son-die-manure-pit-fumes/30811157/


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Redcrown on May 18, 2018, 12:10:27 AM
A few years ago, when California was having their bad drought, I flew through LAX airport. Went to the toilet with carry-on bag and a big winter coat. The toilets were all auto flushers. Some sort of motion detector.

Toilet flushed as soon as I entered. Flushed again as I stowed my bag and took off my coat. Flushed again when I sat down. Flushed again when I got up. Flushed two more times as I put on my coat and hoisted my bag. I stood outside the stall for a minute and listened to constant flushing from the row of 10 stalls. But I'm sure they were all water saving toilets. It's a left wing state.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 18, 2018, 12:26:38 AM
One of my loos has a dual system and the other loo is of the old, traditional and reliable type. It works perfectly.

The two-choice mother wastes a lot of water. I have been driven to a nervous state now where, every time I flush the thing, one half of the switch or the other, I end up having to wait until everything goes silent just to confirm the device has not jammed, as was it's wont, and which, undetected, ran through hours of wasted water in a land where water is both expensive and scarce.

Like a I say, things often improve without getting any the better.

Rob

This is a classic of why data is not the plural anecdote.  You have 2 units, one works and one doesn't.  That the one that doesn't work very well is dual flush is not proof that dual flush systems are less reliable.

As I said, they've been mandatory here for decades.  No problems.  Get a reliable unit :-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 18, 2018, 12:30:08 AM
What a shitty thread😉
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: LesPalenik on May 18, 2018, 12:44:21 AM
A few years ago, when California was having their bad drought, I flew through LAX airport. Went to the toilet with carry-on bag and a big winter coat. The toilets were all auto flushers. Some sort of motion detector.

Toilet flushed as soon as I entered. Flushed again as I stowed my bag and took off my coat. Flushed again when I sat down. Flushed again when I got up. Flushed two more times as I put on my coat and hoisted my bag. I stood outside the stall for a minute and listened to constant flushing from the row of 10 stalls. But I'm sure they were all water saving toilets. It's a left wing state.

I suspect that they used very small motion sensors. What they need is a full frame or larger sensor which will reduce the noise and can operate reliably at longer exposures.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2018, 04:48:33 AM
Aha, so dry systems are not dry; they are simply automatically switched on and off.

Smacks of the ambitious advertising that turns buyers of brand X cameras into stunning photographers.

As Slobodan suggested, a shitty deal or, at least, a case of being pissed off by false claims; dry urinals indeed - reeks of falsehoods!

Rob
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2018, 08:38:52 AM
This is a classic of why data is not the plural anecdote.  You have 2 units, one works and one doesn't.  That the one that doesn't work very well is dual flush is not proof that dual flush systems are less reliable.

As I said, they've been mandatory here for decades.  No problems.  Get a reliable unit :-)


One man's logic...

If you want a broader base, then, let's look at it this way: of the many blondes I have known and worked with, not one would have crossed my mind as wife material. Whether born of deep mistrust of a personality that chooses to walk around as a fake (I know no women who have genuinely retained their baby blonde locks, though I am willing to extend trust to Scandinavia and possibly even Germany) or simply because I see their principal value as backighting material, period, the only girl I would have married was the one I did: a brunette.

Maybe I only met exceptions in both camps.

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: KLaban on May 18, 2018, 09:41:35 AM

One man's logic...

If you want a broader base, then, let's look at it this way: of the many blondes I have known and worked with, not one would have crossed my mind as wife material. Whether born of deep mistrust of a personality that chooses to walk around as a fake (I know no women who have genuinely retained their baby blonde locks, though I am willing to extend trust to Scandinavia and possibly even Germany) or simply because I see their principal value as backighting material, period, the only girl I would have married was the one I did: a brunette.

Maybe I only met exceptions in both camps.

;-)

Rob, don't forget your brunette married a cool guy with luxuriant hair.

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 18, 2018, 09:43:31 AM

Maybe I only met exceptions in both camps.

;-)

I don't think so, Rob. I pretty much had the same experience.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on May 18, 2018, 10:01:59 AM
Hilarious. Not sure how it's left-wing logic. I'm guessing that anything Russ doesn't like/agree with is left-wing.

BTW, we've had these for years here in Europe. They have two settings; one fully empties the water cistern & is perfect for clearing away solid waste, the other uses less water & is ideal for clearing urine. But that's us socialist lizard-alien commie nazis in Eurostan, so just ignore us.

Indeed, even in lowly Portugal we have these for years. And those who are really left-wing-inclined can just open an old model and insert a bottle to reduce the necessary BS-cleaning-wiping flushing amount.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on May 18, 2018, 10:04:36 AM
That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?

Even in Portugal, we have sewage and water treatment stations that clean and treat the stuff before entering the Ocean.

In Oman, irrigation water comes from treated sewer, smells bad, it is non-potable, but does the job.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on May 18, 2018, 10:05:46 AM
One of my loos has a dual system and the other loo is of the old, traditional and reliable type. It works perfectly.

The two-choice mother wastes a lot of water. I have been driven to a nervous state now where, every time I flush the thing, one half of the switch or the other, I end up having to wait until everything goes silent just to confirm the device has not jammed, as was it's wont, and which, undetected, ran through hours of wasted water in a land where water is both expensive and scarce.

Like I say, things often improve without getting any the better.

Rob

Perhaps you need to learn how to use a "piacaba" - toilet brush to push the BS down the thing?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on May 18, 2018, 10:07:11 AM

Enjoyed the pun!

How does a dry urinal work? Are they exclusive to art galleries?

no, in shopping centers in Portugal we have them too.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Robert Roaldi on May 18, 2018, 11:19:44 AM
That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?

I'm no expert, but one issue is that we use the same clean fresh water to flush turd as we use for cooking and cleaning, and it is a dwindling resource in many places so using less of it to do the same job makes sense. We've had dual-flush toilets in Canada too for a while. I used to hear people complain about how civilization would collapse because of the transition, in much the same way that our culture nose-dived when we moved to re-usable cloth grocery bags or when we started separating compostable garbage from paper and plastic. Incredibly, we survived.

Funny because I would have thought that old geezers who used to walk 10 miles to school each way (and it was uphill both ways) would not be so scared of making do with less of what we don't actually need. I guess the operating principle is that if some "greenie" thought it up then it must be bad.

Four legs good, two legs better.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2018, 11:43:38 AM
Indeed, even in lowly Portugal we have these for years. And those who are really left-wing-inclined can just open an old model and insert a bottle to reduce the necessary BS-cleaning-wiping flushing amount.


Makes me think of poor old Fatty Arbuckle. My Ms Coke wouldn't stand for it. At all.

Bet he wished he's been more conservative.

;-(
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2018, 11:50:11 AM
Rob, don't forget your brunette married a cool guy with luxuriant hair.

;-)

It still is, in my dreams. Not that I dream about it much, but if I did, than it would be.

When I wake up in the morning, after checking everything's still there, I swing up (slowly and carefully) to a sitting position and greet the stranger in the mirror with a smile before pulling the strands of rat's tail back together again and anchoring them with a band. It's quite a ritual now; I'd miss the old bugger if he wasn't there one morning.

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: PeterAit on May 18, 2018, 03:28:26 PM
One of my loos has a dual system and the other loo is of the old, traditional and reliable type. It works perfectly.

The two-choice mother wastes a lot of water. I have been driven to a nervous state now where, every time I flush the thing, one half of the switch or the other, I end up having to wait until everything goes silent just to confirm the device has not jammed, as was it's wont, and which, undetected, ran through hours of wasted water in a land where water is both expensive and scarce.

Rob

Well sheesh Rob, fix it!
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: PeterAit on May 18, 2018, 03:37:39 PM
When the Comcast Center in Philly was going up, the original idea was to install waterless urinals, saving on both water and raw materials in the plumbing.  Then the pipe fitters union protested.

So it was built with waterless urinals, and all the plumbing as if it was not waterless.  So more then a million dollars of plumbing was installed that sits ideal and is never actually used. 

That's waste for you.

Utter nonsense. Waterless urinals require a drain line, they just do not need to be flushed.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 18, 2018, 03:47:06 PM
Well sheesh Rob, fix it!

What's to fix? It's how it works. Sometimes, if you keep your finger on the economy part of the switch bit it gives a short flush and stops; other times, it just runs and runs until you take your finger off. The full-flush-of-youth part of the switch gives a mighty flush of excitement, and usually does its job well. Other times, unless you check when the noise stops, it has risen up to the proper position, appearing to have done its cycle in full, but it's just fooling you. The cure is to hit it hard again, at which point the thing sinks back in, then rights itself.

I suppose that's the fix.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 18, 2018, 10:39:32 PM
Get a better quality one that isn't, well, shit.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: jeremyrh on May 19, 2018, 03:29:06 AM
It still is, in my dreams. Not that I dream about it much, but if I did, than it would be.

When I wake up in the morning, after checking everything's still there, I swing up (slowly and carefully) to a sitting position and greet the stranger in the mirror with a smile before pulling the strands of rat's tail back together again and anchoring them with a band. It's quite a ritual now; I'd miss the old bugger if he wasn't there one morning.

;-)

I'm lost - are we still talking about hair ?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: jeremyrh on May 19, 2018, 03:31:53 AM
Every time you flush one of our new government-dictated low-flush toilets you save water. When you flush it three times to clear it, just THINK of all the water you're saving.

It takes a special kind of numskull to see a Communist plot behind a simple choice of plumbing. Tinfoil, Russ, that's what you need!
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 19, 2018, 04:33:15 AM
I'm lost - are we still talking about hair ?

In the mane main. (As in Sally Mann: What remains. A time exposure, as it were.)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: PeterAit on May 19, 2018, 12:35:57 PM
A few years ago, when California was having their bad drought, I flew through LAX airport. Went to the toilet with carry-on bag and a big winter coat. The toilets were all auto flushers. Some sort of motion detector.

Toilet flushed as soon as I entered. Flushed again as I stowed my bag and took off my coat. Flushed again when I sat down. Flushed again when I got up. Flushed two more times as I put on my coat and hoisted my bag. I stood outside the stall for a minute and listened to constant flushing from the row of 10 stalls. But I'm sure they were all water saving toilets. It's a left wing state.

WTF do auto-flush toilets have to do with a left wing state?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: jeremyrh on May 19, 2018, 12:49:17 PM
WTF do auto-flush toilets have to do with a left wing state?

Don't even ask, Peter - the answer would just make you despair.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 19, 2018, 03:55:10 PM
WTF do auto-flush toilets have to do with a left wing state?

How about everything? Have you ever seen right-wing tree huggers, global warming alarmists or I-would-rather-see-human-race-extinct-than-environment-harmed nuts?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 19, 2018, 03:58:39 PM
How about everything? Have you ever seen right-wing tree huggers, global warming alarmists or I-would-rather-see-human-race-extinct-than-environment-harmed nuts?

Well, you could say the state is perfectly happy to flush you down the pan when you are no more use to it... That probably applies to all wings of state, though, left and right.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 19, 2018, 04:03:52 PM
Seems that way more and more nowadays, Rob, but there was a time when people rose up and refused to be flushed down the pan by the state. It was called the American Revolution.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Robert Roaldi on May 19, 2018, 05:30:05 PM
And maybe even the Cuban revolution?  :)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 19, 2018, 07:59:39 PM
Seems that way more and more nowadays, Rob, but there was a time when people rose up and refused to be flushed down the pan by the state. It was called the American Revolution.

I'm sure you remember it well, Russ ;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 19, 2018, 08:04:02 PM
Actually, Phil, I learned about it in school, back in the days when they were teaching instead of indoctrinating.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Alan Klein on May 19, 2018, 11:02:22 PM
I've used and noticed that waterless urinals stink, are dirty, and not cared for properly.  Personally, I'd rather use one that uses water. 

This reminds when there was a water crisis in NYC a few decades ago.  The restaurants stopped serving water.  You had to ask for it like a desert traveler crawling  into an oasis with your tongue hanging out and dragging in the sand. I think they save about 1/10 of 1% of water a day.  I guess the politicians were trying to make a point.  They went ahead and instituted limited shower heads so you can;t get a real blast from your shower, one of the great joys of living,  unless you clandestinely remove the flow restrictor in the head, which I did when I lived there.  Every time I took a shower, I used to fear that the water Nazis would break into my bathroom while I was sudsing up, arrest me and drag me away naked. 
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: LesPalenik on May 19, 2018, 11:19:34 PM
I'd hate to see that.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Alan Klein on May 19, 2018, 11:32:04 PM
Yeah.  It wouldn't be pretty.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 20, 2018, 12:49:29 AM
Actually, Phil, I learned about it in school, back in the days when they were teaching instead of indoctrinating.

I have 7 nieces and nephews, aged 14 to 23, so their school experience is very recent or current.  They're being taught a lot, including how to learn and how to research (real research, from proper sources).  Those at university, of course, have an even more developed skill in research and learning and they're working as well and gaining life experience - also through travel.

What they're being taught about learning and research is far, far better than I received.  They will finish school with more knowledge and more understanding and more ability to learn than I did, as I had more than my parent, and so on.

That's not to say that various teachers don't have views on things that they take on board at various times, for better or worse, but it's far from being indoctrination.  It's merely different to your experience, not wrong.

My 18 year old niece, who is taking a gap year and travelling and working, and who is a talented artist (but will be pursuing environmental studies as she is far more interested in that) and has a wonderful eye for photography, was telling me last night at her grandfather's 80th birthday dinner, that there's no art in photography.  It's all mathematics.  Push the button.  She felt that art doesn't need maths.  I asked about Escher.  She pondered and we drank more wine and the discussion broadened with my wife and a nephew (16) and another nephew's girlfriend (22) about discussion versus argument and the value of honest and robust discourse.

She thinks about things.  She knows how to learn.  She's not an exception in that regard.  Don't be like the apocryphal Charles Holland Duell, but rather like the real one, "In my opinion, all previous advances in the various lines of invention will appear totally insignificant when compared with those which the present century will witness. I almost wish that I might live my life over again to see the wonders which are at the threshold."

I think you think that your glass is half empty because the younger generations drank the other half of your drink.  I think mine's half full because they've topped it up for me.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: LesPalenik on May 20, 2018, 04:27:22 AM
Taking the OP to the extreme,

Quote
An Australian sexuality educator has created quite a stink over her suggestion for teaching babies the concept of consent, by asking them for permission before changing their diapers. Deanne Carson, a sexuality educator with Body Safety Australia, which offers programs on empowering children and protecting them from child abuse, was interviewed on national public broadcaster ABC News earlier this week. During the segment, she explained that she works with newborns’ parents to help them create a “culture of consent” early in life.

Carson used the example of changing a baby’s diaper or “nappy” to illustrate her point. “‘I’m going to change your nappy now. Is that okay?’” she said as an example of how to pose the question. The educator’s remarks set off a firestorm of debate online with many on social media mocking her ideas and criticizing her credentials. Sky News Australia commentator Rowan Dean labelled Carson’s position as “left lunacy.”

one of the comments:
She is fairly stupid though. Because the nappy has to be changed no matter how the baby reacts, so if they react negatively, the message they’ll receive is that their consent is irrelevant. By this woman’s own logic, that is - which is bad logic.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/should-parents-seek-baby-s-permission-before-changing-a-diaper-1.3925242
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 20, 2018, 06:33:30 AM
Taking the OP to the extreme,

one of the comments:
She is fairly stupid though. Because the nappy has to be changed no matter how the baby reacts, so if they react negatively, the message they’ll receive is that their consent is irrelevant. By this woman’s own logic, that is - which is bad logic.


https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/should-parents-seek-baby-s-permission-before-changing-a-diaper-1.3925242


It's like a rapist getting away with it because he claims to have asked permission first, which might well even have been true.

Silly old world these days!
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 20, 2018, 07:13:59 AM
I have 7 nieces and nephews, aged 14 to 23, so their school experience is very recent or current.  They're being taught a lot, including how to learn and how to research (real research, from proper sources).  Those at university, of course, have an even more developed skill in research and learning and they're working as well and gaining life experience - also through travel.

What they're being taught about learning and research is far, far better than I received.  They will finish school with more knowledge and more understanding and more ability to learn than I did, as I had more than my parent, and so on.

That's not to say that various teachers don't have views on things that they take on board at various times, for better or worse, but it's far from being indoctrination.  It's merely different to your experience, not wrong.

My 18 year old niece, who is taking a gap year and travelling and working, and who is a talented artist (but will be pursuing environmental studies as she is far more interested in that) and has a wonderful eye for photography, was telling me last night at her grandfather's 80th birthday dinner, that there's no art in photography.  It's all mathematics.  Push the button.  She felt that art doesn't need maths.  I asked about Escher.  She pondered and we drank more wine and the discussion broadened with my wife and a nephew (16) and another nephew's girlfriend (22) about discussion versus argument and the value of honest and robust discourse.

She thinks about things.  She knows how to learn.  She's not an exception in that regard.  Don't be like the apocryphal Charles Holland Duell, but rather like the real one, "In my opinion, all previous advances in the various lines of invention will appear totally insignificant when compared with those which the present century will witness. I almost wish that I might live my life over again to see the wonders which are at the threshold."

I think you think that your glass is half empty because the younger generations drank the other half of your drink.  I think mine's half full because they've topped it up for me.

Not exactly, Phil. I have seventeen grandkids, all of whom are now grown up. They're all doing well, so my glass is full to overflowing. I also have fifteen great-grands with two more on the way. I've watched what passes for "education" for a long time now. Most young people don't know the difference between the verbs "to lie" and "to lay." Now that's a small and reasonably insignificant thing, but it illustrates the breakdown in our government-run education system. Nowadays most teachers don't know the difference either. I could go on and on, but the reason my grands are doing well isn't the school system. It's the attention their parents gave them.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 20, 2018, 08:12:49 AM
Not exactly, Phil. I have seventeen grandkids, all of whom are now grown up. They're all doing well, so my glass is full to overflowing. I also have fifteen great-grands with two more on the way. I've watched what passes for "education" for a long time now. Most young people don't know the difference between the verbs "to lie" and "to lay." Now that's a small and reasonably insignificant thing, but it illustrates the breakdown in our government-run education system. Nowadays most teachers don't know the difference either. I could go on and on, but the reason my grands are doing well isn't the school system. It's the attention their parents gave them.

You could toss in the difference between there and their, and the even more strange confusion between there and than.

I see it too often for it to be a case of the Rob C dyslexic fingers syndrome.

Let's not even touch on the begging of questions!

:-)

Rob

P.S.

To amplify a little: it isn't even all about teachers or domestic environment. I grew up in a multi-lingual family and, until the age of starting school, I spoke English and Italian with equal ease. Once school took me, Italian was neglected and is now almost as passive as the French I studied in various school. But, most importantly, home was a place where there were books on art and reading was encouraged, of anything, appropriate for a kid or not. My mother was the one who took me to art galleries in London, and from whom I caught the bug. But, it wasn't a formal sort of domestic education; the choices were simply available and it was really up to me to take advantage of them or not.

My two granddaughters were, as children, avid readers, even when out here in Mallorca on holiday. That certainly helped them slip comfortably into the study modes required to become, respectively, lawyers and doctors. I could never have applied my mind in that way.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 20, 2018, 08:28:41 AM

Let's not even touch on the begging of questions!

:-)

Rob

I touch on it probably more often than I should, Rob (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/recessional.html), and it's a hair- tearer. But then, I'm a curmudgeon. I love the beauty of the English language, ignorance of which among its speakers seems to be growing exponentially.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 20, 2018, 08:32:27 AM
I touch on it probably more often than I should, Rob (http://www.russ-lewis.com/essays/recessional.html), and it's a hair- tearer. But then, I'm a curmudgeon. I love the beauty of the English language, ignorance of which among its speakers seems to be growing exponentially.

The depressing thing is, it is very common even on BBC tv where one assumes you require a degree to become an employable "face" for the fronting of serious programmes.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 20, 2018, 08:55:15 AM
... My 18 year old niece, who is taking a gap year and travelling and working, and who is a talented artist (but will be pursuing environmental studies as she is far more interested in that) ...

There you go... a clear sign of indoctrination.


Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 20, 2018, 09:11:48 AM
Speaking about a “culture of consent”:

Quote
... Here are ten words for even more ways men are constantly oppressing women:

1. Broplimenting

This is when a guy says something nice to you without asking for your consent first. Men should always ask, “Do you consent to me complimenting you?” before saying anything nice or else it’s assault..l

Ten Ways Men Oppress Women with Their Everyday Behavior https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/01/ten-ways-men-oppress-women-their-everyday-behavior-katherine-timpf/
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Alan Klein on May 20, 2018, 09:16:28 AM
Ego blocks Truth.  We tend to believe and confirm in our minds that what we already believe or that which benefits us.  We also tend to believe that what is taught us or what we are exposed too as being correct.  Our political opinions numb our reasoning ability.

I believe that years ago we were more open though to listen to others.  Today, people with opposing positions are shut down or demeaned.  We've become more dogmatic.  College has little effect.  In may have made it worse as professors seem to be allowing less discussion of all viewpoints.  Students are being taught that their way is the way. 
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 20, 2018, 09:25:40 AM
Not exactly, Phil. I have seventeen grandkids, all of whom are now grown up. They're all doing well, so my glass is full to overflowing. I also have fifteen great-grands with two more on the way. I've watched what passes for "education" for a long time now. Most young people don't know the difference between the verbs "to lie" and "to lay." Now that's a small and reasonably insignificant thing, but it illustrates the breakdown in our government-run education system. Nowadays most teachers don't know the difference either. I could go on and on, but the reason my grands are doing well isn't the school system. It's the attention their parents gave them.

One thing I forgot to mention: Several of my grandkids were home-schooled. That was in Colorado Springs, Colorado, which supposedly has a wonderful school system.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 20, 2018, 10:21:07 AM
Ego blocks Truth.  We tend to believe and confirm in our minds that what we already believe or that which benefits us.  We also tend to believe that what is taught us or what we are exposed too as being correct.  Our political opinions numb our reasoning ability.

I believe that years ago we were more open though to listen to others.  Today, people with opposing positions are shut down or demeaned.  We've become more dogmatic.  College has little effect.  In may have made it worse as professors seem to be allowing less discussion of all viewpoints. Students are being taught that their way is the way.

As I understood it, it's the opposite way around: "educators" are discouraged from making students feel emotions that may contradict their native beliefs. That's why some invited speakers are either prevented from fulfilling their invitation, or get shouted down or even physically assaulted.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 20, 2018, 10:44:09 AM
..."educators" are discouraged from making students feel emotions that may contradict their native beliefs...

Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: PeterAit on May 20, 2018, 02:44:15 PM


I agree with that sign 100%.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on May 20, 2018, 04:59:58 PM
Speaking about a “culture of consent”:

Ten Ways Men Oppress Women with Their Everyday Behavior https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/01/ten-ways-men-oppress-women-their-everyday-behavior-katherine-timpf/

I wish I could believe that that article was intended to be a joke. I really do.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: PeterAit on May 20, 2018, 05:50:45 PM
I wish I could believe that that article was intended to be a joke. I really do.

Jeremy


Uhh, it's rather obvious!
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 20, 2018, 06:23:27 PM
Uhh, it's rather obvious!

Except it is so close to truth that it is scary. As a Russian proverb would say: “In every joke there is a fraction of... joke.”
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 21, 2018, 03:33:00 AM
Russ, your glass is full of family which is absolutely wonderful.  I was referring to the broader drink, where you feel they are all poorly taught with a poor system and less knowledgeable and capable than you.  I couldn't disagree more, which is no slight upon you, by the way, nor upon myself for that matter.  There is simply more knowledge each generation and better ways of dealing with it and accessing it.

Perhaps the US really is terrible, but I doubt it.  Far more likely is that some folks insist it was "better in their day" or they don't like that what's being taught now is different to what they were taught, regardless of the facts of the matter, and so they call it poor or wrong or indoctrination or what have you.  I think that's nonsense.  I'm sure there are poor teachers and schools, but by and large I can see that the system (here, at least) is working very well.  Not without challenges, of course, but it was ever so.

As someone who is currently in the education system (albeit post grad), and with so many family members (my wife included) in the system from high school to post grad, I've quite a decent view.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 07:20:40 AM
Russ, your glass is full of family which is absolutely wonderful.  I was referring to the broader drink, where you feel they are all poorly taught with a poor system and less knowledgeable and capable than you.  I couldn't disagree more, which is no slight upon you, by the way, nor upon myself for that matter.  There is simply more knowledge each generation and better ways of dealing with it and accessing it.

Perhaps the US really is terrible, but I doubt it.  Far more likely is that some folks insist it was "better in their day" or they don't like that what's being taught now is different to what they were taught, regardless of the facts of the matter, and so they call it poor or wrong or indoctrination or what have you.  I think that's nonsense.  I'm sure there are poor teachers and schools, but by and large I can see that the system (here, at least) is working very well.  Not without challenges, of course, but it was ever so.

As someone who is currently in the education system (albeit post grad), and with so many family members (my wife included) in the system from high school to post grad, I've quite a decent view.

And, based on the disclosures within the last paragraph, you would write that, wouldn't you?

:-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 21, 2018, 07:50:33 AM
Russ, your glass is full of family which is absolutely wonderful.  I was referring to the broader drink, where you feel they are all poorly taught with a poor system and less knowledgeable and capable than you.  I couldn't disagree more, which is no slight upon you, by the way, nor upon myself for that matter.  There is simply more knowledge each generation and better ways of dealing with it and accessing it.

Perhaps the US really is terrible, but I doubt it.  Far more likely is that some folks insist it was "better in their day" or they don't like that what's being taught now is different to what they were taught, regardless of the facts of the matter, and so they call it poor or wrong or indoctrination or what have you.  I think that's nonsense.  I'm sure there are poor teachers and schools, but by and large I can see that the system (here, at least) is working very well.  Not without challenges, of course, but it was ever so.

As someone who is currently in the education system (albeit post grad), and with so many family members (my wife included) in the system from high school to post grad, I've quite a decent view.

Hi Phil,

The difference is that after they left school my grandkids educated themselves, except for the ones who'd been home-schooled and didn't need to fill in the blanks. And as far as family members in the education system are concerned, my dad taught when he was younger, my mother taught high school English, both of my grandmothers were teachers, my aunts all were teachers, one was a geology PhD who was head of the geology department at University of Houston, another uncle was a professor at Michigan State. I taught the C programming language at Colorado Tech until I couldn't afford to take more time away from my software business. So don't get too far into that "decent view" idea.

Check this: http://www.greensboro.com/townnews/education/walter-williams-test-scores-reveal-educational-fraud-from-k-to/article_04af41fd-ec48-5fd1-961a-48141c26bd39.html. It may be an eye-opener.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 08:27:50 AM
Russ, don't for a second imagine that that kind of thing is unique to the U.S. situation.

It flourishes in the U.K. too, and in Scotland, where university education is nominally free, apart from the personal problems of student accommodation, it seems a bit more perverse yet, because the ease of slipping into an academic life beyond one's natural ability has the added effect of taking up space others better equipped might have had. Sure, there is vetting of applicants, but add in the social engineering aspect of taking in the "challenged" brigade, and universities are faced with awful complications.

Oxbridge is regularly chastised for its demographic tone, but think for a moment: university is also a very socially focussed experience: how does somebody from a "normal" non-rich family cope with the expensive extra-curricular activities without the ease of financial access available to the others? Is that the making of a happy experience? If anything, I think it would breed bitterness by the ton. With all the future ramifications of that! One need only look at some politicians - and media folks - to see what it's done to them.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 21, 2018, 09:11:22 AM
..l There is simply more knowledge each generation and better ways of dealing with it and accessing it...

There is simply more information, which shouldn’t be equated with knowledge.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 21, 2018, 09:56:57 AM
There is simply more information, which shouldn’t be equated with knowledge.


That's a pretty shrewd analysis. Add the fact that Google allows for the instant expert on everything - but an expert who forgets within ten seconds - and Internet conversation itself ends up being a fairly suspect medium where only repeated exposure to someone (and the inevitable cracks in consistency that appear) is enough to blow that person's credibility.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Alan Klein on May 21, 2018, 11:06:00 AM
An example of how a professor taught his kids about Socialism.
http://www.thecommentator.com/article/646/does_socialism_work_a_classroom_experiment
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 21, 2018, 03:48:39 PM
And, based on the disclosures within the last paragraph, you would write that, wouldn't you?

I'm never shy to complain about things, Rob :-)  I pay a lot of money for my ongoing studies, and a lot of time devoted to it.  When it's not up to scratch, I say so.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 21, 2018, 03:49:57 PM
There is simply more information, which shouldn’t be equated with knowledge.

There's both!  DIKW - Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom.  I used knowledge deliberately.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 21, 2018, 03:57:02 PM
Hi Phil,

The difference is that after they left school my grandkids educated themselves, except for the ones who'd been home-schooled and didn't need to fill in the blanks. And as far as family members in the education system are concerned, my dad taught when he was younger, my mother taught high school English, both of my grandmothers were teachers, my aunts all were teachers, one was a geology PhD who was head of the geology department at University of Houston, another uncle was a professor at Michigan State. I taught the C programming language at Colorado Tech until I couldn't afford to take more time away from my software business. So don't get too far into that "decent view" idea.

Check this: http://www.greensboro.com/townnews/education/walter-williams-test-scores-reveal-educational-fraud-from-k-to/article_04af41fd-ec48-5fd1-961a-48141c26bd39.html. It may be an eye-opener.

This notion that homeschooling was so perfect that no further education was needed concerns me.  Anyway, a "decent view" means exactly that.  Currently partaking and watching.  Do you think all your relatives who taught, or you, were terrible?  Or were you all just the exceptions?

Regarding your link - if that's accurate, then I'm wrong.  There is no doubt that the US is in real trouble.  Sorry.  I'd offer some suggestions of a better system, but you don't think I know anything :-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 21, 2018, 03:59:33 PM
There's both!  DIKW - Data, Information, Knowledge, Wisdom.  I used knowledge deliberately.

Seriously? ???

Come on.  More information, yes.  More data, yes.  More knowledge, debatable, I side with Slobo, by a hair. 

More Wisdom, give me a break!  There is neither more nor less wisdom today, since wisdom has nothing to do with advances in information and knowledge.  Wisdom is gained on a personal level from experience and the ability of a person to learn from their mistakes, which has nothing to do with schooling. 
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: JoeKitchen on May 21, 2018, 04:01:35 PM
Anyway, this made the news today in my area. 

Party Like It's 1776! (http://6abc.com/education/cherry-hill-east-principal-apologizes-for-prom-ticket-language/3502232/)

Thank God for those Social Justice Warriors to remind us foolish patriots how insensitive this was.   
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 21, 2018, 04:24:41 PM
This notion that homeschooling was so perfect that no further education was needed concerns me.  Anyway, a "decent view" means exactly that.  Currently partaking and watching.  Do you think all your relatives who taught, or you, were terrible?  Or were you all just the exceptions?

Regarding your link - if that's accurate, then I'm wrong.  There is no doubt that the US is in real trouble.  Sorry.  I'd offer some suggestions of a better system, but you don't think I know anything :-)

Problem is, I didn't say what you seem to think I said, Phil. Of course further education was needed. It always is. But at least the kids who were home schooled knew the difference between the verbs "to lie" and "to lay," and, I think, understood what "It begs the question" means. I'm not sure the others ever will learn the difference, but they've learned to do software development and other things very well. A couple teach and a couple are attorneys.

You gotta remember that when my relatives were teaching, "teaching" meant something different from what it means now. What's called "teaching" nowadays often is left-wing indoctrination.

And I loved to teach, which is why I was willing to give up hours I'd normally have been able to charge out at $100 an hour or more, and receive the equivalent of about $15 per classroom hour and have to correct papers and grade tests on my own dime. I did a good enough job that the dean begged me to stay, but much as I loved teaching I simply couldn't afford to do it. Later on I taught the C++ programming language to a group at Cirrus Logic's R&D center in Colorado, but I was adequately compensated for that.

And yes, the US is in a crisis situation with its "education." I don't know whether or not you know anything, as you say, but just about anybody could come up with a better system than the one I see out there, destroyed by the unions.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 21, 2018, 07:15:24 PM
Seriously? ???

Come on.  More information, yes.  More data, yes.  More knowledge, debatable, I side with Slobo, by a hair. 

More Wisdom, give me a break!  There is neither more nor less wisdom today, since wisdom has nothing to do with advances in information and knowledge.  Wisdom is gained on a personal level from experience and the ability of a person to learn from their mistakes, which has nothing to do with schooling.

DIKW is a hierarchical model for data management and extraction.  It's nothing to do with personal wisdom in a classic sense.  It can, and is, taught as a very effective model.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 21, 2018, 08:02:10 PM
That thing has always puzzled me. Isn’t saving the water actually detrimental to the environment? I mean, a more concentrated sewage is entering rivers and oceans, no?

Euh... no. What matters is the amount of waste, the amount of water added to the main flow is negligible.

So the commonly accepted logic that using less water is better is totally correct.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 22, 2018, 09:10:20 AM
Interesting topic; the recent walks past the local sewage plant had become an idea for another kind of grimmer landscape quest. Sadly, smell aside, there is no way I can get anything very clearly throught the hedges, and where they end runs a high wall that it would always have been beyond my atheltic skills to scale, not that I might have wanted to do that, of course.

So, I cannot confirm or, equally, deny that there also exists an open pond of floating turkish delights. I have gone as far as a consultation of Google Maps, but they don't have the definition to help me in the least. If the Iran/NK preemptive data is all based on that quality, then we could all melt for nothing, which would be yet another shameful waste of resources - even if not of particularly scarce ones.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: jeremyrh on May 23, 2018, 11:09:09 AM
Interesting topic; the recent walks past the local sewage plant had become an idea for another kind of grimmer landscape quest. Sadly, smell aside, there is no way I can get anything very clearly throught the hedges, and where they end runs a high wall that it would always have been beyond my atheltic skills to scale, not that I might have wanted to do that, of course.

So, I cannot confirm or, equally, deny that there also exists an open pond of floating turkish delights. I have gone as far as a consultation of Google Maps, but they don't have the definition to help me in the least. If the Iran/NK preemptive data is all based on that quality, then we could all melt for nothing, which would be yet another shameful waste of resources - even if not of particularly scarce ones.

Sorry to let photography intrude but ... Hans Strand has been making some wonderful aerial photos of Man's impact on the Spanish countryside - perhaps he could be prevailed upon to help with your research?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 23, 2018, 03:01:48 PM
In the meantime, somewhere in America:
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 23, 2018, 03:10:23 PM
Must be a low-flush toilet.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 23, 2018, 05:09:58 PM
Full flush?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Robert Roaldi on May 23, 2018, 09:13:31 PM
Tribal behaviour is so interesting. A more efficient toilet sounds a little too "greenie", too (dare I say it) "leftie", so the predictable people come out against. Isn't it a good thing to accomplish the same function using less resources? Isn't that what corporations try to do all the time to benefit their bottom line?

Is there a problem with flushing the same amount of turd using less water? Is it un-american or something?

At one point, the thread even veered off into the well-traveled "we're going to hell in a hand cart" meme. I'm a couple of months away from being 65, and this horse shit is as stupid today as it was 50 years ago. My own view is that this view of the world is just old geezer arrogance. Since we're about to bow out, and others will take over, then things will certainly get worse because, well, we're no longer in charge. It was bs 50 ago, and it's bs now. Change the record.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on May 23, 2018, 09:35:01 PM
Nice little tirade against geezers, Robert. But being a geezer yourslef, your geezer arrogance prevented you from seeing the point in the OP: that the attempt to save ends up in using the same or more. The veracity of that premise hinges on the ratio of #1 to #2. If the ratio is more than 3:1, then all hail the leftie loo.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Robert Roaldi on May 23, 2018, 09:42:28 PM
Nice little tirade against geezers, Robert. But being a geezer yourslef, your geezer arrogance prevented you from seeing the point in the OP: that the attempt to save ends up in using the same or more. The veracity of that premise hinges on the ratio of #1 to #2. If the ratio is more than 3:1, then all hail the leftie loo.

Except it isn't true. We've had low-flow toilets for years. Everyone I know does. They work fine.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Alan Klein on May 23, 2018, 10:30:07 PM
Except it isn't true. We've had low-flow toilets for years. Everyone I know does. They work fine.
Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2018, 04:20:03 AM
Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.

A lot depends on diet.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 24, 2018, 08:13:13 AM
Problem is they don't work as well.  Sometimes mine get clogged up if I don't flush twice.  It's embarrassing for guests who don't realize and wait to the end to eliminate all the toilet paper and water with one flush instead of staging with two flushes.  Fortunately, most guests are neighbors who have the same problem where they live so they know what to do.  Toilets in restaurants and other outside businesses get clogged up more often because people overload with paper and the one gallon flush just doesn't eliminate it.    The next person gets all ticked off.  There was a reason original toilets had higher flush rates.  Because they worked better in eliminating waste without as many clogs.

But Alan, think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times. You save water every time you flush a low-flush toilet. Our politicians made sure of that.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2018, 08:39:45 AM
But Alan, think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times. You save water every time you flush a low-flush toilet. Our politicians made sure of that.


Especially if to resolve the same motion...
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: LesPalenik on May 24, 2018, 08:50:44 AM
Our local politicians decided wisely that they can save money by using one curbside recycling truck to collect mixed glass, plastic, aluminum cans and paper. Newsprint and other high-quality paper which make up two thirds of the truck load are mixed up with glass shards and plastic and then require multi-stage sorting to separate it from other waste. So any savings from the sorting at source and transportation are negated by the more expensive sorting costs down the line and reduced usability of the various materials.     

Washington state published some numbers from their recycling program. For example, in Spokane the trucks have seven different compartments for various waste materials. Their collection costs are higher than for mixed trucks, but they are able to sell the recycling materials to local processors for $24 a ton, whereas Vancouver which does the separation at the plant, received only $5 per ton, and Bellingham pays its processor $25 per ton to accept the recyclables.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Robert Roaldi on May 24, 2018, 09:06:10 AM
... think of all the water you're saving when you flush it two or even three times...

I accept the fact that you believe this, but repeating it does not make it true. Anecdotes are fine and sometimes funny, but that is all they are. I suggest that you buy a better model of toilet.

Your experience does NOT conform to mine nor to the experience of anyone I know, and we've had low-flow toilets in these parts for a couple of decades now.

The knee-jerk reaction against anything that smacks of "environmentalism" is silly and tribal. All of us benefit from various pieces of environmental legislation every day, even if you are politically against admitting it. Try this experiment, go to a cruise night at your local mall and stand at the exit of the parking lot when the 1950s-1960s muscle cars go home at the end of the evening. Breathe deep.

Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2018, 10:03:19 AM
I accept the fact that you believe this, but repeating it does not make it true. Anecdotes are fine and sometimes funny, but that is all they are. I suggest that you buy a better model of toilet.

Your experience does NOT conform to mine nor to the experience of anyone I know, and we've had low-flow toilets in these parts for a couple of decades now.

The knee-jerk reaction against anything that smacks of "environmentalism" is silly and tribal. All of us benefit from various pieces of environmental legislation every day, even if you are politically against admitting it. Try this experiment, go to a cruise night at your local mall and stand at the exit of the parking lot when the 1950s-1960s muscle cars go home at the end of the evening. Breathe deep.

Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?

For me, it would be worth it!

Funny thing: my current Fiesta is the only diesel I ever bought. Seven or so years later I'm still under 27,500 kilometres with it! I have never got used to the difference in where the power comes in, and though it can see the pants off bigger petrol cars once up in the 100+ kph, getting up to 60 or so is a real pain.

I don't like diesel; would never have bought it had I had more experience of them in the generally equal displacement brackets where a comparison with petrol was worthwhile.

But cars should be more than just A to B things; they are also to be enjoyed. On many levels of ownership.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 24, 2018, 10:39:58 AM
Did you enjoy the "good old days" of changing points and fouled plugs every 10,000 miles? I don't see anyone going back to those days, do you?

Talk about "fouled plugs!" Try flushing your great water saver toilet just once after a heavy sitdown.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Ray on May 24, 2018, 11:04:08 AM
Look! The solution is quite simple. If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.  ;D
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 24, 2018, 03:03:53 PM
Look! The solution is quite simple. If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown, flush it down.  ;D

You won't say that if you develop prostate problems.

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 26, 2018, 01:20:27 AM
I'll say it again - if your dual flush system isn't working properly - fix it or get one that does.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Rob C on May 26, 2018, 04:09:05 AM
I'll say it again - if your dual flush system isn't working properly - fix it or get one that does.


If you have to say it again...

;-)
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: JNB_Rare on May 26, 2018, 09:54:40 AM
At the risk of being inappropriate, we haven't covered right-wing potty logic:  :)

1. Crap in someone else's toilet.
2. Don't flush.
3. Later, make snide comments about the toilet owner's lack of hygiene and possible ancestry.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 26, 2018, 10:03:22 AM
I'll say it again - if your dual flush system isn't working properly - fix it or get one that does.

You're sounding like a low flush toilet, Phil. Flushing over and over again.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: Farmer on May 26, 2018, 06:49:07 PM
You're sounding like a low flush toilet, Phil. Flushing over and over again.

That's because there's so much crap to get rid of, Russ.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: RSL on May 26, 2018, 08:04:04 PM
I'll certainly buy that.
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: OmerV on May 26, 2018, 09:01:46 PM
At the risk of being inappropriate, we haven't covered right-wing potty logic:  :)

1. Crap in someone else's toilet.
2. Don't flush.
3. Later, make snide comments about the toilet owner's lack of hygiene and possible ancestry.

Hilarious, though as a left winger I’ve known liberals who act and think exactly like that...towards other left wingers!  ;D
Title: Re: Classic Left-Wing Logic
Post by: JNB_Rare on May 27, 2018, 07:42:07 AM
Hilarious, though as a left winger I’ve known liberals who act and think exactly like that...towards other left wingers!  ;D

We all hope that shit only flushes down, but stereotypes surely float both ways.