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Author Topic: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"  (Read 20366 times)

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #120 on: March 14, 2018, 04:06:55 AM »

Quote from: Slobodan Blagojevic
    Outbursts of emotional hostility from progressive activists ... have come to be known as getting ‘triggered.’ This term originally applied to sufferers of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, but activists have adopted it to describe the anxiety and discomfort they experience when they are exposed to views with which they disagree.

Yes, right wing activists don't get triggered ;)  They only drive cars into their opponents  >:(


And for Russ: Another example of extreme conservative violence

But as I said earlier this is all besides the point, you can nitpick about details all you want, for me the point is that agressive and sometimes illegal activities to stop "the other side" is happening on all sides of the spectrum and is equally bad.

I already said I was leaving this thread yesterday, but I couldn't resist the urge to react one more time. I hope I can keep my promise now :)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 04:10:56 AM by pegelli »
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Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #121 on: March 14, 2018, 05:10:17 AM »

The massive flaw - possibly on both sides of the spectrum, insofar as it might be assumed to have but two sides - is this: in the graphic illustrations used to "prove" extremist violence as pertaining more to this or to the other party, the people shown are ever the same collection of losers always found at the bottom of the socio-economic pile, regardless of the name of the political party they think represents them, when in truth, they are totally disenfranchised by their own inability to make a reasonable way in life.

These people are not about political parties, they are about hopelessness and nothing left to lose. I would also imagine that there will be a large behavioural influence due to drugs of various types.

Come to think of it, they repesent a perfect recruiting ground for any form of politics or religion that promises them release from themselves and the place they find themselves, regardless of how impossible or at least unlikely, such an escape can ever be. The best way to attain that hold over such people is by transferring blame for the condition onto other shoulders than their own; a policy which, surprisingly often finds support in the ranks of those better-offs who suffer from some sort of misplaced guilt due to their own better progress in life.

On every possible count, there will never be equality, if only because of the huge differences between people, not only due to money but to intelligence, opportunity and desire, even amongst those in broadly similar circumstances. It would be interesting to do a survey of all the kids we knew at school, who were in the top grades then: where are they today, who got rich and who made a total fuck-up of their opportunities. I bet you they did not all end up living the expected dream, driving the new BMW or anything similar. Far from depending 100% on the starting line alone, the final outcome depends almost totally on the runner.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #122 on: March 14, 2018, 07:14:58 AM »

Looking at the first case...

"He noted that among the more than 700 comments on Martin's Facebook post are attacks against him, including several who expressed a desire to punch him in the face. He called on Martin to urge his followers to cease such attacks, including calls for his termination,"

So threats to his person, to his job, plus some pretty derogatory language.

Golly!!! That must have been really scary for him. Nasty comments on Facebook! And derogatory language? Good grief!

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #123 on: March 14, 2018, 07:18:55 AM »

And the second..

"We worried about safety of students, and about perhaps having a guest on campus not be treated right,” Long said.

“I hope that our civic discourse here would be respectful to all persons in the future. I felt the behaviors in some of the messages to me were not respectful.”

Even worse!!! Disrespectful behavior in messages? What a terrifying thing!!! Poor soul.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #124 on: March 14, 2018, 07:20:49 AM »

The third does not mention physical violence directly, but did involve shouting the speaker down (so denying him free speech) simply because he wasn't using English and would seem to have been raucous enough to justify bringing in the police to keep order.

Well, if there's shouting, that's probably at least the equivalent of physical violence. Poor soul.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #125 on: March 14, 2018, 08:20:51 AM »

The massive flaw - possibly on both sides of the spectrum, insofar as it might be assumed to have but two sides - is this: in the graphic illustrations used to "prove" extremist violence as pertaining more to this or to the other party, the people shown are ever the same collection of losers always found at the bottom of the socio-economic pile, regardless of the name of the political party they think represents them, when in truth, they are totally disenfranchised by their own inability to make a reasonable way in life.

These people are not about political parties, they are about hopelessness and nothing left to lose. I would also imagine that there will be a large behavioural influence due to drugs of various types.

Come to think of it, they repesent a perfect recruiting ground for any form of politics or religion that promises them release from themselves and the place they find themselves, regardless of how impossible or at least unlikely, such an escape can ever be. The best way to attain that hold over such people is by transferring blame for the condition onto other shoulders than their own; a policy which, surprisingly often finds support in the ranks of those better-offs who suffer from some sort of misplaced guilt due to their own better progress in life.

On every possible count, there will never be equality, if only because of the huge differences between people, not only due to money but to intelligence, opportunity and desire, even amongst those in broadly similar circumstances. It would be interesting to do a survey of all the kids we knew at school, who were in the top grades then: where are they today, who got rich and who made a total fuck-up of their opportunities. I bet you they did not all end up living the expected dream, driving the new BMW or anything similar. Far from depending 100% on the starting line alone, the final outcome depends almost totally on the runner.


On here and on previous pages, there has been talk about equality, but no one seems to make the distinction between equality of opportunity and equality of result. They're not the same thing, it's useful to make the distinction.

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pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #126 on: March 14, 2018, 08:31:43 AM »

Well, if there's shouting, that's probably at least the equivalent of physical violence. Poor soul.
Well, exactly the same happened during you pet case of C.A. Murray speaking at the Univ. of Michigan.
So I guess that wasn't too bad either. I think the scratch on his soul will have healed by now.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 08:36:02 AM by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #127 on: March 14, 2018, 08:49:53 AM »

I don't know where you get your news, Pieter, but I think I can guess. There was more than shouting in that situation. There were threats of physical violence. There's a difference.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #128 on: March 14, 2018, 09:12:59 AM »

And for Russ: Another example of extreme conservative violence

Extreme conservative violence? The guy was a nut. The only reason he wasn't confined in a mental institution is that at the end of last century, and at the behest of the left, we "deinstitutionalized" people who'd have been better off confined. Same problem that led to the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting. The guy was a nut. The cops knew he was a nut. The feds knew he was a nut. The school management knew he was a nut. But now, instead of confinement in an institution he's gonna face the death penalty. Less than a year ago we had the Pulse shooting: another unconfined crazy.

Now, I understand that left-wingers who shout and threaten at events like a lecture by Ben Shapiro also have mental problems, but so far they haven't risen to the level that would require institutionalization. They're working on it, though.

James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #129 on: March 14, 2018, 09:35:00 AM »

Extreme conservative violence? The guy was a nut. The only reason he wasn't confined in a mental institution is that at the end of last century, and at the behest of the left, we "deinstitutionalized" people who'd have been better off confined. Same problem that led to the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting. The guy was a nut. The cops knew he was a nut. The feds knew he was a nut. The school management knew he was a nut. But now, instead of confinement in an institution he's gonna face the death penalty. Less than a year ago we had the Pulse shooting: another unconfined crazy.

Now, I understand that left-wingers who shout and threaten at events like a lecture by Ben Shapiro also have mental problems, but so far they haven't risen to the level that would require institutionalization. They're working on it, though.

Hey Russ?  Just admit you're wrong and move along. We all have to at some point, and today's your day! 

And for the future, you could try to make it a point to post/discuss without throwing sideways insults at everyone who disagrees with you. Just a little helpful advice.   

Thanks for your attention :) You're dismissed. 
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RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #130 on: March 14, 2018, 09:43:25 AM »

Thanks for the consideration, James. And that's a really well-argued answer to the questions raised in the thread: just "move along." Fits right in with the arguments I see on the other side of the discussion.

James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #131 on: March 14, 2018, 10:40:14 AM »

Thanks for the consideration, James. And that's a really well-argued answer to the questions raised in the thread: just "move along." Fits right in with the arguments I see on the other side of the discussion.

Oh, I already made my well reasoned arguments.  I cited studies, linked to incidents that fit your requests and so on.  I showed you aggregated data that indicates (or at least argues) that on the whole, the premise of this thread is incorrect.  I provided a link to a database showing speech intimidation on both sides of the aisle, and hey, I even admitted  that there's been a documented imbalance (on campuses at least) over the last year or two.

Others asked why you restrict your definition of "violence" to college campuses where a right-leaning speaker is harassed, when right-wing violence is also occurring in the world around us. Many other people saw these points, and responded either with counterpoints, agreement, or additions.  You simply chose to insult those people, their sources (while claiming Breitbart no less), or changed the terms of your conditions, or made excuses for those committing such acts from the right, while generalizing about those committing these acts from the left.

Besides, it's not like this is an isolated case with you - there's a definite pattern.  Heck, Russ, you can't even comment on *photographs* without throwing sidelong insults at the other members of Lula regarding how they or their subject matter don't meet your standards of worthiness, even in cases where that's pretty much a total non sequitur.

So pot, meet kettle. 

Now Russ, bear in mind that I'd never say that you should lose your right to express your opinion, here or anywhere else.  That's one area where you, I, Slobodan and some others agree 100%  I'm merely suggesting that if someone is unwilling to learn or make an honest exchange of information, they might better serve the community by keeping quiet and spending a little time in self-reflection.

I learn something pretty much every day. Do you?

Really though - go back, look at what you've written here and elsewhere.  Think about whether or not you treat your fellow contributors here with respect. Especially those that disagree with you.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 11:04:55 AM by James Clark »
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Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #132 on: March 14, 2018, 11:06:28 AM »


On here and on previous pages, there has been talk about equality, but no one seems to make the distinction between equality of opportunity and equality of result. They're not the same thing, it's useful to make the distinction.

Right, Robert, and the reason is obvious: if you are willing to accept that equal opportunity does not lead to equal result, you are forced to accept that all people are not equal, which should really be obvious before any argument on that score even begins.

Frankly, I think it far more desirable to be a little odd, a misfit, even, than to fit perfectly and seamlessly into some mundane, stereotypical mould that garners peer approval for conformity.

However, such a concept does not a happy leftie make: he knows that tall poppies have but one purpose in life, and that is to get chopped down to size.

Far better to do as I am about to do: go feed that old white mare down the road a couple of carrots!

;-)

Rob
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:59:31 PM by Rob C »
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pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2018, 11:35:52 AM »

I don't know where you get your news, Pieter, but I think I can guess. There was more than shouting in that situation. There were threats of physical violence. There's a difference.
Whew threats of physical violence, you make me shake. And there were none in the three aggression cases you belittled? Oops, do I smell a double standard here?
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pieter, aka pegelli

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2018, 11:48:25 AM »

Oh, I already made my well reasoned arguments.  I cited studies, linked to incidents that fit your requests and so on.  I showed you aggregated data that indicates (or at least argues) that on the whole, the premise of this thread is incorrect.  I provided a link to a database showing speech intimidation on both sides of the aisle, and hey, I even admitted  that there's been a documented imbalance (on campuses at least) over the last year or two.

Others asked why you restrict your definition of "violence" to college campuses where a right-leaning speaker is harassed, when right-wing violence is also occurring in the world around us. Many other people saw these points, and responded either with counterpoints, agreement, or additions.  You simply chose to insult those people, their sources (while claiming Breitbart no less), or changed the terms of your conditions, or made excuses for those committing such acts from the right, while generalizing about those committing these acts from the left.

Besides, it's not like this is an isolated case with you - there's a definite pattern.  Heck, Russ, you can't even comment on *photographs* without throwing sidelong insults at the other members of Lula regarding how they or their subject matter don't meet your standards of worthiness, even in cases where that's pretty much a total non sequitur.

So pot, meet kettle. 

Now Russ, bear in mind that I'd never say that you should lose your right to express your opinion, here or anywhere else.  That's one area where you, I, Slobodan and some others agree 100%  I'm merely suggesting that if someone is unwilling to learn or make an honest exchange of information, they might better serve the community by keeping quiet and spending a little time in self-reflection.

I learn something pretty much every day. Do you?

Really though - go back, look at what you've written here and elsewhere.  Think about whether or not you treat your fellow contributors here with respect. Especially those that disagree with you.

Thanks, James. That sounds like a well-reasoned argument. And "studies" certainly tell us what's going on. After all, figures don't lie. (Which ignores the fact that liars figure.)

But let me go on to the crux. Why do I restrict my definition of "violence" to campuses where what you consider to be "right-leaning" speakers are harassed?

I'll be 88 on Friday, and I've watched the whole thing unfold. I think the main problem with our society nowadays is our universities. They were taken over in the sixties by left-leaning -- I'm tempted to call them "crazies," but I don't want to argue about that. Many of them were hippies, and a few were people who'd not only disrupted our society, but were criminals who'd been let off the hook.

When I was in high school we had rifle teams. Many people owned firearms, but shootings -- especially mass shootings -- were so rare they almost were nonexistent. Near the end of the century I watched the "deinstitutionalization" of mental misfits. I've told the story of the poor woman in Colorado Springs who used to spend her days wandering around town pulling her wheeled suitcase, sitting most of the day slouched on a bench, depending on a couple local restaurants' largess for food. There were plenty of others in the town, like the poor gap-toothed drifter who saw my camera, came up to me and said, "Take my picture," and when I gave him a print of it about a week later broke into tears and said, "That's the first time somebody's taken my picture in twenty years."

Now, these people were -- at least at the moment -- harmless, but needed to be out of society and in a place where they could be cared for and watched, not only for their own good but for the safety of society at large. But it isn't going to happen, and the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting is a direct result of our unwillingness to deal with the problem.

What happened? The people who went to war in WW II grew up in a world scarred by the Great Depression. When the war was over and they settled down again, they swore their kids never would have to face the kinds of hardships they'd faced, so they supported those kids well beyond the time when they should have been out of the house, and they made sure gathering places like schools were "gun free zones." They did their best to remove any irritants or obstacles the kids might face. The result was what we called the "boomers." The boomers carried the idea that kids shouldn't have to face life head-on far beyond where their parents had carried it.

So now we have a couple generations that aren't willing or able to face the world as it is. Roughly half of the group we call millennials believe socialism is better than capitalism, though even a simple, quick examination of history refutes that idea. Sure, capitalism has its problems. but to paraphrase Churchill: capitalism is the worst of all economic systems, except for all the rest.

The bottom line?  Our universities have become indoctrination engines for doctrines that eventually will destroy the West. The fact that a bunch of kids and their "professors" can't listen to a point of view different from the thrust of their indoctrination will, eventually, be catastrophic for our society. If you want to see how that plays out, check the history of the Inquisition. See any parallels? If you don't, you're part of the problem.

I have no idea how old you are James. N/A doesn't tell me much. Same thing with your location. If I knew whether "Local Time" means local for you or local for me I might be able to guess. But why should I have to do that. In the end, all I have is your collection of assertions and references to "studies." That doesn't cut it.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2018, 11:54:36 AM »

Whew threats of physical violence, you make me shake. And there were none in the three aggression cases you belittled? Oops, do I smell a double standard here?

You really need to go back and reread the posts, Pieter. One was about "attacks on Facebook." One was about "disrespectful messages," and one was about "shouting." That may be a double standard for you, but none of the three make me shake in my boots.

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2018, 12:10:44 PM »

You really need to go back and reread the posts, Pieter. One was about "attacks on Facebook." One was about "disrespectful messages," and one was about "shouting." That may be a double standard for you, but none of the three make me shake in my boots.
Russ, Before I responded to you I've read several reports about that meeting (from different directions, left and right) and while there was significant yelling at the start no one mentioned physical violence or a threat thereof. To the contrary, no arrests were made and Murray could finish his speech. Sound OK to me and not much different from the other cases James brought. So you're either overplaying the treatment Murray got or underplaying these other reports.

Also doing this research I found a very interesting quote from Murray:

"We've got to stop treating people as groups," he later added. "You deal with people as individuals and not as members of groups. Because insofar as you deal with people as members of groups, as we have increasingly been doing, then everybody gets inflamed for any perceived problem that the group has."

Since you seem to like him maybe you should follow his advice and stop putting all liberals/progressives/lefties in one evil group. You are clearly inflamed by what a few of them did and may be even rightfully so, but to add to that I think there are many that are OK and there are many nutcases on the right as well that we should condemn for their actions (just like the nutcases on the left).

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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2018, 12:21:07 PM »

The guy was a nut.
And a conservative, and it's only one example of the violence extreme conservatives conflicted upon abortion clinics. So stop nitpicking one example and look at the big picture, which is that illegal actions to make your point come from all sides of the spectrum and are not confined to only the left.
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pieter, aka pegelli

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2018, 12:26:49 PM »

Russ, Before I responded to you I've read several reports about that meeting (from different directions, left and right) and while there was significant yelling at the start no one mentioned physical violence or a threat thereof. To the contrary, no arrests were made and Murray could finish his speech. Sound OK to me and not much different from the other cases James brought. So you're either overplaying the treatment Murray got or underplaying these other reports.

Also doing this research I found a very interesting quote from Murray:

"We've got to stop treating people as groups," he later added. "You deal with people as individuals and not as members of groups. Because insofar as you deal with people as members of groups, as we have increasingly been doing, then everybody gets inflamed for any perceived problem that the group has."

Since you seem to like him maybe you should follow his advice and stop putting all liberals/progressives/lefties in one evil group. You are clearly inflamed by what a few of them did and may be even rightfully so, but to add to that I think there are many that are OK and there are many nutcases on the right as well that we should condemn for their actions (just like the nutcases on the left).

Absolutely, Pieter. I agree with Murray's comment completely. I should also tell you that I have two daughters-in-law and a number of friends who are left, far left, or in some cases very far left. We get along well, drink Perfect Manhattans together, discuss all sorts of things, and stay strictly away from politics.

I can't really argue about whether or not there were threats of violence at Murray's lecture. I wasn't there, and I've read conflicting reports. But, bottom line, why should there have been shouting? Murray was there to make a speech. If you didn't want to listen to the speech, all you had to do was stay away. It's pretty obvious that the shouting was orchestrated, and was intended to shut him up.

What really bothers me is the fact that university management in many cases is part of the problem. Left-wing professors object and complain and management caves. Students complain because that's what they've been taught to do. It's time to hire some retired military officers to run our universities and shut down the crap.

In the end I stand by what I just told James. What scares me most is that we depend on universities to give us our successors -- educated and ready to face life as it actually is, not as professors feel it ought to be. Unless these kids can hear all sides of the relevant arguments Western society is going to be in deep, deep trouble 

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2018, 12:29:38 PM »

And a conservative, and it's only one example of the violence extreme conservatives conflicted upon abortion clinics. So stop nitpicking one example and look at the big picture, which is that illegal actions to make your point come from all sides of the spectrum and are not confined to only the left.

Actually, I don't think you can say nuts are conservatives or liberals. They're just nuts.
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