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Author Topic: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data  (Read 3981 times)

mearussi

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2018, 10:02:59 PM »

I'm not doubting the test results, I'm a huge believer in MMG's work and the experience behind his results.  What I am saying is that future technology will make inkjet obsolete.  It's not hard to imagine sheets of paper-like substrates with embedded electronics creating an image using flicker free high frequency images. This is almost here now in B&W. There will probably be machines that take rolls and expertise will be needed for a good final product.

(I take MMG's point about 100 year old B&W prints kept by our families, and any print done now with a fade free life of 100 years will clearly be of family value for many more years than that. But my guess is that long before 100 years they would have done what I've done and scanned and re-printed using new technology)
Unfortunately, a fixed reference like a "100 years rating" is only a comparative rating with all factors being equal. My concern about ink fading has nothing to do with whether it will still look good in 100+ years in a best case scenario but with a more of a extreme environment. Having seen so many badly faded prints in commercial environments I just don't want my print to be one of them.  So if Epson has a WIR rating 2x that of Canon that tells me that under really bad conditions a Epson print might last 20 years instead of 10.
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Paul Roark

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 11:56:15 PM »


For my "blue" toner in black and white inksets that is an offset for the warm carbon (that is in all but the toner position), I use Canon Lucia EX blue and cyan pigments that still appear available for the iPF-6300.  (See https://www.itsupplies.com/Canon-iPF6300-6350-Ink-Cartridges-s/2600.htm.)  Mark's tests at 140 MLuxHrs showed an equal delta e of 1.9 for the blue and cyan patches of this Canon EX inkset on H. Photo Rag.  With B&W inksets, the trouble some inksets have had is a greenish shift as the colors used to offset the carbon warmth fade at different rates.  ...

My mistake; it turns out, on review of my notes, that I did look at HP blue ink in the formulation of my current blue toner mix.  The HP Z3100, with its 12 ink Vivera inkset did/does have a blue ink that I considered.  However, at 140 Mlux-hrs on HPR, the blue patch delta-e was 3.8, the cyan 2.5.  The Canon Lucia EX results looked better for my uses.  My vague memory is that I might have also purchased some and found the hue further to the magenta than the Canon blue.  My goal was to reduce that hue angle difference as much as possible, in addition to having the inks fade at the same rates.

My ideal would have been for a single-pigment blue that offset the carbon warmth, but there was none that worked well.  In the watercolor field the (Smith?) Indanthrone Blue actually did it, but it is not properly prepared for inkjet use.  Nonetheless, I made a test ink with it, printed some test strips, and fade tested the results next to the combined draft blue-cyan inkjet mix.  The results did not impress me enough to go further.  Additionally, the feedback I received from those with the equipment to prepare the pigment for inkjet use was that the market for it was too small to warrant the investment.  So, that ended my search for a single-pigment carbon offset.  Staying with the best OEM pigs was the way to go.

I note that in looking at the new HP blue in the "Vivid" inkset, the pigments are ground to a finer particle size.  The smaller the particles, the faster they fade, all else being equal.  The finer grind is to improve high gloss printing.

There are, of course, lots of shortcuts and assumptions I make in moving forward with my personal inkset formulations.  I rely on the best information I can find and do some of my own fade testing as well -- not nearly as sophisticated are Mark's  (but better than "rear window").   With time being such a scarce resource, I very pragmatically make decisions with admittedly incomplete information.   But when the final neutral inkjet test strip edged out the silver print comparison test strip in the same fade test session, I decided I'd done enough work on the inks to get on with the photography and printing, which is the goal, after all.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2018, 09:20:24 AM »


I note that in looking at the new HP blue in the "Vivid" inkset, the pigments are ground to a finer particle size.  The smaller the particles, the faster they fade, all else being equal.  The finer grind is to improve high gloss printing.
decided I'd done enough work on the inks to get on with the photography and printing, which is the goal, after all.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Based on this document or an MSDS?
https://images10.newegg.com/UploadFilesForNewegg/itemintelligence/HP/Z6200_TechNotable_US1401572815307.pdf

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Paul Roark

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2018, 10:27:28 AM »

Ernst,

See http://www.lexjet.com/771-ink-cartridges-for-designjet-z6200-wvivid-photo-ink .

Obviously, I have no way to verify the statement in the above URL.  Also, my modifier, "all else being equal," is almost never the case.  High quality fade testing is the best evidence, and I have not done that regarding the new HP Vivid inks, with the blue being of most interest to me.

I wish we had a fast and reasonably reliable way to do fade testing, but I don't have such.  Interestingly, Bob Zeiss, the founder of MIS inks (long retired), who was a serious and successful engineer, had some procedure using bleach that he felt gave a useful quick test for fade resistance.  I'm not sure what his procedure was.  I briefly tried bleaching some test strips and did not see results that looked useful to me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
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Wayne Fox

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2018, 01:40:40 PM »

When we talk about fade in terms of years, such as 125, 180, or even 250 years, is that not a mildly vainglorious discussion.  It's my guess most here will not be around in 50 years.  It's unrealistic to think that in 100 years the methods of display will be anything like what we use today.  It maybe that colorants and substrates will all be replaced by electronic paper and colors continually regenerated - who knows.
Iíve always felt we get over concerned about the fading qualities of an image, (and Iím not saying itís not important), but in reality itís the survivability of the actual physical print that will be the most likely end of the vast majority of images created today.  Looking through history and how difficult it has been to maintain and keep works of art, and  how much effort has to be expended to insure their continued survivability, it would seem that unless you attain a high level of fame which makes your work valuable to future generations, most prints will probably meet some untimely demise or just be tossed for lack of interest at some point in the future.

That doesnít mean as creators we shouldnít be concerned, and in fact it certainly depends on the type of work that you produce.  In my case before I retired from portrait photography Iím guessing there are images which in fact will be held and protected for a long time to come to share with future generations. (unfortunately those photographers are still producing the bulk of their prints using chemical processes, the least stable of all the current output methods). But as a landscape photographer selling out of a gallery, I believe that most of my clients are interested in the image for their immediate gratification and who knows if anyone will be interested in the piece (even them) in 20 or 30 years, or even 100-200 years (if it even survives).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2018, 02:22:19 PM »

Wayne, I must say I have a different perspective on what we may call the philosophy of longevity. In numerous contexts people value the long term survival and quality of imagery. How old are the images in the pyramids of Egypt or in the Caves of Lascaux? Art historians and many others value this heritage because of the insight it provides into the lives of ancient peoples. In 1958 I visited a family in Germany, ex-nobility, whose family heritage was tangible going back 500 years, in a series of many books of family history neatly arranged on a couple of shelves that they were proud to show me. They were relieved this heritage survived the war. Ever since the invention of photography, permanence of the image has been a sought after objective. One of the enduring qualities of photography is supposed to be its endurance, which is very good for properly processed B&W darkroom prints. How often have we regretted older chemical processes for making colour prints, because of their instability and the need for software gymnastics to recover colours that faded at different rates producing a mess. Photographic archives memorializing important world events, how people lived and how various photographers perceived the world from the 1840s onward increase in interest and value as they age, provided they age gracefully. Turning to our family photos - like many people I have an extensive collection and it is growing. They may be of interest to my children and my grandchildren. It's not inconceivable that a grandchild 50 years from now may take an interest in how his/her grandparents lived in their youth. That would cover an inter-generational life span from the 1940s into the 2060s - well over 100 years. So yes, in that case the condition of the family archive matters. It's not vainglorious to think about this - we needn't make any exaggerated assumptions about our own self-importance for the longevity of our prints to *perhaps* mean something to our heirs and successors. So with that in mind, all else equal I'll prefer a paper and inkset promising more stability rather than less. It may not be *the* determinative consideration in what I print with, but it matters.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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John Caldwell

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2018, 02:25:05 PM »

... unless you attain a high level of fame which makes your work valuable to future generations, most prints will probably meet some untimely demise or just be tossed for lack of interest at some point in the future...

Wayne accurately characterizes the fate of my prints.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2018, 04:12:58 PM »

Wayne, I must say I have a different perspective on what we may call the philosophy of longevity.
Iím not sure we are that different.  As I stated, I believe many of the images I created of individuals and families in my first 30 years as a photographer will be treasured for decades.  In fact Iím old enough now that I have already experienced this on many occasions where someone tells me about treasuring a picture I had taken of their parents or parents family when their parents were small children, or even babies.

 Were I a portrait photographer today, I would have a category of higher priced prints that emphasize the longevity of the product, produced on proven paper and probably with an HP printer.  While most might not survive, those that do may be very important.  I do some genealogy as a hobby and stumbling on a photograph of one of my ancestors from many years ago is always a treat. As I mentioned, I have many people photographers as customers, and because of the price point of C-prints, this still completely dominates this part of the industry in output.  My Chromira printer cranks out thousands of prints for portrait and wedding photographers every day, the one area where many of the images produced should be valued for longevity.  unfortunately the public in general is partly to blame because their seems to be a universal acceptance of the longevity of digital images, and most assume that if the photographer gives them a DVD or if the images are uploaded to some website, it will serve as a long term repository to preserve the images for future generations.

However, this website seems to be focused more on commercial photographers and landscape/fine art photographers.  Iím sure some people photographers lurk here, but I have no illusions of grandeur and feel my ďfine artĒ work isnít collectible (and my sales staff is forbidden to even infer or discuss this as they sell an image).  In fact there are photographers whoís work I think little of that may be approaching being ďcollectibleĒ, but most of those arenít about the skill of photography and the images but because they are famous from some non related avenue, such as actor.  There are also some notable photographers who have placed themselves in this collectible category, but do so as part of their marketing hype and despite their claims, there work isnít valued as collectible art based on the resell market and to be honest, Iím doubtful they will actually attain that status they believe they have.  It would be interesting to see if 100 years from now anyone actually recognizes the name Peter Lik and if a large amount of his work actually survives, although I believe Ansel Adams has a pretty good chance of being remembered.

Mike Johnston at the Online Photographer wrote an article 8 ways to preserve your pictures and he presents his case quite well.  His first step was to become famous.

Iím not saying we should just blow it off, it is important.  but each photographer should evaluate their own priorities and make the decision with some attempt at realism.    I stuck with Epson for various reasons and despite the longevity tests felt epson still delivered adequate stability for my work.  I like the fact the new Epson inks are better but it wasnít a factor at all in upgrading, I was more interested in what they did with the black inks.  I guess those using Canon now have to ask themselves this same question and resolve their position.  I think for most, switching doesnít make sense, just like I always felt the argument to switch from Epson to Canon because of the tests wasnít really a major factor in the comparison.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 08:54:04 PM by Wayne Fox »
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nirpat89

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2018, 06:28:54 PM »

Wayne accurately characterizes the fate of my prints.

Most likely mine will end up in a bin of the local Goodwill store priced a few dollars that people will buy for the frame.  That is how I get many of my frames...sadly.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2018, 08:02:07 PM »

Iím not sure we are that different.  ..............

In light of that expanded explanation you're right, we aren't. And I especially agree with your point about making decisions with some attempt at realism, though sometimes I have to say, looking at realism straight up without no dose of wishful thinking can be cold comfort indeed!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2018, 04:47:57 AM »

Ernst,

I wish we had a fast and reasonably reliable way to do fade testing, but I don't have such.  Interestingly, Bob Zeiss, the founder of MIS inks (long retired), who was a serious and successful engineer, had some procedure using bleach that he felt gave a useful quick test for fade resistance.  I'm not sure what his procedure was.  I briefly tried bleaching some test strips and did not see results that looked useful to me.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The local linen industry here used wide fields to bleach the fabric.
http://www.eindhoven-in-beeld.nl/picture/show/11564/Tongelresestraat-bleekvelden
http://www.eindhoven-in-beeld.nl/picture/show/31281/De-bleekvelden-van-Elias
That it became an indoors chemical process does not mean the process was 1:1 similar in its effect. The original process had a lot of chemical steps too. A nice description (in Dutch) of it is here: http://www.irenemaas.nl/pages/Bleekerij/Bleeken.htm

Would a hermetically sealed stainless steel box with a bleach like H2O2 liquid at the bottom, patches hanging above from the lid, temperature controlled, small vent inside to create a homogeneous atmosphere, be the answer for a fast indicative test?  It is oxidation that is tested, nothing more but I think repeatability could be quite good.  Whether the liquid should be renewed after each time interval is something I can not judge, might be enough to use a lot of it and an extra lid to cover the top fast after removing the samples. Ask Bob Zeiss whether it was something like that he used.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 06:16:17 AM by Ernst Dinkla »
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kers

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2018, 05:08:50 AM »

Talking about longevity.
Digital images already made certain that originals stay 'forever'.

This makes the longevity of prints less important. Reprints will not be exactly the same but probably enough the same ( if done well in all cases)
That said it is important that print will stay good long enough depending on its purpose.
In that light it is foremost important to make sure the digital original is kept save.
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Pieter Kers
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2018, 09:07:19 AM »

Talking about longevity.
Digital images already made certain that originals stay 'forever'.

This makes the longevity of prints less important. .............

Well, actually they don't necessarily and the longevity of prints remains important to those who value longevity. There are serious technical risks to the storage of data that make survival comparable to the stability periods of dark storage reported in the WIR reports, for whatever they are worth, an open contest that paper may well win under putative circumstances we have already witnessed.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Les Sparks

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2018, 02:59:51 PM »

Quote
Talking about longevity.
Digital images already made certain that originals stay 'forever'.
Digital data is only as permanent or forever it the storage technology, hardware and software, is forever. Digital storage technology has a relatively short life, for example we had 81/2" and 5 1/4" floppy disks, then 3 1/2" disks, zip drives, various tape backup formats, etc. all of which are unusable today. Currently we have hard disks (internal and external) which have finite life and need to be backed up to something usually another hard disk. Then we have the cloud but does the cloud is really just another collection of hard disks provided by some company. And some of these companies have already gone out of business to they're not forever.
This just looking at the hardware side of storage. We also need to consider hardware software side needed to recall the stored 0 and 1's and converting them to pictures and then displaying the pictures. I'm not at all sure that the required hardware and software will be around forever.
I feel that if you have a photo that is important (often to you or your family) you need to print it with the the technology that currently provides that longest life.
 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2018, 03:27:16 PM »

Exactly.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Paul Roark

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »

...
I feel that if you have a photo that is important (often to you or your family) you need to print it with the the technology that currently provides that longest life.

I totally agree also, but then it takes us to the question of whether the paper is up to the job.  Accelerated age testing is considerably more uncertain than accelerated fade testing, from what I can tell (not being an expert).  See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerated_aging 

This is admittedly a bit OT, but people interested in fading perhaps should also consider the substrate.  While buyers from the gallery I mostly sell through never ask about any of this, the members of my wife's genealogy society definitely have when I've gone to the meetings and given talks.  And when it comes to the family photos, those people may be the people to listen to in terms of their concerns.

My concern has mostly been that the "Arrhenius equation" approach, that seems to be used to come up with the results we see, holds the temperature and humidity at a static point, as I understand it, whereas daily and other cycling are closer to reality.

Our inkjet papers are coated substrates, like a laminate.  I've been led to believe by people in the conservation field that all laminates ultimately de-laminate.  The stresses of differential coefficients of expansion with temperature and humidity ultimately will crack and/or separate the coating.

How certain can we be that our inkjet papers will not do that much sooner than the, typically about 300 years, that the static testing protocols predict?

In my local museum restoration project (I just copied and printed the photos), the surfaces of many old photos were often a mess, with the useful image information I could pull from them via scanning being, apparently, limited by the deterioration of the surface.

Are there any testing results that can provide some information on this issue?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com



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enduser

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2018, 09:14:30 PM »

There are two considerations: the image used to make a display, and the display itself. I have a large collection of transparencies and I initially, in the 70s) thought that was it for image storage. Along comes affordable digital storage and I scanned them all.  When that format is displaced I'll use what ever that is whilst both exist together - and so on.

For display, we have inkjet and tests to tell us the best inks and paper to use. That will eventually be displaced by electronic media,although in the display case I think printed and electronic will share the "display" world for a long time.  For the future, electronic display will become cheaper than paper/canvas printing, as is often the case with transformative technology.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: WIR finally released new Canon and Epson fade data
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2018, 02:39:39 AM »



Are there any testing results that can provide some information on this issue?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

In the graphic industry all kinds of tests standards exist for papers used in books, packaging etc but I guess the tests for security papers and banknotes are more suited for the papers we use.
https://www.ugra.ch/en/services/security-printing/

Remains the question who is going to pay for it.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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