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Author Topic: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"  (Read 52959 times)

James Clark

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2018, 12:50:34 pm »

Thanks, James. That sounds like a well-reasoned argument. And "studies" certainly tell us what's going on. After all, figures don't lie. (Which ignores the fact that liars figure.)

But let me go on to the crux. Why do I restrict my definition of "violence" to campuses where what you consider to be "right-leaning" speakers are harassed?

I'll be 88 on Friday, and I've watched the whole thing unfold. I think the main problem with our society nowadays is our universities. They were taken over in the sixties by left-leaning -- I'm tempted to call them "crazies," but I don't want to argue about that. Many of them were hippies, and a few were people who'd not only disrupted our society, but were criminals who'd been let off the hook.

When I was in high school we had rifle teams. Many people owned firearms, but shootings -- especially mass shootings -- were so rare they almost were nonexistent. Near the end of the century I watched the "deinstitutionalization" of mental misfits. I've told the story of the poor woman in Colorado Springs who used to spend her days wandering around town pulling her wheeled suitcase, sitting most of the day slouched on a bench, depending on a couple local restaurants' largess for food. There were plenty of others in the town, like the poor gap-toothed drifter who saw my camera, came up to me and said, "Take my picture," and when I gave him a print of it about a week later broke into tears and said, "That's the first time somebody's taken my picture in twenty years."

Now, these people were -- at least at the moment -- harmless, but needed to be out of society and in a place where they could be cared for and watched, not only for their own good but for the safety of society at large. But it isn't going to happen, and the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting is a direct result of our unwillingness to deal with the problem.

What happened? The people who went to war in WW II grew up in a world scarred by the Great Depression. When the war was over and they settled down again, they swore their kids never would have to face the kinds of hardships they'd faced, so they supported those kids well beyond the time when they should have been out of the house, and they made sure gathering places like schools were "gun free zones." They did their best to remove any irritants or obstacles the kids might face. The result was what we called the "boomers." The boomers carried the idea that kids shouldn't have to face life head-on far beyond where their parents had carried it.

So now we have a couple generations that aren't willing or able to face the world as it is. Roughly half of the group we call millennials believe socialism is better than capitalism, though even a simple, quick examination of history refutes that idea. Sure, capitalism has its problems. but to paraphrase Churchill: capitalism is the worst of all economic systems, except for all the rest.

The bottom line?  Our universities have become indoctrination engines for doctrines that eventually will destroy the West. The fact that a bunch of kids and their "professors" can't listen to a point of view different from the thrust of their indoctrination will, eventually, be catastrophic for our society. If you want to see how that plays out, check the history of the Inquisition. See any parallels? If you don't, you're part of the problem.

I have no idea how old you are James. N/A doesn't tell me much. Same thing with your location. If I knew whether "Local Time" means local for you or local for me I might be able to guess. But why should I have to do that. In the end, all I have is your collection of assertions and references to "studies." That doesn't cut it.

Thank you Russ - I appreciate the reply.  I have some thoughts that I will be happy to share a bit later today when I have more time, as I do owe you the courtesy of a thought out reply like the one you've just provided to me.  You'll not be surprised that I disagree with much of what you just wrote.  You may be more surprised to find that I agree with some of it as well...

Cheers.
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pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2018, 01:11:29 pm »

I can't really argue about whether or not there were threats of violence at Murray's lecture. I wasn't there, and I've read conflicting reports. But, bottom line, why should there have been shouting? Murray was there to make a speech. If you didn't want to listen to the speech, all you had to do was stay away. It's pretty obvious that the shouting was orchestrated, and was intended to shut him up.
I fully agree and never denied any of these shoutings are utter crap, just like all the utter crap in the three cases James brought. And I'm sure we can find many other cases of both extreme progressives and extreme conservatives trying to shout down (either at the venue or on social media leading up to the event) speeches they don't want to hear. Violent or non-violent, it just goes against the quest for free speech from any direction.

And while I don't share your conern regarding US universities I do know that many have advisory boards made up of people who graduated there. So rather than complaining and worrying you can do something to move it in the direction you want them to go, muster enough support of former classmates (and years before/after) who share you concern and start talking and persuading. That energy is probably better spent then postinge here on LuLa. But my gut feel is also that you will find then that the situation is not as bad as you thought.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2018, 02:41:51 pm »

... advisory boards made up of people who graduated there. So rather than complaining and worrying you can do something to move it in the direction you want them to go, muster enough support of former classmates (and years before/after) who share you concern and start talking and persuading...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html

"Long After Protests, Students Shun the University of Missouri"

Quote
Freshman enrollment at the Columbia campus, the system’s flagship, has fallen by more than 35 percent in the two years since.

Quote
... the university is temporarily closing seven dormitories and cutting more than 400 positions,

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2018, 03:05:22 pm »

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html

"Long After Protests, Students Shun the University of Missouri"
Russ graduated from the University of Michigan, not the University of Missouri.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2018, 03:09:56 pm »

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html

"Long After Protests, Students Shun the University of Missouri"

Tried to check it out, Slobodan, but they want me to subscribe! As everyone and his hush puppy knows, subscription is the door to trouble.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #145 on: March 14, 2018, 03:37:03 pm »

Tried to check it out, Slobodan, but they want me to subscribe! As everyone and his hush puppy knows, subscription is the door to trouble.

I do not know why Rob, they did not asked me to subscribe (and I am not already their subscriber). I will send you a pdf of the article via email.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #146 on: March 14, 2018, 05:39:23 pm »

Let me ask you guys something. Do you believe the United States is, for the moment at least, providing stability for the free world, which includes not only what we know as the West, but also free Asian nations such as Japan, Thailand and Taiwan, as well as Israel in the Middle East? Let's call that collection the free world.

I don't want to get too carried away with the comparison, but I see the US at the moment providing approximately the same kind of anchor for the free world that Britain provided for the West until WW II.

The US's current situation in world affairs devolves from its ability during WW II to provide the Allies with massive amounts of materiel that allowed us to win that war and from its ability after the war to provide immense financial and material assistance for the reconstruction of Europe and Asia. The US then went on, for the next seventy some years to provide defense for the free world against the Soviet Union and its minions. It's still doing that. Most NATO nations provide only a fraction of the contributions to their defense they agreed to when NATO was formed. The US constantly makes up the difference.

But at the same time I see the ability of the US to continue as the stabilizer for the free world fraying at the edges as we take on more debt, let our military degenerate as a result of political pressure from the left, and become more and more apathetic about, and even resistant to the demands made upon us for our own defense.

Nothing lasts forever, and the US isn't going to last forever, any more than Britain or Rome or Byzantium did. And that's a scary thought, or at least it should be if you're one of the societies depending on the US for your defense.

If your answer to my first question was "yes," then you ought to be concerned by what's going on with US education, starting in grade school and running all the way through the universities. Our kids are being taught pacifism and their need for and right to safe spaces. A large number of our universities won't even allow ROTC on campus.

I guess my final question is, if you're concerned about any of this why aren't you concerned when conservatives -- the people willing to protect you -- are shouted down and denigrated at our universities?

In the end, I'm convinced we've reached the point where it's going to take a wakeup call, something like a Great Depression or a World War (hopefully without nukes) to change what's gradually happening to the US. The question then will be whether or not the US can survive. If it doesn't, the free world will go down with it.

I'm 88, so I'll have no personal involvement in what's coming, but I have a flock of grandkids and great-grands. I worry about them. On the other hand, I know it'll be their problem. Not mine, just as Korea and Vietnam were mine. But I hope they'll have help.
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Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #147 on: March 14, 2018, 06:21:46 pm »

In a few basic points:

1. The US is a major contributor, but not the sole provider

2. The nonsense about NATO funding has been debunked so many times it's ridiculous

3. A changed paradigm that moves away from peace through superior firepower would be better (and we've been heading that way generally, although I see some hurdles at the moment)

4. The biggest threat I see is from the US because it might fracture because you have hyperpartisanship running rampant and your policies are driven by soundbite-sized dogma from one side or the other of the political fence, focused on immediate feedback and not long term policy (China, as always, are the masters of the long game, and Putin ain't bad either)

5. The fact that you see a particular side of politics as the security for the future as opposed to looking at genuine, long-term, deep policies of a nation as a whole, reflects 4 above and remains an expression of extremism which is the single biggest threat globally
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Phil Brown

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #148 on: March 14, 2018, 07:56:53 pm »

Hi Phil.

1. I didn't say it was the sole provider. I said it's what holds it all together.

2. Give me a valid example of a "debunking."

3. Exactly what I'm talking about. In war there's no getting away from superior firepower. You're illustrating my point.

4. If you believe that, you don't understand the US.

5. That's almost exactly what Churchill's opponents were saying prior to WW II.
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Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #149 on: March 14, 2018, 10:36:46 pm »

Hi Russ,

1. That was the implication of the way you phrased it, intended or not.  I'd say it's not even holding it all together, but it remains a major contributor.  The end of the cold war changed the balance.

2. There are literally dozens in threads throughout this forum, but let's start with the fact that the agreed targets weren't there when NATO was setup (which you said, perhaps just a phrasing error?), the targets have not yet come to their deadline, and the nonsense about the US outspending vastly looks at total US expenditure instead of just US NATO expenditure.

3. That's not true.  Smart, better, resources, etc. all come into it, plus we're not in a shooting war and the best strategy avoids one (take Reagan's move to bankrupt the USSR through an arms race).

4. I understand the US quite well, I just have a different perspective and the problem is you're not at all open to consideration that you might not be 100% correct.  Makes discussion difficult if not impossible.

5. You're entirely missing the point or being deliberately obtuse and misleading.  The situations are not comparable, I'm in no way apologising for anyone/thing, I'm pointing out that you are basing "survival" (seems like the most apt term for what you seem to be trying to convey) on ideology alone.
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Phil Brown

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #150 on: March 15, 2018, 03:29:21 am »

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html

"Long After Protests, Students Shun the University of Missouri"
It seems that the title and the quotes suggest that the current low enrollments are caused by the student protests and ousting the president of the University.

But I think that overlooks what I think is another important factor, which is that before these protests the university was the scene of several racial incidents, with online threats against black students and faculty, disruption of performance rehearsals by African Americans and which finally lead to a real disgusting incident of a swastika had been smeared in feces on a dormitory bathroom at Missouri (these facts can all be found in the article or following one link).

Obviously we don't know what goes on in the minds of the hard working middle class parents and to-be students not enrolling at the University of Missouri but my gut feel says it's not only the student protests and and ousting of the president. 
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 03:36:53 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #151 on: March 15, 2018, 03:34:29 am »

Let me ask you guys something. Do you believe the United States is, for the moment at least, providing stability for the free world, which includes not only what we know as the West, but also free Asian nations such as Japan, Thailand and Taiwan, as well as Israel in the Middle East? Let's call that collection the free world.

I don't want to get too carried away with the comparison, but I see the US at the moment providing approximately the same kind of anchor for the free world that Britain provided for the West until WW II.

The US's current situation in world affairs devolves from its ability during WW II to provide the Allies with massive amounts of materiel that allowed us to win that war and from its ability after the war to provide immense financial and material assistance for the reconstruction of Europe and Asia. The US then went on, for the next seventy some years to provide defense for the free world against the Soviet Union and its minions. It's still doing that. Most NATO nations provide only a fraction of the contributions to their defense they agreed to when NATO was formed. The US constantly makes up the difference.

But at the same time I see the ability of the US to continue as the stabilizer for the free world fraying at the edges as we take on more debt, let our military degenerate as a result of political pressure from the left, and become more and more apathetic about, and even resistant to the demands made upon us for our own defense.

Nothing lasts forever, and the US isn't going to last forever, any more than Britain or Rome or Byzantium did. And that's a scary thought, or at least it should be if you're one of the societies depending on the US for your defense.

If your answer to my first question was "yes," then you ought to be concerned by what's going on with US education, starting in grade school and running all the way through the universities. Our kids are being taught pacifism and their need for and right to safe spaces. A large number of our universities won't even allow ROTC on campus.

I guess my final question is, if you're concerned about any of this why aren't you concerned when conservatives -- the people willing to protect you -- are shouted down and denigrated at our universities?

In the end, I'm convinced we've reached the point where it's going to take a wakeup call, something like a Great Depression or a World War (hopefully without nukes) to change what's gradually happening to the US. The question then will be whether or not the US can survive. If it doesn't, the free world will go down with it.

I'm 88, so I'll have no personal involvement in what's coming, but I have a flock of grandkids and great-grands. I worry about them. On the other hand, I know it'll be their problem. Not mine, just as Korea and Vietnam were mine. But I hope they'll have help.
Russ, this is quite far away from this discussion, so why don't you start a new thread asking this question. Now two almost unrelated discussions will start running together and will become very hard to follow.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #152 on: March 15, 2018, 05:49:58 am »

I do not know why Rob, they did not asked me to subscribe (and I am not already their subscriber). I will send you a pdf of the article via email.


Thanks for the pdf - I am quite impressed with the issue of the smeared bathroom: could these folks be learning from the Irish experience in H Block?

I wonder if the medium was produced on demand, or imported prior to the event. Either way, a bit of a mess absolutely guaranteed to raise a stink.

Oh well, students will apparently be students. Just another reason for avoiding the gregarious set. You know, after nine years of widowerhood, casual conversations and random coffees in various bars with expats in similar circumstances or just other forms of cultural isolation, the impression grows that isolation is not that bad an alternative to artificial, superficial bondings. Those cost time, nervous tension, possible unwanted obligations and money (sometimes both connected), whereas freedom from them provides time to waste in less stressful directions such as looking at pictures, listening to music and making the occasional post to some website or other. I suppose the beauty of Internet conversation is that you can do it at your own convenience and speed.

I really think that the single, most important part of such conversation has to be this: express only what one would say directly to another in a personal, direct conversation. That way, you can probably remain true to your own nature and conserve the mutual respect that conversation should entail.

Failing the above, one may as well just go for a walk and/or adopt a pet for which one has to bear no direct reponsibility. But beware: even that can grow its own sense of obligation, as I discovered with the white mare: before we met I never, ever, found myself wandering about with a couple of carrots in a bag.

RSL

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #153 on: March 15, 2018, 09:11:00 am »

Russ, this is quite far away from this discussion, so why don't you start a new thread asking this question. Now two almost unrelated discussions will start running together and will become very hard to follow.

What I just posted is far away from "the psychology of progressive hostility," Pieter? I'd say it's pretty much spot on. At the rate it's growing, progressive hostility and the takeover of our education system by progressive hostility is going to be the death of Western civilization. At the moment, any thought that runs counter to the "progressive" agenda is shouted down. History's great thinkers and philosophers are kicked out of "progressive" courses. It comes down to Santayana and "Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it." Progressive hostility turns up its nose at history.

But you've got a point about a new thread. This one has exhausted itself. And I'm tired of it. I'm neither going to start a new thread nor continue with this one. When it come to politics we're all talking past each other. Nobody's going to convince anybody.

Back to photography, which, by the way, you do well. I think photography's something we can talk about and agree on.
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pegelli

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #154 on: March 15, 2018, 09:22:55 am »

But you've got a point about a new thread. This one has exhausted itself. And I'm tired of it. I'm neither going to start a new thread nor continue with this one. When it come to politics we're all talking past each other. Nobody's going to convince anybody.

Back to photography, which, by the way, you do well. I think photography's something we can talk about and agree on.
Russ, I don't think the point of these threads is to convince anybody of something. It's a way among what I would call "photography friends" to exchange ideas that broaden our view. Even though the two of us seldom agree on key political issues I still pick up ideas from you to hone my own ideas about an issue. I think this is always valuable, unless of course one is convinced they are 100% right and have the 20/20 vision already and everybody who doesn't agree with them is stupid.

Thanks for the comment on my photography, which I agree is a much easier topic to discuss and exchange ideas on.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 09:26:35 am by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Rob C

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #155 on: March 15, 2018, 10:13:31 am »

What bemuses me, amongst many other things, of course, is how left-wing thinking becomes known as "progressive". It is, if anything, entirely the opposite of being progressive and smacks to me of old, long-discredited, enforced political cant aimed fairly and squarely at turning this contemporary (and if that's proves too dificult, then the next period of this one) society into a totalitarian dystopia reminiscent of nothing more than what we can see already in the Russia, Cuba and NK of today, where the individual becomes a cypher and only the enslaved survival of the anthill counts.

In the West, it's the deeply established political root of all the nonsense about equality, fairness, entitlement and most of the other theoretically wonderful crap designed to remove personal accountablity from the gamut of the normal expectations of human beings. Succeed in that, and you have reduced mankind to the level of the farm animal which, as the poor old sod ends up in the abattoir, might unexpectedly prove not such a bad thing after all. Should you feel you like the idea of life as a farm aninmal, that is.

Personally, I'd rather keep what freedoms of expression and movement that I still have. Sadly, I have to accept that courtesy Brexit I may soon be losing at least one of those qualities that I currently enjoy.

;-(

Rob

Jim Pascoe

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #156 on: March 15, 2018, 12:07:38 pm »


But you've got a point about a new thread. This one has exhausted itself. And I'm tired of it. I'm neither going to start a new thread nor continue with this one. When it come to politics we're all talking past each other. Nobody's going to convince anybody.

Back to photography, which, by the way, you do well. I think photography's something we can talk about and agree on.

I've only just come to this thread and I've not come here to be convinced of anything.  But I do want to learn, and Russ, even though I often disagree with much in your postings, particularly your strong emphasis on military might and guns to solve the worlds problems, I do enjoy hearing your point of view.  You may be 88 but please do not get tired of discussing politics or presenting your thoughts. 

Jim
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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #157 on: March 15, 2018, 12:31:06 pm »

Thanks, Jim. I'm not going away any time soon. At least I hope I'm not. The reason I emphasize military capability may have something to do with the fact that I've been to war three times and I've seen some demonstrations of how all that works. I am finished with arguing on this thread, though I'll still be watching it.
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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #158 on: March 15, 2018, 12:49:15 pm »

I've only just come to this thread and I've not come here to be convinced of anything.  But I do want to learn, and Russ, even though I often disagree with much in your postings, particularly your strong emphasis on military might and guns to solve the worlds problems, I do enjoy hearing your point of view.  You may be 88 but please do not get tired of discussing politics or presenting your thoughts. 

Jim

I'm not Russ, but I don't see his reasoning goes like that, which I feel suggests an expeditionary approach. The guns and might are more to preserve the peace, to keep crazy dictators at least partially leashed and out of our faces.

You don't manage any of that naked.

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: "The Psychology of Progressive Hostility"
« Reply #159 on: March 15, 2018, 01:32:30 pm »

... I don't think the point of these threads is to convince anybody of something. It's a way among what I would call "photography friends" to exchange ideas that broaden our view...

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