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Author Topic: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data  (Read 4858 times)

mearussi

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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2018, 08:28:07 PM »

That link took me to data for CANSON only.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mearussi

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2018, 08:38:51 PM »

That link took me to data for CANSON only.
I guess that's what they've tested so far. But it's not the paper that's important but the ink comparisons between Epson, Canon and HP.

But here's one for Epson on Epson: http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/WIR_Epson_P7000_and_P9000_2018_01_31.pdf
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2018, 08:40:58 PM »

What do you mean by "ink comparisons"? I don't understand. And in any longevity testing the paper is very important too.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mearussi

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2018, 08:43:13 PM »

What do you mean by "ink comparisons"? I don't understand. And in any longevity testing the paper is very important too.
Well, using Canson paper they compare the fade resistance of the latest Epson inks vs the latest Canon inks and then the older HP and K3 inks (just scroll down).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2018, 08:47:16 PM »

OK you now added in a link to relevant Epson papers - that's useful for Epson paper. Thanks. I believe this data would also apply to the SC-P5000 because it is the same inkset.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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mearussi

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2018, 08:49:18 PM »

OK you now added in a link to relevant Epson papers - that's useful for Epson paper. Thanks. I believe this data would also apply to the SC-P5000 because it is the same inkset.
No doubt it would. What I also find interesting about the first link is the comparison between the new Canon inkset and the older one (page 5), with the older one being more fade resistant.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2018, 08:55:57 PM »

I'm particularly interested in the dark storage ratings - also interesting to see how well the Epson Legacy papers with the HDX inkset do compared to anything else in all that data.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Simmons

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2018, 04:46:43 AM »

No doubt it would. What I also find interesting about the first link is the comparison between the new Canon inkset and the older one (page 5), with the older one being more fade resistant.

That's interesting. It would be useful to see something like that even on Hahnemühle paper. I'm considering to upgrade my ipf8300 to the new pro 4000 but even if is a great machine if the results are these...
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Panagiotis

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 05:00:16 AM »

I would appreciate some help reading that data. I don't understand why the cheap RC paper (Canson premiun lustre) which is obviously loaded with OBAs scored better than the Baryta papers and the Platine. 
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mearussi

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2018, 06:14:05 AM »

I would appreciate some help reading that data. I don't understand why the cheap RC paper (Canson premiun lustre) which is obviously loaded with OBAs scored better than the Baryta papers and the Platine.
RC is tough paper. But WIR doesn't take into account the color cast resulting from OBA fading. Aardenburg has far more detailed data but is not as well funded so hasn't had a chance to do much testing with Canon's new inkset.
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Panagiotis

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2018, 06:18:52 AM »

RC is tough paper. But WIR doesn't take into account the color cast resulting from OBA fading. Aardenburg has far more detailed data but is not as well funded so hasn't had a chance to do much testing with Canon's new inkset.
Ah! ok! Thanks.
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kers

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2018, 06:27:24 AM »

Interesting results...

Canson Platine is not doing that well in these measurements...
and indeed the RC's are doing exceptionally well...
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nirpat89

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 07:47:10 AM »

Interesting that Vivera is still king of the hill, by a long shot.  And Canon seems to have gone backwards.  Epson is in the right direction.
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MHMG

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 10:16:28 AM »

Interesting results...

Canson Platine is not doing that well in these measurements...
and indeed the RC's are doing exceptionally well...

The current WIR testing Protocol especially misranks RC media (indeed any papers that contain both TiO2 and OBAs) for three significant reasons: 1) inadequate weighting of media whitepoint color changes in the overall score, 2) loss of OBA fluorescence artificially propping up the WIR yellow patches fading without accounting for the same yellow shifts adversely affecting other highlight colors (e.g., very light grays, blue skies, etc) not represented in the WIR color test target, and 3) failure to account for further ongoing light-induced media discoloration happening to the test samples in dark storage well after the light exposure test step is finished.

The current Aardenburg testing protocol also misranks RC media scores for reason #3), i.e., failure to account for further ongoing light-induced media discoloration happening to the test samples in dark storage well after the light exposure test step is finished.   

The Aardenburg site has been pretty dormant for the last year, because I'm spending as much volunteer time as I can on sorting out this post exposure dark storage staining issue, and incorporating the results into a more expanded test report that will provide additional information on light exposure, dark storage, and combined light/dark storage factors. Ultimately, to distill the results down to a simplified (but not oversimplified) "Conservation Display rating" for each printer/ink/media combination requires an additional year or two of ongoing testing for every paper prone to this type of media discoloration. Fortunately, many of today's media do not exhibit the problem. Unfortunately, many do!

The I* metric used at Aardenburg Imaging & Archives to measure color and tonal accuracy is not at issue here nor is the current Aardenburg 30 patch color target design. The current test target has enough color patches to flag the additional color changes, and the I* metric will correctly weight the changes into the score.  What's at issue is the continuing monitoring of the color patch values as light fade test samples are retired to dark storage with pre-existing light exposure doses, and how to present all this additional data in a logically implemented test report. This expanded testing sequence greatly extends the length and complexity of the testing, but I feel it absolutely must be done if printmakers are to be given a more complete and truthful "archival" story about today's modern printers, inks, and media. The printer/ink/media combinations chosen for the  Aardenburg Inks and Media testing 2017 campaign will be the first published results to incorporate our "new and improved" test methodology.

RC photo media are going to take a particularly big hit when this improved Aardenburg testing methodology gets published because essentially all of them suffer from additional post exposure dark storage and/or low intensity display yellowing problems.

kind regards,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 10:25:50 AM by MHMG »
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2018, 11:59:48 AM »

Mark, well done on the continuing research  on the new parameters of color fade testing for photographic prints.

This Wilhelm data just re-enforces HP's vast lead in color permanance. I don't understand how anyone interested in museum permanent images would print with any other inkset. HP has demonstrated early on the superiority of their inkset--neutral balance gray inks with nearly neutral fading color balance.

Sure, Canon and Epson show some "fringe area" color gamut superiority, but how important is that when the whole image will be unacceptably faded within a hundred years compared to HP's nearly 200 years?

While on the subject of fade resistance, I see that Wilhelm has now completed the first tests of dye sublimation prints on aluminum!
http://files8.webydo.com/92/9255329/UploadedFiles/FE072ABF-34FE-7382-F9A1-8F68CB199129.pdf

This might nearly be on par with Epson and Canon!!!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2018, 01:44:59 PM »


This Wilhelm data just re-enforces HP's vast lead in color permanance. ..........

Except this is not quite what the data shows. It depends on which paper and under what conditions. Epson HDX and HP Vivera trade rank depending...........
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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narikin

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2018, 09:19:09 PM »

Interesting how the Canson Baryta Prestige (some OBAs) does as well/better than the OBA free Platine.
and that Canson Baryta does (very marginally) better than Platine.

Anyone care to hazard a guess why?

Great to see Epson's new inkset being a big improvement. I'd imagine it's the new long life Yellow that will be the major boost here.
(the 'Prestige' result reminds me of the Harman Gloss Baryta, another paper with some OBAs, that also had very good longevity in both Wilhelm and Aardenberg)



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Wayne Fox

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2018, 11:17:27 PM »

Interesting how the Canson Baryta Prestige (some OBAs) does as well/better than the OBA free Platine.
and that Canson Baryta does (very marginally) better than Platine.

Anyone care to hazard a guess why?


Glancing through Marks information on his website as well as his various posts it seems the challenge is the methodology to test changes from OBA "yellowing" is different than  how you might test for ink fading. Wilhelm doesn't really account for OBA yellowing in any of there tests.   The other challenge I'm hearing is that the yellowing as OBA's lose their ability to function which is supposed to just reveal the natural color of the paper, there's actually a yellowing effect, so the same paper base, one that had no OBA's to start with vs one that did won't necessarily look the same after an extended period of time, but the OBA paper will actually look yellower.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 11:54:05 AM by Wayne Fox »
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shadowblade

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 01:47:47 AM »

The Canon values are terrible - even worse than their first-generation Lucia inks, which, although decent, were still well behind the Lucia EX inks used in the x300/x400 series printers.

Glad I've stayed well clear of this current crop of Canon printers.

The Epson HDX inks look decent on these tests - I'd guess comparable to the Lucia EX inkset as being just behind the HP Vivera inkset, although they didn't test Lucia EX in this series of tests.

I wonder about some of the HP results, though. As a whole the numbers for the HP inkset look better than the HDX inkset on the same patterns, with the exception of the bare bulb tests for the Platine and the Baryta Photographique (even though the 'under glass' and 'UV filter' tests for the same papers showed the HP as being longer lasting than the HDX). I wonder whether this is a real effect or just a statistical anomaly, due to the number being essentially a threshold tests (i.e. 'how many years before x number of patches drops below y benchmark' rather than 'what is the overall rate of fading' - for instance, did the HP bare-bulb rating on those papers quickly drop down to 89 when the threshold was 90, then stay at 89 for a long time, or did it just rapidly and progressively continue to drop).

I guess what this means overall is that I'd still stick to HP Vivera as first preference (until more data comes out on the Z9's Vivid Photo inkset, which doesn't appear to be the same as the Vivid Photo inkset in other HP printers), but would be happy to use HDX just as much as Lucia EX as a second choice should Vivera not be an option (given the printer and media combinations offered by various print companies).
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