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Author Topic: Does your profiled monitor do this?  (Read 12558 times)

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2018, 06:23:34 pm »

Did I mention this darn thing doesn't even have knobs to control contrast and color temperature? Jeez, even my first TV when I was a kid came with those.

Just checked out the newer IPS displays at Best Buy and they have a beautiful 1920x1018 27" IPS AOC display going for $169 and I'm sure it allows plenty of access to the OSD but you can always return it if it doesn't. Never saw a more neutral looking white display out of the box.

That's where I bought my 27" IPS LG I've been editing 100's of Raws on for the past 5 years. Colomunki Display still renders my vcgt curves close to straight line with slight tweaks to correct for RGB biases throughout the black to white step wedge.
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2018, 07:09:08 pm »

Just checked out the newer IPS displays at Best Buy and they have a beautiful 1920x1018 27" IPS AOC display going for $169 and I'm sure it allows plenty of access to the OSD but you can always return it if it doesn't. Never saw a more neutral looking white display out of the box.

That's where I bought my 27" IPS LG I've been editing 100's of Raws on for the past 5 years. Colomunki Display still renders my vcgt curves close to straight line with slight tweaks to correct for RGB biases throughout the black to white step wedge.

It's both funny and sad that I can even see color shifts on the photo of your LG screen displaying the photo of your step wedge . To think I spent $1500 for this Dell clunker, and they even gave me a fake profile, to boot.   But at least that sRGB profile works better than anything else I've been able to get from the ColorMunki.  And yes, I've tried making profiles at lower luminance settings (as low as 60cd), but still no luck. Strange thing is that when I change the default profiles in Windows from 120cd to 80cd, the brightness of my screen does not change. I thought profiles were suppose to automatically adjust the screen brightness? Probably another glitch.

Next time I buy a monitor, I'll know what to test first. Life is too short to make such costly mistakes.

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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2018, 07:19:02 pm »

Got the same step wedge highlight anomalies in your posted images when I tweaked my CFL Dell 22in. Offset and Gain adjusts accessed through the display's factory set ROM OSD menu I had to go online to find out what button combos brought it up. I first recorded the Offset/Gain RGB numbers as is so if I screwed something up doing this I could go back.

And sure enough after applying the ROM tweaks and profiling with i1Match software/original i1Display colormeter, I got the same step wedge highlight color issues.


Let me get this straight. Are you saying that after tweeking (that is, throwing off on purpose) the manual Gain controls on your monitor, your subsequent profile gave you similar abnormalities as my profiles?  This would suggest that the factory settings on my Dell is poorly tuned. Unfortunately, the only way to fine-tune the gains is through the OSD software, which Dell does not offer. The latest version of the Dell OSD driver only works with Vista and XP. I'm stuck with the factory settings as they exist now, sadly.

But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2018, 07:21:12 pm »

It's both funny and sad that I can even see color shifts on the photo of your LG screen displaying the photo of your step wedge .
Kind of illustrates viewing a photo of a display, converted to sRGB, viewed on the web does't bode well for analysis. I don't think you'd be impressed if I did the same on a much better reference display system; NEC SpectraView PA272W (which you'd love).  ;D
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To think I spent $1500 for this Dell clunker, and they even gave me a fake profile, to boot.   But at least that sRGB profile works better than anything else I've been able to get from the ColorMunki.
I still think the ColorMunki or some setting is the highest suspect here.
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And yes, I've tried making profiles at lower luminance settings (as low as 60cd), but still no luck.
Another rabbit hole you didn't need to jump into. In fact, the lower you go, the more likely you'll run into further issues! Something those who advise such low levels are not understanding. There's a native backlight intensity and it can only go so low. And 60 cd/m^2 is REALLY low! Very few displays can target this natively meaning, the lower brightness has to be accomplished in the LUT, not in the panel and you gain nothing but banding and issues. Stay away from that rabbit hole: get the WP set first, then adjust the backlight until you get a visual match between display and print viewing station assuming that's your goal:
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2018, 07:24:27 pm »

But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?
Some (better, higher end) reference display systems conduct ALL this IN the panel hardware. That's the way to do it! That's how SpectraView (and Eizo) do it. It's how everyone should do it!
Ignore OSD; you don't have a choice it seems anyway with this display. Or find a product that handles all this correctly, in the panel, with mated software and better, a system like SpectraView where you can create multiple calibration settings and associated profiles! All to be loaded on the fly, when you need them, with the host software controlling the panel's electronics in the panel.
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Andrew Rodney
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2018, 07:32:40 pm »

Some (better, higher end) reference display systems conduct ALL this IN the panel hardware. That's the way to do it! That's how SpectraView (and Eizo) do it. It's how everyone should do it!


Lesson learned.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2018, 09:35:53 pm »

But let's say that I did have the OSD panel working? Why would that be helpful? Isn't it the job of the profile to tweek the monitor's calibration settings (gamma, temp, luminance) to what they should be. Why would I need to prep the monitor first with a dose of OSD manual gain adjustments?

Concerning regular OSD and what a profile is expected to do, you want a display that is in a state that is close to a standard for image editing. Those standards are a linear step wedge where each step (21 steps as an example) shows an even progression from black to white all neutral. 2.2 gamma is this standard that affects contrast to achieve this linear appearance. Brightness adjust just brightens equally from black all the way up the tonal scale to maintain this even progression of the 21 steps.

Most current displays fit this standard. My LG did not need very much adjustments except for Contrast (makes whites very bright and blacks very black) Brightness (just as I said before, it raises the overall brightness while maintaining contrast relationship.

If your Dell is that old using CFL backlighting technology, I'ld suggest you upgrade your display to an LED. As I indicated above the AOC is the lowest priced I've seen and the quality has gotten pretty good. Buy one if you can in a big box store so you can return it if it has screen non-uniformity. LED displays in general are very energy efficient (don't get hot like my CFL Dell did) and are quite stable and pretty much fit the standard outlined above.

Your ColorMunki colormeter still has to measure the color response of the display's close to standard condition because not all displays exhibit the same color gamut volume. Just because claims of certain percentages of AdobeRGB gamut doesn't indicate which of those colors are left out and which are included. Color managed previews are drawn on the screen by an A/B mapping system that adjusts the video card output to reflect what the display is doing to those colors in reference to CIELab standard. To go from point A to point B on a map with color managed previews, the display's color response has to be measured and that's what the profile aids in doing.

The profile can do two things...it can provide RGB bias correction present in a step wedge (this is the video LUT or vcgt) and it provides a description of its color characteristics not affected by what the LUT does to color when it neutralizes white balance biases.

You want all 8 bits working in your video card for each RGB and making the video card through software adjust brightness, contrast and white point reduces those bits.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 09:39:43 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #67 on: February 28, 2018, 01:12:01 am »

Update:

1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.

2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.

This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card.  I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #68 on: February 28, 2018, 01:30:38 am »

Update:

1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.

2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.

This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card.  I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.

Hard to say what's going on exactly. I can analyze more exactly what the errors are if you take a picture of the monitor image. Set your camera for F16 ISO 100 2 sec. and post the RAW file. Position the camera so that the strip goes across between 20% and 40% of the camera frame and shoot it head on in a darkened room.

I'll run it through dcraw in linear mode and post the results.

If possible a shot with a continuous gradient would be useful as well.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #69 on: February 28, 2018, 04:04:02 am »

Update:

1. I plugged my friend's Viewsonic monitor into my computer. I can see color seepage on it, too. More subtle than my Dell but noticeable, nonetheless. I also made a custom profile with the ColorMunki for the Viewsonic, but that didn't fix it either.

2. When the Viewsonic monitor is plugged into a different computer, I can see subtle color seepage, as well.

This rules out defects with the ColorMunki and graphics card.  I conclude that either the color seepage issue is an inherent problem with all "low end" monitors, or the problem is with how my brain interprets grayscale wedges. I know that sounds kooky, but I'm willing to accept the possibility that it's all in my head. Visual perception is a fabrication of the brain, after all.

Your vision is just fine. Your YouTube video clearly shows the color shifts in the step wedge highlights. This is not normal and has nothing to do with low end displays. I mean you paid $1500 for your Dell. I wouldn't say it's a low quality display. I paid $330 for my LG and as you can see it looks fine.

Have you ruled out the LUT loader? Can you clear it of any display profiles both in the loader and on your system (not familiar on how to do that on Windows)?

Then load the canned sRGB profile you posted that doesn't have a LUT to load. With a cleared LUT your display should not look yellow.

Is the Viewsonic yellowish without a LUT to load?
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #70 on: February 28, 2018, 05:05:09 am »

It gets weirder still.  After unplugging the Viewsonic monitor from my computer's 2nd DVI port, I examined my set of step wedges one more time and could not see any color seepage. I couldn't believe it, so I restarted my computer to see if it was a fluke. After restart, the color seepage has returned. I will take some snapshots like Doug requested. It doesn't make any sense.

My problem is not that my profile is too yellow.  My problem is a pinkish tint seepage in various shades of gray. Yes, I mentioned earlier that the native WP profile I made with the ColorMunki looked too yellow. But, I threw that profile away and made a new one with different settings.  The new native WP profile I am using now is a little warm but not yellow.  I also mentioned earlier that I liked the 5500K profile the best. Well, now that profile looks too magenta, so I tossed it.  The generic sRGB profile looks the best.  I feel like nothing is staying put and that each  new profile I build is influenced by previous profiles or whichever profile that was loaded at the time I made the new one. 

The color seepage problem is not as bad now as it was in the beginning, which makes me wonder if differences in monitor warm up times is partly to blame for the inconsistencies  . I'll remove extraneous profiles from the Windows Color Management pane, but I don't see how that hurts anything because only one profile can be selected as the default. I will research on how to identify and disable any LUT loaders working in the background that I dont know about.  X-rite Device Services Manager comes to mind.

Also, when I compare one profile to another I simply left click  on a new profile and then click the Make Default button. The colors always change, which convinces me the OS properly reloaded the new profile on the fly.  Although not sure if I should always restart after changing the default profile.  I hope not. That would take forever.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 09:53:55 am by texshooter »
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #71 on: February 28, 2018, 10:42:13 am »

It gets weirder still.  After unplugging the Viewsonic monitor from my computer's 2nd DVI port, I examined my set of step wedges one more time and could not see any color seepage. I couldn't believe it, so I restarted my computer to see if it was a fluke. After restart, the color seepage has returned. I will take some snapshots like Doug requested. It doesn't make any sense.
Not sure I understand the steps taken. You just unplugged and plugged it in and that temporarily fixed the leakage?

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My problem is not that my profile is too yellow.  My problem is a pinkish tint seepage in various shades of gray.
WB over magenta/green bias CAN be adjusted with some, higher end solutions like the already recommended i1Display Pro product (software). IF all your software allows is control over yellow/blue (color temp), you're not going to be able to do anything about a magenta cast.
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The color seepage problem is not as bad now as it was in the beginning, which makes me wonder if differences in monitor warm up times is partly to blame for the inconsistencies
How long does it take to show? 
You've spent a lot of time and have had a lot of frustrations due to this POS display from Dell. How much longer do you want to fight with it? Or run down rabbit holes? Time is money. Least expensive possible solution is to try renting an i1Display Pro but the absolute fix is to replace this awful display with something much better that was designed for this task, something like a NEC SpectraView with their software and a supported instrument, again ideally an i1Display Pro!
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #72 on: February 28, 2018, 02:04:22 pm »

Before you go off and buy a new display such as the very expensive NEC, I'ld suggest you sort out this LUT loader issue because if there's something going wrong with your Windows system and possibly how it influences or impedes calibration software, you're just throwing good money after bad.

You should not have put the Viewsonic on the second input. That introduced a variable that's well known with dual monitor setups on Windows systems concerning issues sharing graphic card LUT's and which one is dominant over the other. Macs can only show one white point (the corner point representing 255RGB) on a dual monitor setup but it can share the rest of LUT RGB bias curve adjusts down to black. So if one display has a custom target white point (255 curves like your blue channel pull down) and the other is native wp (no highlight pull down curves) the target better make the native look the same. It's a confusing mess which is why I don't do dual monitor setups. 27in. is plenty room to edit images for me.

So to press the point...One LUT, one input, one display at a time.

Don't be thrown by slight changes to white point hues as you work through this. You've now figured out it's not your display as the problem once you retest the Viewsonic on the same video input.
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #73 on: February 28, 2018, 02:15:00 pm »

Before you go off and buy a new display such as the very expensive NEC, I'ld suggest you sort out this LUT loader issue because if there's something going wrong with your Windows system and possibly how it influences or impedes calibration software, you're just throwing good money after bad.
Far more likely throwing good money at a superb product (own one?). And a product that has far more capabilities than the POS he's using today.
For some of us, pro's that is; time is money. Even at minimum wage, the OP has lost a lot of time and money, especially when chasing rabbits down holes.  :o
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #74 on: February 28, 2018, 02:25:31 pm »

Andrew, since you poke fun at me with my Walmart print matching evidence implicating me as having stock in Walmart, I'm going to accuse you of being way too close to NEC and Xrite products seeing you now have a featured article over on Xrite's site.

I'm just a hobbyist photographer who makes things work on a shoestring budget and it's been working for me this way for over 15 years. What's your excuse for not being able to help the OP?

Don't you have some convention you should be at shilling NEC and Xrite products?

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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #75 on: February 28, 2018, 02:27:29 pm »

IF this is the Dell 3007, when it first arrived back in 06, it cost 2,199 according to CNET. Ouch! The OP can pick up a 27" NEC PA for a good grand less than that today. WITH an instrument and software.
What's the saying about Penny wise and dollar foolish?
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #76 on: February 28, 2018, 02:33:45 pm »

IF this is the Dell 3007, when it first arrived back in 06, it cost 2,199 according to CNET. Ouch! The OP can pick up a 27" NEC PA for a good grand less than that today. WITH an instrument and software.
What's the saying about Penny wise and dollar foolish?

Can you confirm with evidence that the OP is not having issues with how Windows loads LUTs and whether the calibration software at some point during the measuring process is capable of clearing those LUTs or some other issue? Because a native wp should not have any adjustments to the 255RGB portion of the LUT curves.

Can you prove it's the display that is at issue?
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #77 on: February 28, 2018, 02:34:36 pm »

Andrew, since you poke fun at me with my Walmart print matching evidence implicating me as having stock in Walmart, I'm going to accuse you of being way too close to NEC and Xrite products seeing you now have a featured article over on Xrite's site.
Poking fun at you is due to your own misinformed posting. So I'll accuse you of being misinformed, an amateur as I've done and waiting the OP's time. You can accuse me of being a shill, OK with me; I speak about products I've worked with (sometimes with the actual companies who develop said products), own, use and can technically reply about their advantages AND disadvantages.
The major difference between us is that many companies within this industry search out for experts to provide peer review data about their products. Which is probably why you don't appear to have any such articles.
More differences between us:

Here's another major difference between us:
1. Did you graduate with a degee (with honors) in photography from one of the best schools in the country?
2. Did you get hand picked to shoot the Olympic Summer games and have access that only 50 other photographers did?
3. Did you shoot professionally for clients like Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Disney, Forbes, GTE, Smart & Final to name a few?
4. Were you on the board of the APA/LA or any such photography board?
5. Did you ever run a 'service bureau' making drum scans and output to film recorders for high end clients?
6. Did you write a book on color management?
7. Did you write dozens upon dozens of articles about color management for multiple publications?
8. Did you write dozens upon dozens of reviews of digital imaging hardware and software for multiple publications?
9. Have you published dozens of video's on the topic of color management and digital imaging?
10. Were you the tech editor of two photography publications?
11. Were you paid and sent all over the world to teach and lectrue at seminars about about color management and digital imaging?
12. Were you paid and sent all over the world to work with fortune 500 (some fortune 5 companies) or the US Government, on their color management and digital imaging workflows and issues?
13. Were you paid and sent all over the world to work with some of the largest color management companies and printing companies on their hardware and software products?
14. Were you a beta or alpha site for Adobe dating back to Photoshop 2.5, let alone many dozens of other companies making hardware and software for the imaging industry?
15. Did you get paid to speak on the subject of color management and imaging at PMA, DIMA, Photoshop World, PhotoPlus Expo, Thunder Lizards, Seybold?
16. Did you ever get paid to teach color management or imaging at workshops in Santa Fe, Vancouver, Aspen, Mendocino, Sydney?
17. Did you ever make your living as a color management consultant? Or even a professional advertising photographer? I suspect the answer is NO to all of the above!
Do you look silly arguing with someone who can answer yes to all the questions above? I'll let other's decide. I think you do!


I'm sorry that the above reality and facts, continues to ruin your life.

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Don't you have some convention you should be at shilling NEC and Xrite products?
Have you ever been asked to speak on the subject of imaging or photography at any convention and do you ever wonder WHY some pro's are asked to speak when you're not? Consider it bud.
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #78 on: February 28, 2018, 02:39:24 pm »

Can you prove it's the display that is at issue?
Your reading comprehension issues arise again! Do notice if you can, that I asked the OP to borrow another display to see if the issue sill exists, he stated he didn't have one. 
Clearly remote color management diagnostics isn't a skill you understand well; suggestions for evaluating the source of the issue was made long ago, and until those steps are followed, no, I can't prove anything other than a SpectraView is a vastly superior display system compared to the awful POS the OP is using. If you'd admit (or not) that you have a SpectraView, maybe your comment about it would hold a drop of water.
Without data, you're just another person with an opinion.
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Andrew Rodney
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #79 on: February 28, 2018, 02:39:46 pm »

Since time is money as you said, your list of qualifications indicate you shouldn't be wasting your valuable time talking to us rubes on an online forum.

Are you out of work?
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