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Author Topic: judging brightness before printing  (Read 4125 times)

jimh

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judging brightness before printing
« on: April 02, 2018, 03:42:05 pm »

Like many people who don't have printers and get their prints online, I still struggle with brightness, and often get prints that are disappointingly dark. Color isn't the problem - I have a calibrated system and use 'proofing' in C1.   But it's still hard to get the levels right.

Over the years I've learned to get the image looking good on my display, then boost brightness by 5% (or more) when ordering a print.  But that never really feels right, and it's just guesswork.  I wish there was a better way.

Does anyone have a system or trick they've worked out to evaluate the brightness/contrast of an image for printing?

Jim Kasson

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2018, 03:49:29 pm »

Like many people who don't have printers and get their prints online, I still struggle with brightness, and often get prints that are disappointingly dark. Color isn't the problem - I have a calibrated system and use 'proofing' in C1.   But it's still hard to get the levels right.

Over the years I've learned to get the image looking good on my display, then boost brightness by 5% (or more) when ordering a print.  But that never really feels right, and it's just guesswork.  I wish there was a better way.

Does anyone have a system or trick they've worked out to evaluate the brightness/contrast of an image for printing?

There are lots of tricks, but I'll just give you what I think is the most effective one that most folks ignore. Be sure to soft proof with the surround that matches the mat you're going to use. If you use white mats, use a white surround. That alone can make a huge difference.

80 cd/m2 is a good starting place for your monitor's brightness, too.

Jim

smthopr

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2018, 03:52:38 pm »

Like many people who don't have printers and get their prints online, I still struggle with brightness, and often get prints that are disappointingly dark. Color isn't the problem - I have a calibrated system and use 'proofing' in C1.   But it's still hard to get the levels right.

Over the years I've learned to get the image looking good on my display, then boost brightness by 5% (or more) when ordering a print.  But that never really feels right, and it's just guesswork.  I wish there was a better way.

Does anyone have a system or trick they've worked out to evaluate the brightness/contrast of an image for printing?

Emissive displays can "fool" you about this.

I have my display calibrated for photoshop and printing at a max brightness of 60 nits.  Yes, I don't get the maximum contrast possible from the display, but prints are even lower in contrast so I find that this helps.

Sometimes, I just turn on the room lights and look again at the display.  I don't do this to judge the colors, but it helps to see the "brightness" of the image in context.  I do this while viewing the soft proof and find that it helps me get the printing density in the right ballpark.

I sometimes also shrink the image and set the photoshop background to white to help compensate for the seduction of the emissive display.  The image you've been working on will quickly look darker when you do this. A quick overall gamma adjustment to the image can be done in this environment and help produce a print that is more what you expect.
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elliot_n

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 04:03:37 pm »

Compare with some files that you've successfully printed in the past.
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jimh

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 04:15:51 pm »

Looking at the image smaller, with a white surround, definitely helps.

I hate big inkjet printers, and decided to quit fighting with them years ago.  But of course we have a small cheap one for household use.  It occurs to me that maybe I could just get some good paper and do a 'photo quality' print on my home printer, and that would be a pretty good check on brightness.   But only if the brightness of the cheap printers is roughly comparable to the big ones.

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 04:18:06 pm »

I address these issues with dark images viewed in dark environments with these two past LuLa threads...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79948

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=89689.0

For a quick check examine your image surrounded by in a white field in Photoshop or in a smaller thumbnail view in an image browser of choice. I use Mac's Column layout and click on the image and enlarge by dragging the column borders to the right. Quite a few of my images wind up looking dark this way.
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digitaldog

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 04:28:58 pm »

I address these issues with dark images viewed in dark environments with these two past LuLa threads...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=79948
This part was especially telling:

Yeah, I should've been more clear on that.
+1 on what Jim and Elliot wrote!
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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2018, 04:57:40 pm »

+1 on having white surround when viewing on a monitor.  Take a look at Charles Kramer's recent workshop video Perception, Monitors & Dark Prints.

Another thing is to make sure the illumination for the print matches as close as possible the brightness of the monitor.  A quick check is to take a spot meter reading of a pure white on the monitor and then a reading the white of your paper under the illumination you are viewing the print.  They need to be close.
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BobShaw

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2018, 05:27:36 pm »

I still struggle with brightness, and often get prints that are disappointingly dark. Color isn't the problem - I have a calibrated system
Part of the calibrating is to set the brightness based on the ambient, or at least it is with Spyder.
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digitaldog

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2018, 06:12:13 pm »

Part of the calibrating is to set the brightness based on the ambient, or at least it is with Spyder.
That 'feature' if I can be so kind, doesn't really work!
The settings for both cd/m^2 and backlight color temp is a trial and error process. When you find the correct values based on your display/measuring instrument/software/viewing conditions, that's the correct values. As outlined below:

Why are my prints too dark?
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013

In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4
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Doug Gray

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2018, 08:20:53 pm »

The surround when you're editing makes a big difference too. Check Simon's post re Kramer's video a few posts back. Also, see this:

http://scanline.ca/ciecam02/

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BobShaw

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2018, 10:03:02 pm »

That 'feature' if I can be so kind, doesn't really work!
The settings for both cd/m^2 and backlight color temp is a trial and error process.
Well thanks, but it works for me.
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aderickson

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2018, 08:28:52 pm »

As a mere hobbyist who prints just to hang in his own home and whose home is lit with highly variable lighting, I find I have to first determine where the print is going to hang and then adjust the print brightness specifically for that location. If you have a dedicated gallery with optimal lighting, well then I envy you.

Allan
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digitaldog

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2018, 08:35:17 pm »

As a mere hobbyist who prints just to hang in his own home and whose home is lit with highly variable lighting, I find I have to first determine where the print is going to hang and then adjust the print brightness specifically for that location. If you have a dedicated gallery with optimal lighting, well then I envy you.
In terms of calibration, all you need to worry about is a screen to print match. You want a match! You want to edit without a surprise. Unless the print viewing conditions there are off the charts, and, unless you then hang the print in a condition that's off the charts, you'll be fine.
Artists have been making art that is seen in differing conditions for a very, very long time. Only recently, with the advent of displays and prints, where we edit on the display then make the prints, have we heard complaints of 'prints being too dark'. They can be but the issue is a disconnect between display and print. If the display is vastly brighter than a print, the print appears 'too dark' but it may not be.
The best print ever made will look too dark if you light it with a 5watt nightlight bulb. Don't do that!
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David Eckels

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2018, 10:15:10 am »

Tony Kuyper has an article on Softening Contrast, Balancing Light that is a propos of this thread. I read it yesterday and applied the teaching to a particularly dark print that was giving me fits and achieved a print with very acceptable results. Don't know how generalizable it might be, but worth a try. I applied this action after I had finished PP on the image as the final step before printing; without doing this, the blacks were completely blocked.

stockjock

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2018, 02:32:09 pm »

You have gotten lots of great responses here.  I will just add that I have found that editing prints when I have the lights in my office too dim is the single biggest factor in my workflow when it comes to discrepancies between how I perceive the print and the monitor.  Editing when I have the lights too dim makes the monitor look too bright.  That is especially true since some monitors can't be set to a low enough luminance for a darkened room.  Also, you need to view the prints with the proper illumination.  Most workflows inherently assume the hanging print will be well lit.  If that isn't the case you are going to have to brighten the print up quite a bit but then it won't look right when it is properly lit.
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BobShaw

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2018, 03:07:16 am »

You have gotten lots of great responses here.  I will just add that I have found that editing prints when I have the lights in my office too dim is the single biggest factor in my workflow when it comes to discrepancies between how I perceive the print and the monitor.  Editing when I have the lights too dim makes the monitor look too bright.  That is especially true since some monitors can't be set to a low enough luminance for a darkened room.  Also, you need to view the prints with the proper illumination.  Most workflows inherently assume the hanging print will be well lit.  If that isn't the case you are going to have to brighten the print up quite a bit but then it won't look right when it is properly lit.
If the monitor looks too bright in a dim room then it is too bright. My monitor looks the same brightness as the wall behind it.
People bag the iMac but I am sitting here with an iMac side by side an Eizo and will happily use the iMac.
It is currently at 80cd and there are 4 darker full settings. The darkest one is virtually unreadable.
If you can't turn the brightness down then throw it away or give to the kids for games.

I (surprisingly) find myself agreeing with Rodney when he says that artists have been doing this stuff for centuries and never worried about where a pic will hang. That is the buyers problem. You don't print it bright to compensate for a dark room. What if the room was completely dark? Maybe print in phosphorus ?
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digitaldog

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2018, 10:30:51 am »

I (surprisingly) find myself agreeing with Rodney when he says that artists have been doing this stuff for centuries and never worried about where a pic will hang.
I'm not surprised.  :o
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BobShaw

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2018, 07:57:13 pm »

I'm not surprised.  :o
Sorry, I meant Andrew.
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Alan Klein

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Re: judging brightness before printing
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2018, 12:02:18 am »

 Do you start editing in proof mode or do you do all adjustments first and then tweak in proof mode at the end?

Also,  cam someone explain using proof mode vs. lowering the overall brightness to let's say 80cd?  How do they relate to ones another?
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