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Author Topic: Does your profiled monitor do this?  (Read 7682 times)

texshooter

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Does your profiled monitor do this?
« on: February 18, 2018, 06:40:10 PM »


My monitor is profiled, but there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Is this normal?

see video here
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 06:58:14 PM »

My monitor is profiled, but there is a horrible alternating cyan/magenta color cast to grayscale step wedges. Is this normal?

see video here
No it isnít.
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Andrew Rodney
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 07:10:24 PM »

No it isnít.

But it only happens with step wedges. I notice no strange color casts at any other time. This is bizarre.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2018, 09:01:32 PM »

Does this show up creating the step wedge in Photoshop by posterizing set to 21 or whatever number on a black to white gradient?

Or is this a finished and saved step wedge that shows this in all color managed apps?

I can tell you I've never had this issue profiling my 27" LG LED using Colormunki Display.
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2018, 11:41:35 PM »

Does this show up creating the step wedge in Photoshop by posterizing set to 21 or whatever number on a black to white gradient?

Yes. Both CS4 and CC2018

is this a finished and saved step wedge that shows this in all color managed apps?

Yes.  Viewing the saved JPG image in the Chrome browser shows tint shifting, too.

When evaluating the step wedge print, sometimes I see a subtle color shift and sometimes I don't. Depends on how long I stare at it. My intuition is that the print is normal.

I have the latest ColorMunki Photo v1.2.4 software,  but the device was bought in 2009. Perhaps newer drivers don't work as well with older devices?   My monitor is a Dell 30" 3007wfp-hc, 1,000:1 contrast ratio,  92% NTSC, 2560x1600 res,  Windows 7

Either the Dell sucks or the ColorMunki does.  I guess I'll never know until I replace one of them.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 03:30:48 AM by texshooter »
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opgr

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 02:45:40 AM »

Either the Dell sucks or the ColorMunki does.  I guess I'll never know until I replace one of them.

You could make the profile available here for download, i'm sure some of the experts here can immediately tell if something is wrong within the profile.
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 04:31:48 PM »

You could make the profile available here for download, i'm sure some of the experts here can immediately tell if something is wrong within the profile.

Here is the Dell monitor icc profile if anyone cares to put it through the wash. I tried ICC Profile Inspector 2.4 but didn't know what anomalies to look for. Thanks.


« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 01:27:21 AM by texshooter »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 08:31:19 PM »

I think I found the problem. You're not using Dell's native white point and relying on Colormunki to set target white point through video card vcgt RGB LUT curve adjusts (see screengrab showing vcgt green channel which is the same as the red, but blue curve is really wonky).

I'll have to correct myself on my previous post and say I did have similar step wedge issues choosing target white point with Colormunki Display profiles on both my previous fluorescent backlit Dell and LG LED.

If you need to achieve a neutral white point on your Dell, I'ld suggest you adjust visually through the display's OSD RGB gains just as I had to do. The Colormunki may not see this as exact D65/6500K as written into the icc display profile but it won't affect overall memory colors that much except maybe slight luminance shifts in reds and blues in color managed previews. I haven't tested this because it's impossible to do so without a measuring device. My prints still match my monitor.

You can see what the Colormunki wrote in white point XY numbers loading the display profile as RGB Working Space in Photoshop's CustomRGB dialog box in Color Settings and plotting those numbers on a Plankian Locus diagram which should place the coordinates close to the area regarded as 6500K.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planckian_locus#/media/File:PlanckianLocus.png

My LG's XY numbers according to Colormunki says my white is slightly magenta-ish blue but it doesn't seem to affect color managed previews . Visually my white point has never looked more neutral. If I adjust RGB gains to get Colormunki Display to give me 6500K XY numbers read in Photoshop Color Settings CustomRGB, my display looks too green. But this red/green white point tint color war has been going on with Xrite products with my iMac, Dell and LG displays for years that I've been told drift from expected standard sRGB gamut and thus makes the colormeter see something different.

As I said before I still get screen to print matches on edited and finished Raw images.

Also make sure you're making a version 2 (not version 4) display profile.
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degrub

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 08:40:21 PM »

Wouldn't cataracts influence the perception on both print and screen as well ?
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 08:52:58 PM »

Wouldn't cataracts influence the perception on both print and screen as well ?

I don't know. I'm not an optometrist and I don't know what the effects of cataracts do to color perception. I was under the impression it made things look foggy or like tunnel vision.

It might be a separate LUT loader issue that's screwing up the step wedge since the OP is on a Windows system. Macs have their vcgt RGB video card correction curves built into the icc profile and load on startup as one file.
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 11:51:58 PM »

Tim,

Thank you for telling me about the ColorMunki's preferences settings. I completely forgot about them when I recently upgraded to the latest ColorMunki Photo software v1.2.4. 
After reading your reply, I changed the ColorMunki preferences (to as seen below) and made a second icc profile (attached). Unfortunately, I still get rainbow step wedges.

ColorMunki Preferences by texshooter, on Flickr


Let me unpack this.


1.  You said "You're not using Dell's native white point and relying on Colormunki to set target white point." 

     But isn't this the way it's suppose to work? Isn't the ColorMunki suppose to take control of my monitor and set its white point?    Are you saying there is something wrong with the Dell 3007 that makes it unresponsive to the ColorMunki's command to set the targeted white point?

2.  You said "If you need to achieve a neutral white point on your Dell, I'ld suggest you adjust visually through the display's OSD RGB gains just as I had to do"

     The Dell 3007 came with optional OSD software, but I never installed it because I wanted the ColorMunki and GPU duo to control my monitor.  (If I remember correctly, the Dell OSD software interfered with the ColorMunki software, but that was 10 yrs ago.)   Right now I only have two control buttons on the Dell  3007: one for brightness control and the other to power on/off.  Should I install this OSD software here and manually adjust the whiteness of the display to match what my eye thinks neutral white looks like?  And if I do that, the rainbow step wedge problem will be resolved?  I don't see how.

3.  You said "You can see what the Colormunki wrote in white point XY numbers loading the display profile as RGB Working Space in Photoshop's CustomRGB dialog box in Color Settings and plotting those numbers on a Plankian Locus diagram which should place the coordinates close to the area regarded as 6500K." 

     Per your instructions I changed the PS working space to the monitor's ICC profile (as shown below), but nowhere does PS show white point XY numbers. I don't follow.

PS monitor RGB by texshooter, on Flickr


4.  Please note that I use the ColorMunki Photo, not ColorMunki  Display. So I may not see the same control options that you do. For example, during the calibration setup the ColorMunki Photo instructs me to manually adjust the screen brightness to reach my target of 120cd/m2. But it does not give me hands-on control over the monitor's  color temperature. It simply asks me what temperature I want the ColorMunki to adjust the monitor to and it takes it from there.   Does your device instruct you to manually dial in (by OSD buttons) the monitor's color temperature to a target of 6500 kelvin? 

5.  Were you able to fix your rainbow step wedge problem on your Dell and LG? Or are you saying that despite this problem, your prints match your monitor, and so you didn't have a problem per se to fix?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 01:24:40 AM by texshooter »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2018, 02:00:30 AM »

Colormunki Display also asks to adjust for target Brightness, mine is at 100cd/m2. I have a selection for Native white point. see screengrab below.

I noticed you have ADC selected in Colormunki prefs so I'm wondering if your Dell uses internal hardware LUTs, but then the vcgt tags should've shown a flat line. Just for testing I'ld turn ADC off and that ambient stuff off. Keep it simple.

Also have you checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup. There's been issues in the past on this but I'm not familiar with current Windows or Mac OS in this regard.

The native white point selection in Colormunki is useless if you can't access the OSD RGB gains. Or you could choose native and accept the look of your current neutral white point. You should just do it this way just to check if it fixes the off color step wedge.

Quote
I tried changing the PS working space to the monitor's ICC profile (as shown below), but nowhere does PS show white point XY numbers. I don't follow.

Sorry for not being specific. Once you have your Dell profile as RGB working space click the menu again, hold and scroll up to CustomRGB... A dialog box will show up indicating white point XY numbers as measured by the Colormunki colormeter and written into the icc profile.

To rule out adaptation and surrounding light influences check there's no color in the current native state of your Dell by viewing a white screen filling the entire screen at night with the lights off. If you can't see any color tint, then your safe to set it to native in Colormunki. The colormeter will see native white as one specific tint that you will never see but the profling software will build RGB video card LUT curves and tweak each one to scale that neutral white tint throughout the rest of the gray tones all the way to black.

Quote
Right now I only have two control buttons on the Dell  3007: one for brightness control and the other to power on/off.  Should I install this OSD software here and manually adjust the whiteness of the display to match what my eye thinks neutral white looks like?  And if I do that, the rainbow step wedge problem will be resolved?  I don't see how.

You don't need to see how. Just remake the icc profile with target brightness, native white point, version 2 profile, and turn everything else off - ADC, ambient and whatever else. Don't even mess with the Dell software. It's a process of elimination so start out with the least options.

If that doesn't work reduce Brightness to read at 100cd/m2.

If that doesn't work then install and use the Dell OSD software and try that route.

If that doesn't work, use the Colormunki to profile another display using the simple native settings.

If that doesn't work, call Xrite support.

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Simon J.A. Simpson

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 02:32:47 AM »

Textshooter.  I notice that in your screenshot of Photoshop Colour Settings dialogue you have RGB Working Space set to the monitor profile.  You need to select a working colour space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB.  Trying to edit in a non-linear space like that from a monitor will give you no end of problems.  I donít know whether this is affecting your display problems.

I use a ColorMunki Photo on a Mac.  I set the white point to be D65, not the native point of the display.  I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC.  It may be that your Windows PC does things differently but I can vouch for the fact that these settings produce good results on an iMac.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 02:47:12 AM »

Textshooter.  I notice that in your screenshot of Photoshop Colour Settings dialogue you have RGB Working Space set to the monitor profile.  You need to select a working colour space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB.  Trying to edit in a non-linear space like that from a monitor will give you no end of problems.  I donít know whether this is affecting your display problems.

I use a ColorMunki Photo on a Mac.  I set the white point to be D65, not the native point of the display.  I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC.  It may be that your Windows PC does things differently but I can vouch for the fact that these settings produce good results on an iMac.

The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.

He knows not to set his RGB working space to his monitor space.

Quote
I do not use LUT to set the luminance of the display neither do I use ADC.

Good catch. I forgot to tell him to not use LUTs to adjust Brightness. Plumb forgot about that little piece of crap adjustment.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 02:50:36 AM by Tim Lookingbill »
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2018, 03:46:48 AM »

Thank you for the tips.  I will experiment with the settings and see what happens.  I've been using this Dell monitor for years and never noticed  color casts in my light grays when editing or viewing photos.  This issue I'm now having only arose after I learned how to build step wedges in PS last week. Ignorance is bliss. 
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 04:00:06 AM »

I noticed you have ADC selected in Colormunki prefs so I'm wondering if your Dell uses internal hardware LUTs, but then the vcgt tags should've shown a flat line.

ADC was disabled, Luminance by Video LUT was disabled, profile version 4 was selected, and 2.2 tone curve was selected when I made the first ICC profile (reply #6 attachment), the one you downloaded and tested.   My second ICC profile (reply #10 attachment) had ADC enabled, Luminance by LUT enabled, profile version 2 selected, and 2.2 tone curve selected,

Also have you checked to see if Windows is loading the video card LUTs upon startup?

I did not.  How do I check this? The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list.   If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup.  Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 04:32:59 AM by texshooter »
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TonyW

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 05:58:41 AM »

.....I did not.  How do I check this? The Dell ICC profile appears in the PS color settings> Working Space>RGB> drop down list.   If I remember right, the appearance of the monitor's ICC (the one by ColorMunki) in that drop down list means that Windows successfully launched it at startup.  Is that what you mean by "Windows loading the video card LUTs upon startup"?
You can check if your display is using your monitor profile in Color Management (either via Control Panel or typing Color management in search bar)

Your monitor should be identified as shown in first line, check box ticked and the name of current profile should show as default.  Should look similar to the attached (you can pretty much ignore the bottom image settings and leave as default)

Although X Rite default v4 profile it may be best to produce v2
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 11:30:43 AM by TonyW »
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digitaldog

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 10:30:26 AM »

Although X Rite default v4 profile it may be best to produce v2
It is best since V4 brings nothing useful to the party and can break in some applications.
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Andrew Rodney
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 12:26:20 PM »

The OP has his RGB working space set to his monitor display profile because I told him to for temporary reasons in order to scroll up to CustomRGB... to see the white point XY numbers Colormunki measured on his display.

He knows not to set his RGB working space to his monitor space.


Tim is correct. I did that only to find the XY white point numbers. I do it also to verify that Windows launched the correct monitor ICC profile at start up and to confirm that PS sees it, but I don't select it there.   Except for bundled Microsoft apps (such as Windows Photo Viewer),  Windows 7 relies on third-party apps lik PS to properly  utilize the  monitor's default ICC profile.  I believe Windows just parks the default ICC somewhere the app can easily access it, but don't quote me on that.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 12:55:05 PM by texshooter »
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texshooter

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Re: Does your profiled monitor do this?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 12:52:51 PM »

(you can pretty much ignore the bottom image settings and leave as default)

I'm relieved to here you say that.  I was getting worried after reading the following threads by some pretty angry Windows users.

Windows Default Device Profile

'Use Windows Display Calibration' checkbox
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