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Author Topic: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?  (Read 13193 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2018, 09:36:36 pm »

I do think Phase is at risk of marginalizing itself into the equivalent of the high end audio companies that sell tube amps for breathtaking prices, justifying it on the basis that it offers the last 1% improvement in audio performance.

That would be really sad because the reality is that they don't actually delivery that additional 1%. The manufacturers focus heavily on letting their customers think they do (thanks the weight, appearance and price of their equipments). ;)

There is a parallel to be made. Often I get more real resolution out of my D850 than I do out of my H6D-100c, simply because the focus is so much more accurate. In fact "often" means "98% of the time" when the subject moves.

This will be the same with mirrorless small MF at 100mp vs real MF at 150mp though an OVF. The real resolution delivered by an accurately focused 100mp sensor will be much higher than that of a softly focused 150mp camera.

A majority of P1 users also own a Sony a7rIII or older and they know full well that the slightest focus mistake turns 100mp into 10mp and results in their 40,000 US$ beast performing worse than a 3,000 US$ Sony.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 05:55:44 am by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2018, 12:35:00 am »

Hi Bernard,

How do you focus?

Magnified live view should be accurate, except for focus shift and it even handles most alignment problems.

I have really found, that achieving critical focus is not an easy task.

Best regards
Erik
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2018, 12:57:39 am »

Hi,

Mirrorless cameras use the sensor for focusing. That eliminates a major source of focusing errors. A correctly implemented AF-system on a mirrorless camera would provide exact focus in the point of focus.

What can be a problem with mirror less is focus shift, when stopping down. Jim Kasson's experiments with different cameras indicate that focus shift is a significant serious problem, but also that at least some mirror less solutions handle it well.

What also matters is that the new lenses for both the GFX and the X1D seem to be seriously good. Regarding the GFX, I have seen a lot of testing from Jim Kasson. Regarding the X1D, Hasselblad is publishing MTF data for their lenses and the MTF data I have seen on the X-lenses lenses is seriously good.

Phase One could send one of their cameras to Jim Kasson for half a year or so... Jim is not a tester, but he is quite passionate about finding out things.

Best regards
Erik


I didn't say SLR's were irrelevant. I do think mirrorless cameras are what is relevant right now and probably increasingly so. But you make some interesting points and in time we shall see.

I am one of those people who shot Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX-680, 4x5 an 10x8 in the film days for the reasons you mention. Big cameras are necessary when they are the only thing that gives you the results you need. I'm also someone who has been renting the XF100 extensively this last year while testing it and waiting to make a decision on replacing my 160. The back and sensor is incredible. I think the camera is good too but it's enormous and there are other alternatives to consider now. If you consider that the camera needs only to be as big as it needs to be then that puts it in to perspective. It's not so much about "fitting it in your pocket" but other things such as flying with it on airplanes.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 01:03:14 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Manoli

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2018, 03:01:14 am »

What can be a problem with mirror less is focus shift, when stopping down.

Just with mirrorless ?
Focus shift is a function of the lens not the camera.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2018, 04:54:02 am »

Bernard is right.

The biggest issue with these cameras is focus. Personally I still prefer using medium format because when it does hit it is a significant bump in IQ. But I agree something like the Nikon D850 is far more effective tool sometimes at this point in time.

Stopping down isn't really solution and even when you do there is a plane of focus that is still obvious. Especially with something like portraits.

A mirrorless with EVF and PDAF is gong to make a world of difference the end.

Also Magnified live view is not a solution either. It's way too slow.

Marketing is a significant factor in the perception of any equipment.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 05:03:02 am by Bo_Dez »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2018, 10:55:37 am »


Phase One could send one of their cameras to Jim Kasson for half a year or so... Jim is not a tester, but he is quite passionate about finding out things.


I have been offered a 100MP P1 camera on loan (but not a six-month loan). I turned it down because I don't test stuff that I don't think I'll use.

Jim

photo570

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2018, 05:46:32 pm »

"are genuinely shocked when they find they can buy a Phase One kit for $10k"

I would love to know what that is? I might even buy one to replace my ageing AptusII back.

Enlighten us please.

Kind regards,
Jason.
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Jason Berge
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henrikfoto

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2018, 06:17:17 pm »

Buy a Fujifilm gfx50s for less than this. Extremely much better than your old back in every way.
If you try them together you will sell your back the same day. 😉 You can even use your old lenses with adapter.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2018, 11:04:18 pm »

Hi,

Yes, of course. But mirrorless systems eliminate pretty much any other cause of missfocus.

Best regards
Erik



Focus shift is a function of the lens not the camera.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

alifatemi

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2018, 09:52:20 am »

The history of photography and the equipment used for it shows an inexorable movement in the development of smaller and lighter cameras for producing the highest quality imagery. The inescapable fact is that nobody WANTS to carry around a kit consisting of an XF an assortment of BR lenses. You would only do it if you NEED to do it in order to achieve the image quality you are after. And with the advent of the X1D and the GFX,  many are deciding that they no longer need to carry a kit of the size and weight of the XF to achieve that image quality. This process will only accelerate when the new versions of the X1D and the GFX appear with the 100mp sensor. I do think Phase is at risk of marginalizing itself into the equivalent of the high end audio companies that sell tube amps for breathtaking prices, justifying it on the basis that it offers the last 1% improvement in audio performance.

Well Sir, you can buy a tube amplifier with just $1000 or $1500 or $2000 or $300,000 but even the most affordable one can give you the kind of sound so musical, you never leave you leather sofa, I guarantee! Try Audio Not Kit One as a start ($1500) + Kef Q350($700) loudspeaker... And I prefer my bulky PhaseOne with even 2 mirrors if possible! Good luck
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narikin

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2018, 10:25:52 am »

There's an easy option for Phase: Release a true FF mirrorless.

A 150Mp FF mirrorless would stand above reduced MF 100Mp offerings by Fuji and Hasselblad, affirm Phases's top-dog status, and make a lot more sense with their lens range, which is optimized for FF 54x40 sensor.

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fredjeang2

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2018, 10:57:08 am »

It is a strange topic. Beyond the general movement of the image industry
That bets for smaller, lighter, and highly capable tools, we could ask themselves
This question: when a camera company like Nikon, Pana, Sony etc...presents
Its brand new small light and ultra performant model...aren't they shooted by
Camera dinausors like Phase One?
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2018, 11:02:05 am »

There's an easy option for Phase: Release a true FF mirrorless.

A 150Mp FF mirrorless would stand above reduced MF 100Mp offerings by Fuji and Hasselblad, affirm Phases's top-dog status, and make a lot more sense with their lens range, which is optimized for FF 54x40 sensor.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hasselblad and Fuji make a 54x40 sensor size mirrorless sooner or later. I wouldn't be that surprised if the lenses already cover this anyway.
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rogerxnz

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #33 on: March 12, 2018, 02:16:15 pm »

Way to go, Dave!

I am amazed that people don't comment more on the disadvantage of buying a mirrorless camera (or any camera) with a sensor built into the body. Doing so, means, if you want to change the body for new features, you have to discard the sensor. You have far more choices if the sensor unit is s separate detachable unit which you can use on different bodies, such as, the A body in your picture and technical cameras and DSLRs.
Roger

I can't see a flapping mirror here
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2018, 03:58:12 pm »

Roger,

What would prevent Hassy/P1 from releasing an EVF for the H7D/XF2?

Piece of cake for Hassy at least, they already have the technology.

They would just need 2 new portait lenses with AF optimized for contrast AF (typically a 110mm f2.0 and a 170mm f2.8)... and they have that tech also.

There is more work to do for P1.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2018, 04:37:11 pm »

Hi,

A mirrorless camera is essentially just a digital back with a viewfinder and a lens mount in front.

With the X1D, the cost of the camera is quite comparable to a digital back and the GFX is cheaper than any non second hand back. The GFX even has a shutter built in!

Best regards
Erik

Way to go, Dave!

I am amazed that people don't comment more on the disadvantage of buying a mirrorless camera (or any camera) with a sensor built into the body. Doing so, means, if you want to change the body for new features, you have to discard the sensor. You have far more choices if the sensor unit is s separate detachable unit which you can use on different bodies, such as, the A body in your picture and technical cameras and DSLRs.
Roger
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2018, 05:14:58 pm »

What would prevent Hassy/P1 from releasing an EVF for the H7D/XF2?

What makes you think it would require an XF2? The XF was a ground-up design with modern technology throughout. They included a ton of connectivity, unannounced components and circuitry that were not used at launch and have used them to increasing effect in Feature Update 1,Feature Update 2,Feature Update 3, and Feature Update 4. They even released a new Autofocus sensor (they use a high-density, ultra-accuracy, dedicated CMOS array rather than legacy line-pair contrast sensors) which XF users could upgrade to, without replacing their body.

The XF was built as a very long lasting platform.

Piece of cake for Hassy at least, they already have the technology.

Hassy does not make the EVF they use in the X1D or own any EVF intellectual property that I'm aware of.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2018, 06:12:43 pm »

What makes you think it would require an XF2? The XF was a ground-up design with modern technology throughout. They included a ton of connectivity, unannounced components and circuitry that were not used at launch and have used them to increasing effect in Feature Update 1,Feature Update 2,Feature Update 3, and Feature Update 4. They even released a new Autofocus sensor (they use a high-density, ultra-accuracy, dedicated CMOS array rather than legacy line-pair contrast sensors) which XF users could upgrade to, without replacing their body.

The XF was built as a very long lasting platform.

Hassy does not make the EVF they use in the X1D or own any EVF intellectual property that I'm aware of.

Indeed, an EVF on top of an XF would work, same thing for an EVF on top of an H6D.

What I meant with Hasselblad having the technology is the electronic platform with the right streaming capability from sensor to EVF, the right cooling for the sensor, the contrast autofocus,...

Cheers,
Bernard

cgarnerhome

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2018, 07:24:43 pm »

I'm obviously old school.  I'm not wild about EVFs even though I own the GFX.  I continue to use my XF100 and much prefer it to my GFX even though it means carrying a much heavier pack.  I'm most interested in quality and I'm comfortable Phase provides what I need.  At the end of the day, I'm betting Phase will continue create products that will be innovative just as all camera companies must do to survive. 

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Phase One in Trouble or Ready to Pivot?
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2018, 08:14:41 pm »

I'm obviously old school.  I'm not wild about EVFs even though I own the GFX.  I continue to use my XF100 and much prefer it to my GFX even though it means carrying a much heavier pack.  I'm most interested in quality and I'm comfortable Phase provides what I need.  At the end of the day, I'm betting Phase will continue create products that will be innovative just as all camera companies must do to survive.

I hate EVFs too... but my view is that today AF on the OVF based MF cameras is a major liability that very seriously affects my ability to tap into the resolution potential of the camera. I am still able to work with it, but an EVF would expand its usage envelope significantly.

Cheers,
Bernard
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